(In)Equality of the Sexes

DamaNegra · Jan 11, 2009

http://www.sheboyganpress.com/article/20090109/SHE0101/901090467/1973/SHE0201

A 17-year-old Sheboygan girl was charged Thursday with misdemeanor sexual assault for allegedly having sex with her 14-year-old boyfriend. [...] She faces a maximum of nine months in jail, if convicted.
[snip]
On Wednesday, Alan J. Jepsen, 17, of 1416 New York Ave., was charged for allegedly having sex with a 14-year-old girl who he claimed told him she was 16. Jepsen is facing a count of felony second-degree sexual assault, which carries a maximum prison term of 25 years.
[snip]
Haasch also said the cases are different because Guthrie's boyfriend is "almost 15," with a birthday in February. Jepsen's girlfriend turns 15 in April.

I found this article to be really interesting. It seems that many of the discussions about teen sex and virginity always end up in some variant of how virginity is expected of women but not men, etc. I'm not going to repeat that here.

But I'd never stopped to consider the other side of the coin. Boys getting harsher punishment than girls for the same sex crime. It's funny, isn't it? Somehow, the responsibility of initiating sex always falls on the guys, while it is usually thought that girls never initiate those acts, they just have the power to say 'no'. It's really funny how all these things are so deeply ingrained in our subconscious, we don't even notice them.

Any thoughts on this?

maestrowork · Jan 11, 2009

It gets even more interesting if it's two boys.

petec · Jan 11, 2009

Girl with skirt up can run faster than boy with trousers down

Clair Dickson · Jan 11, 2009

With these two cases, it's hard to say it's really a male/female thing. Michigan law and precedent have long made a distinction between 14 year olds, fifteen year olds and other underage kids having sex. If two kids under sixteen have sex, the one who's older, even if by days or weeks, is the one who'll be charged.

I don't think the law is really protecting anyone anymore. Not only that, it's doing more harm than good. It's being abused. It should end up like that old Michigan law (if i recall correctly) that prohibits sex in anything other than the missionary position. No one enforces it. No one would ever be able to rewrite the law because... well, that's a volatile issue.

Cassiopeia · Jan 11, 2009

I can't help but wonder if it's harder mainly because sometimes these things take time to catch up and in the past it was generally viewed that a boy/man can physically over power a girl/woman but typically not the other way around.

And in the past (maybe a little today) it would be laughed at to think a man would object to having sex pushed at him. There seems to be this assumption that a man could easily get away thus making it hard for a woman to rape him.

The bias is clear enough, alright. It's just going to take time to change that.

Thump · Jan 11, 2009

Meh, same crime, same punishment I say. Even if I'm a woman, a feminist and this works out to the girls' advantage. It's just one more proof that we're not taken seriously, even when we're being bad. Grr! *Burns bra*

Seriously though, what does a 17 year old girl see in a 14 y-o boy? Ewww, there's like 20 years of maturity's difference in between

DamaNegra · Jan 11, 2009

Clair Dickson said:
With these two cases, it's hard to say it's really a male/female thing. Michigan law and precedent have long made a distinction between 14 year olds, fifteen year olds and other underage kids having sex. If two kids under sixteen have sex, the one who's older, even if by days or weeks, is the one who'll be charged.

Well, both offenders were 17, and the kids they had sex with were both 14. A two-month difference in birth times (February vs. April? please) is not even halfway credible, in my opinion.

Thump said:
Meh, same crime, same punishment I say. Even if I'm a woman, a feminist and this works out to the girls' advantage. It's just one more proof that we're not taken seriously, even when we're being bad. Grr! *Burns bra*

Isn't feminism about women getting equal rights? I'd be wary of any feminist that would think it is a good idea that females get less punishment for the same crime.

Thump said:
Seriously though, what does a 17 year old girl see in a 14 y-o boy? Ewww, there's like 20 years of maturity's difference in between

Agreed. Although I know plenty of really cool 14-year olds, I'd never date any of them.

Clair Dickson · Jan 11, 2009

Sorry-- it was late. It didn't process that there's only a three month difference.

Sometimes, we're not so far from the idea that women aren't mentally capable of crime. I wouldn't be surprised if the judge (isn't it the same judge in both cases?) thinks that the guy must have talked the girl into it, regardless of age. Which isn't necessarily the case (I know quite a few sexually aggressive women. =)

Though the other question is-- what were the circumstances of the kids getting caught. Who reports that their 14 year old son has been sexually assualted by an older woman (girl)? My first thought is that some parents want this girl punished/ gone and the judge figures that she only had sex because the guy wanted to. Where as with the younger girl, then it "must" be because the guy was taking advantage of her young age. Or so the thinking apparently goes.

Honestly, who reports that their kid is having sex... unless they're trying to get rid of the other party. I still think this law needs to just quietly go away. Or maybe just make it equitable for all kids still of high school age (not just 18, but those who's graduating class has not graduated yet, I think would be a good dividing line.) If you both have sex, you're both "guilty." Maybe then it'll stop being a vindictive thing for parents or scorned lovers to use against the other.

maxmordon · Jan 11, 2009

They are the classic views of society regarding sex. Men are the ones who are the aggresive or at least expected to be agressive, incite the sexual relationship while women are the ones expected to be the passive, the ones beloved on a pedestal convinced by some mortal men to do the beast of two backs and this classical view can be seen here.

This reminds me an article I read about a Homosexual woman who pretended to be a man for about a year and a half. She worked in an office, joined a bowling team, went into a monastery and even a men-only therapy. And, paraphrasing what I remember of her opinion, while women had fought to not be the "Mother" anymore men were still trapped to be the "Father", that mean, the natural-born leader, the fighter, the provider and that sex wasn't something much of desire among men but it was a bit of a duty, you're expected to be sexual aggresive and if you aren't you're automatically assume to be less of a man than others.

Siddow · Jan 11, 2009

A guy has to 'participate' a bit more than a girl does, know what I mean? Are there ANY adult (age-wise, not content-wise, lol) cases of a woman being convicted of raping an adult male?

As far as the statutory charges, I think sentences should be evened out whether the older person was male or female, and solely based on the age of the younger participant. When I was in high school, we all got a huge fright when one party (the male) of a VERY popular couple went to juvvie for statutory rape. 'Cause we all knew they both consented, and it was the first glimpse for a lot of us that what we were doing was illegal. We knew it was illicit and groovy (lol), but illegal? Who knew!

Monkey · Jan 11, 2009

Yes, there are cases of women raping men. The penis can react to physical stimulation even when the guy is saying no.

I don't really want to google it in present company, but I remember a case, not so long ago, of a woman who showed up on MSN's "Wonderful World" section for having her dog cloned. It turned out that she was the same woman who, years before, had gotten a crush on a guy in her college class and when he went overseas to study, she followed him. Once there, she fabricated a story to get into his home, tied him up, and kept him there for days, repeatedly raping him.

Weird, but it happens.

Back on the OP, I'm sure that there's a disparity between prosecution of males and females for these sorts of sex crimes. But it's hard to compare one case to another because each case is individual...there are going to be details and intent to consider, and things like the quality of the lawyers involved are going to have an effect. If you have different judges, different counties, or especially different states, then it's really difficult to make any sort of comparison at all.

As for the law, I figure they ought to break it into age categories AND have exceptions for people less than three years different in age. If two thirteen-year-olds have sex, I don't think either of them should face actual, criminal charges. Geesh.

DamaNegra · Jan 11, 2009

maxmordon said:
They are the classic views of society regarding sex. Men are the ones who are the aggresive or at least expected to be agressive, incite the sexual relationship while women are the ones expected to be the passive, the ones beloved on a pedestal convinced by some mortal men to do the beast of two backs and this classical view can be seen here.

This reminds me an article I read about a Homosexual woman who pretended to be a man for about a year and a half. She worked in an office, joined a bowling team, went into a monastery and even a men-only therapy. And, paraphrasing what I remember of her opinion, while women had fought to not be the "Mother" anymore men were still trapped to be the "Father", that mean, the natural-born leader, the fighter, the provider and that sex wasn't something much of desire among men but it was a bit of a duty, you're expected to be sexual aggresive and if you aren't you're automatically assume to be less of a man than others.

Yeah, I find that funny, too. That women's rights have gone such a long way but, really, men are still trapped in the same stereotypes as they were 80 years ago. That sucks for them too, but no one seems to care since they've always had the 'status quo', so it is automatically assumed that they are having a great time, while in reality the roles cast upon them by society are equally restrictive and harmful.

Clair Dickson said:
Honestly, who reports that their kid is having sex... unless they're trying to get rid of the other party. I still think this law needs to just quietly go away. Or maybe just make it equitable for all kids still of high school age (not just 18, but those who's graduating class has not graduated yet, I think would be a good dividing line.) If you both have sex, you're both "guilty." Maybe then it'll stop being a vindictive thing for parents or scorned lovers to use against the other.

Yes but how do you prove the younger teen really consented to having sex? It could've been a "no... no..." "too late" kind of thing, if you know what I mean. As you said, the best thing is to let these laws quietly disappear. I used to joke that I would have sex with my boyfriend the day before he turned 18 (I'm a year older than him), just to make it illegal. Can a scenario like that even be prosecuted? It's just stupid. What happens between the 23rd of June and the 24th of June to make young Billy magically fit to make decisiones regarding his sexuality?

Siddow said:
A guy has to 'participate' a bit more than a girl does, know what I mean? Are there ANY adult (age-wise, not content-wise, lol) cases of a woman being convicted of raping an adult male?

Man 'gang-raped' by 3 women. Notice the '' around gang-rape, like it was a joke or something (but to be fair, it does sound funny)
Woman rapes man in Stockholm. I'm still not sure how one can perform oral sex against a man's will, unless you tie him down first, but okay.
5 woman rape a man Any 'he had it coming' comments?
Guy raped in San Francisco. Obviously, no one believes him.

You know what the sad thing is? These men may be genuinely traumatized by the rapes, yet people are just going to laugh at them and say: "you got sex, man! what are you complaining about?"

veinglory · Jan 11, 2009

The same crime is usually different in ways other than gender. There may be elements contributing to the sentence other than those mentioned. For example the mental maturity of the younger participant is formally assessed. So in this case those few months may have implications or the ability to give informed consent.

Captshady · Jan 11, 2009

Well, life's a bitch. Equality on all levels can't ever happen because we're genetically different. Equality as far as "women's rights" is limited to respect and opportunity. We're different, plain and simple.

katiemac · Jan 11, 2009

Isn't feminism about women getting equal rights? I'd be wary of any feminist that would think it is a good idea that females get less punishment for the same crime.

Actually, it's more accurate to say [some forms of] feminism is about women and men having the same rights. It's a small distinction, but a worthwhile one when it comes to situations like these.

kuwisdelu · Jan 11, 2009

I was never the biggest fan of statutory laws to begin with, but this is just ridiculous.

My first time was statutory too. Apparently, I'm a victim?

DamaNegra · Jan 11, 2009

kuwisdelu said:
I was never the biggest fan of statutory laws to begin with, but this is just ridiculous.

My first time was statutory too. Apparently, I'm a victim?

Yes. You should sue.

DamaNegra · Jan 11, 2009

katiemac said:
Actually, it's more accurate to say [some forms of] feminism is about women and men having the same rights. It's a small distinction, but a worthwhile one when it comes to situations like these.

The problem I have with most forms of feminism is exactly that: make things better for women while keeping the men at the same level. I'm strong enough to be CEO of a huge company but not strong enough that you don't have to hold the door open for me. Sure, I like it when people hold the door open for me, but if I'm the first one to reach the door, you bet I'm going to hold it open for everyone instead of standing around waiting for someone to do it for me (and when I'm feeling lazy, I can always let the guy get to the door first).

kuwisdelu · Jan 11, 2009

DamaNegra said:
Yes. You should sue.

Somehow, I think that would hurt our relationship...

Cyia · Jan 11, 2009

Statutory laws are good - to a point. You have a 37 year old hopping into bed with a 15 year old, lock his/her butt up. You have a 17 year old who gets caught with his one week shy of 17 year old girlfriend... no so much.

Zoombie · Jan 11, 2009

Basically, we need more spirit than letter in our laws, I think.

Tirjasdyn · Jan 12, 2009

DamaNegra said:
Any thoughts on this?

Remember the good old days when you just forced them to get married first?

oh wait.

We watched Hot Dog this weekend, an early eighties skier flick. The main character was a 20 something skier and his hitchhiker girlfriend was 17.

There was lots of sex, and it was a comedy....can you even make this movie anymore?

MissKris · Jan 12, 2009

DamaNegra said:
Yeah, I find that funny, too. That women's rights have gone such a long way but, really, men are still trapped in the same stereotypes as they were 80 years ago. That sucks for them too, but no one seems to care since they've always had the 'status quo', so it is automatically assumed that they are having a great time, while in reality the roles cast upon them by society are equally restrictive and harmful."

I have to jump in and comment on this one because it is an issue close to my heart. I was a Women's Studies major at one of the top 5 programs in the country and we spent time studying ALL gender constructs, not just "woman."

Here's the thing: Why hasn't there been a Men's Movement? I absolutely agree that the roles cast on men are restrictive - I wouldn't want to be one (a man, that is) - and I care about the men in my life and want them to be happy. However, when women decided they'd had enough, they didn't just wait around for things to change and they certainly didn't wait for men to just drop their ideas about women. It was a long, hard fight and, in some arenas, women still haven't caught up. Men are their own worst enemy, propagating the image of man - so where's the big "Yes we can!" from the guys?

So, men, why are you hanging back? The acceptable image for men is razor-thin, you tend to get the short stick when it comes to custody battles, there is little support for stay-at-home dads, etc. I occasionally see a tiny step in the right direction, for example, when companies offer "parental leave" instead of "maternity leave", but it isn't much.

Back on topic, I think that there tends to be a feeling that girls are the victim when it comes to sex. Why? Girls have to be saddled with a pregnancy/child (should that happen) and the social stigma of "slut," et al. That doesn't mean it's fair, I just think that's the perception, and that perception leads to lenient sentences for girls.

(In)Equality of the Sexes

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