The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

marketing info

Yeah, they can, but what they post on their website should be what they do or else it can come down to it's false advertising and/or misleading information

Click to expand...

---True....but only if the right side wins. Just because you take somebody to court doesn't guarantee you'll make an example out of them---

The problem with the judicial system, "in any civilized country", is that it protects the guilty as well as the innocent. Seeing as P.A. keeps expanding, I'm pretty sure they could hire a half decent team of lawyers to quash any problem 'Joe average' might have.
.....and can probably fill the courts with motions and appeals till the other party dies or the company goes bankrupt

PA and Agents

KW, that was an interesting link to the PA agent information. In effect, PA's notice that " PublishAmerica, Inc. pays no fees to agents when we accept their clients' works. We are not in the referral fee business at all. Whatever money you make on representing your clients is, and should be, based on the particular agreement that you have with them." effectively states that they won't work with legitimate agents who are paid commissions based upon sales to publishers, but will work with scam agents who charge representation fees up front to authors.

Re: marketing info

>>I'm pretty sure they could hire a half decent team of lawyers to quash any problem 'Joe average' might have.
.....and can probably fill the courts with motions and appeals till the other party dies or the company goes bankrupt<<

Questionable agents and publishers like to threaten legal action, but they rarely follow through. For one thing, legal action is expensive. For another, it involves discovery--which cuts both ways. They don't want to risk exposing their business dealings to the light of day.

- Victoria

Re: marketing info

I will echo Victoria's response. Several "agents" and "publishers" have threatened P&E/me with a lawsuit. In some instances, I have simply ignored them and nothing happened. In other cases, I told them I was looking forward to it as my side would have discovery and invited them to ask their lawyer what that meant. So far, eight years of operating P&E and not one lawsuit.

Of course, it doesn't keep some of them from initiating smear campaigns. However, that's just plain stupid on their parts because it provides more evidence that can be used against them later if anything ever does go to court.

Re: marketing info

O.K. Dave,... you be the echo...I'll be the re-verb.(lol)
These responses are obviously a flip of what I tried to describe..... I'm talking about one individual trying to take on P.A. .... The "individual" being the instigator. Obviously a larger company could sue one single person, if they wanted to, but what would they get out of it. "Nothing" ...and, don't be fooled, if they want to cover something up, they'll find a way.(I know its possible) The legal system is also a chess game.


This is also why (I hope) that a larger group of people, (former authors or anybody with a grudge) will band together and hit companies like P.A. where it hurts. Yes it costs money, it'll involve a hell of a lot of research and time ...something places like P.A. bank on.:smack

lawyers

I'll fourth Victoria, Dave, and What... .

It's not just expense...

Litigation is not just about discovery, expense... etc. That is only one ingredient to an otherwise complex issue. I did file suit against PA. I went to talk to lawyers and I had the money to do it. I had legitimate complains about promises that were not followed through. I had a manuscript in my hands that was finalized and never used. (To date my novel is unedited and selling that way) I had considerable loss of consideration with regard to self-promotion. I had PA web site printed pages. I had all the things that every single author who has every complained about PA had. I even had proof of sales made after the release of my book. With all that, and much more abusive business e-mails, I couldn’t get it done. Every single lawyer (Believe me there were several) in the business as well as the Attorney General told me that "legally," I have absolutely no case against PA. It's how the law is written in Maryland.

Some people say we are "smearing" PA or that we are simply not doing anything or that no lawsuit had been filed, is simply wrong. Some of us tried our best to get something done, and was simply extinguished. I for one, talk about PA because authors do read these message boards. I know for a fact that I have stopped authors who want the benefits of major publishing and had contacted PA for a contract. They were more educated in their choices. That's what I'm about...not smearing. It's about Education.

I agree and have been told that the only way for this to become a case against PA is if everyone banned together. I don’t see that happening any time soon on the horizon.

:head

One more additional fact: I looked in the library of congress to see if any PA author was registered while I was in that part of the country. Guess what? None, nada, nothin, not gonna happen.

This is a bummer

BeckEaston's story implies that PA's actions are legal. I'm not sure that a class action suit would work any better than a single individual going up against them. I guess the only thing to do is to keep warning people and try to undercut their potential customers.

It's not just expense...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Every single lawyer (Believe me there were several) in the business as well as the Attorney General told me that "legally," I have absolutely no case against PA. It's how the law is written in Maryland.<hr></blockquote>
Becca, in a case like that where you have copyright infringement, you don't need to submit to Maryland law. You, the aggrieved author, can have the case brought to your home state. Trust me on this one.

Re: marketing info

I wish someone would educate these poor people....

They all have this thing in their head that it's THEIR responsibility to sell their books. That money to market them should come out of their own pocket, since they saved so much money by publishing with PA. Uhg.

Not that an author shouldn't promote their work, but the woman with the legitimate questions is being fed the company line by the other authors. I hope she doesn't swallow it.www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6199.htm

Damnit....P.A. seems to win

I know for a fact that I have stopped authors who want the benefits of major publishing and had contacted PA for a contract. They were more educated in their choices.

Click to expand...

---Good for you Beck,.... its a start, that's what counts....!:thumbs

Some of us tried our best to get something done, and was simply extinguished

Click to expand...

----This resorts back to my 'Joe/Jane average comment' ....odds are against him/her

......all of this is starting to sound like a comment I made a while back,..... maybe the system should be reviewed and revised. Instead of going after companies, go after the legislation that makes their actions legit. I don't know how hard that is, (nor do I want a 10 page/posting discussion on it) , but are there any brief comments on this?

PA dealings are legal...

The only thing that continues to surprise me is that after everything has been said and done, authors are amazed that PA still is misleading people. The legal fact is that they are marketing under the Maryland’s Law (Where they do business) legally. Hate to say it, but it's true.

My state recognizes Maryland Law. In addition, I as the bereaved author, am a company in the eyes of this law. Try filing company to company in court. It has to be civil and frankly, there hasn’t been a lawyer who will touch it yet with the evidence they've received thus far. There isn't enough compensation in it for them. Period. It's not worth those blood sucking humans conscious to do it to help someone. (Can ya tell they are beginning to piss me off?) They want money! So, legal action sometimes just doesn’t work.

Thanks though for the support.

PA dealings are quasi-legal... at best

And that, my friends, is why PA and their trolls frequent these forums in an attempt to undermine any watchdog site they can because that is the only real opposition they face at present.

If you want to do your writer friends a real favor, always recommend to them that they check out Writer Beware, Absolute Write, Writer's Net, Speculations, P&E, and others before they sign on with any publisher. Also, ask them to pass that on to any new writers they meet. We're not asking for their money. We're not stealing their rights. We're not stopping them from being published. We're just offering the truth about the industry from the top to the scummy bottom so that writers can swim these waters safely.

You can pursue legal action against PA

Our law firm will pursue whatever legal action we feel is necessary against PublishAmerica. We have a basis for a civil suit. It will cost time and money and patience.

However I am begining to feel like a vulture. "Patience? .. Hell.... I'm going to kill something."

You know I was just thinking. And this may be way off base, BUT.... One of the problems with pursuing any legal action through the attorney general's office in Md is that the complaintiff, that's the authors, has to show that they have been monetarily deprived, PA took something of value from the authors under alledgedly false pretenses.

Now PA makes a huge big deal on their website, correspondence, email and I believe the ad on the NYT although I haven't seen that, that PublishAmerica is a traditional publisher, just like Random House. PA is very selective in the manuscripts they select. PA does not, oh no, no, no, accept anything that comes across the their virtual desks. Miranda Prathers said they reject 80% of the manuscripts submitted to them. They read every word before they accept a book for publication. Just like traditional publishers.

So it would seem to me (this is not legal advice) that any manuscript they accept would have the value of the average first time book accepted by, oh perhaps a Random House? Or a Harlequin, or a Penguin?

Anybody have any hard data on what advances are for a debut novel by a "traditional" house. Not just any house, but a major house since that's who PA compares themselves with.

Think about the beauty of this logic. PA can't say the book doesn't have any value because that would contradict everything on their website. And they can't admit that the manuscript is only worth $1.00 because they are very clear that $1.00 they pay as an advance is only a symbolic advance.

They can't say these are first time authors and they couldn't and wouldn't be published by a big house so the books aren't worth anything. They can't say the sales of any particular PA book are so low that it proves that particular PA book doesn't have value because the sales are low because bookstores won't shelve PA books.

They can't say the books have no value because they are badly written, they can't say the books have no value because of poor quality. Or that they are poorly edited, or badly designed covers, or that book reviewers won't review the books.

So, what's the average advance for a debut novel?

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com

You can pursue legal action against PA

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>They read every word before they accept a book for publication. Just like traditional publishers.<hr></blockquote>
If they do, they must read it over and over and over again or suffer from serious short-term memory. Sorry, Kevin, I just couldn't resist. <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif" />

Re:

I can think of a certain manuscript that would give you that feeling after the first thirty pages...

Andrea eace

Author's must make their best judgement...

I think that the best conclusion from this very appropriate discussion with regard to PA should suggest to new authors and past alike, that they should seek council advice before concluding business as "lessoned learned" with PA. Every single legal case is different. None of us here are lawyers. (Well-said Dee!) Each case has it's own merit according to the state in which you live. If you feel violated, taken advantage of, mislead, a victim of fraud or whatever your concern is, then you need to seek appropriate support for your cause. The main thing to remember is that just like any other crime, publishing companies who treat authors the way that I have been witness to, will continue to do so time and time again, until the day someone shouts, 'Its not going to happen anymore!' I think Dee is doing a wonderful job at it. I hope that others follow her example regardless of what is posted here.

eace

Re: P.A. Authors resting easy after LIGHTNING SOURCE POST

One author managed to get some answers from 'Lightning Source' web site post which made him breath a little easier. With a few authors were relieved, but, still asking questions, about the recent P.O.D. Ingram stocking demise................

Quote:"

New Ingram Stocking Strategy Announced
We are pleased to announce that Ingram Book Group and Lightning Source (LSI) are initiating a new program for the stocking and fulfillment of LSI books. This new stocking initiative embraces a true print-on-demand inventory model - sell the book, then print the book.

Since the inception of Lightning Source seven years ago, Ingram supported the development and growth of the print-on-demand industry by stocking copies of on-demand books. Initially, on-hand stock needed to be shown to avoid retailer-ordering issues. Because of the amount of time it took for a traditional order to process, sometimes weeks, retailers often would not place backorders for books when there wasn't sufficient stock on hand at the wholesaler. Many retailers have selected to block backordering in their ordering systems, even though on-demand books were being printed in a few days.

Ingram, until recently, worked around these problems by buying at least two copies of LSI books (often on a non-returnable basis). This practice helped overcome most retailer backordering issues and allowed Ingram to maintain regular service levels. However, the cost of this practice became prohibitive, as the library of LSI's titles grew to more than 150,000. At the same time, LSI's manufacturing capabilities advanced to the point that many books are now manufactured in less than 24 hours. Consequently, the timing is right to evolve to a business model that is more in line with the original vision for print-on-demand.

What is the new strategy?
While it will take several months to implement, the new strategy is designed to take full advantage of the promise of print on demand. With the rapid turn around available today from LSI, inventory can be manufactured and sent to Ingram for order consolidation and shipment on a next-day basis from Nashville. Books will be printed as they are ordered, and all LSI titles will display as active and available for ordering from Ingram and on iPage. Backordering of these titles will not be necessary. Ingram will continue to stock certain titles with a demonstrated sale history under their standard stocking policies. These titles will continue to be available for same-day delivery.

Addressing the backordering concern, the new program will also ease the ordering of multiple copies of books. Under the old minimum on-hand system, if enough copies were not shown, larger orders would require a backorder, once again creating a hurdle for those retailers with "no backorder" policies. The new system is designed to increase sales by filling every order, without delay, at the exact quantity desired by the retailer.

When is the new plan expected to be in place?
It is our intent to have the plan fully implemented by the end of the first quarter of 2005. In the meantime a transition strategy is being implemented immediately to stock on-demand books that have proved sales, and all new titles as they are added into the library.

What is happening in the meantime?
During the transition period, and to support inventory needs in the upcoming holiday season, LSI will fund the printing of at least one copy of all new books and any currently out of stock books with a recent sale history. These books will be placed in inventory at Ingram. Each time Ingram sells the books they will be reordered and this sale "reorder cycle" will continue. LSI will credit the publisher the standard publisher compensation (wholesale price less the cost of printing) for each Ingram sale. This is an interim plan that will be in effect until all LSI books are fully integrated into the new inventory strategy in the first quarter 2005. All titles will continue to be available through Ingram and our other distribution partners.

During this time of transition, it is important to note that your titles will remain available and orderable at Ingram. Thank you for your patience during this time of transition as we work to keep your titles available. We will continue to keep you informed and post regular updates on our website. " ----(wait for comment)---
:head

Debut Advance

Hi, Dee and others.

It's obviously impossible to give any hard and fast figures for debut advances, but this has been my experience on the subject.

1. Debut advance for a brand new s.f. or fantasy author is usually in the 5000 range, give or take 2000. I've heard of lower advances being offered, but not usually by major publishers.

2. Debut advance for a category romance book can be lower. I've heard that Harlequin/Silhouette offer only a couple a of thousand routinely. Of course, once you get into the more distinguished romance imprints, the advance goes up significantly, even for a brand-new author.

3. Mystery advances seem, from what I have heard, to start out higher than either s.f. or romance. I've heard figures of 8000 and up. But I'm not as familiar with the business end of mystery books as I am with romance or s.f./fantasy.

4. I have no idea about the beginning advance for horror, techno-thriller, westerns, suspense, or literary novels. Maybe James MacDonald does? Jim?

-Ann C. Crispin

Maryland Attorney General

FYI, I checked with the Maryland Attorney General's office yesterday, and the complaints against Erica House/Publish America are beginning to mount up. They've more than doubled since last year.

I think the challenge I posted a couple of months ago may be having an effect.

Also...the AG's office seemed a great deal more interested in the PA case than they ever had before when I spoke to them. I can't reveal what was said, of course, but I am encouraged. I also finally got a name for someone connected with this case. Beth Silverman

So, if you have been considering writing to the Maryland Attorney General's Office, but haven't done so yet, I believe now is the time.

Here is the address:

Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Protection Division
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202

Attn: Beth Silverman

May I also suggest that if you have written before and have not heard back, that you write again, this time to Ms. Silverman's attention?

For suggestions on what subjects to cover in your professional, cogent, well-written and NON-RANTING letter, see my previous post on the subject, made a couple months ago. If some kind person would look it up and re-post it, I'd be most grateful. I use Aol and for some reason I can't cut and paste that kind of stuff.

Best,

-Ann C. Crispin
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com

Listen to Ann...Please

Ann, thank you so much. I have been telling everyone to do the same. I went to Maryland this past month and spoke to a person at the Attorney General's office as well. My contact was Larry Munsen originally. So I want to encourage everyone on this forum to resubmit their evidence to her contact. The old contact information I had will be listed below. It's important to every new author as well as every single person that has been caught up in this mess to be heard!

Here was the old contact information that appears to be no longer effective. If you have sent your information to this person/address please resubmit to Ann's new contact.


Old Information:
State Of Maryland
Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Protection Division-Mr. Larry E Munson
138 East Antietam Street, Suite 210
Hagerstown, Maryland 21740-5684

Ann's New Information:
Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Protection Division-Beth Silverman
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202

:clap

re:Listen to Ann...Please

Right on!

Looks like the cans of "whoop ass" are being stocked on the shelves....!!!>:

Where do we go from here?

This entire experience has been getting to me lately and is definitely effecting my creativity. I can't help but wonder if my book is even worth pitching elsewhere. Granted, I have had positive feedback from readers who have read excerpts and positive feedback from a few unpublished authors who have read the MS, but I have had zero input from any "professionals" and I am left to wonder if the MS has potential for sale elsewhere. I'm at a place where I'm wondering about breaking my contract. Of course, why bother if it isn't suitable for print elsewhere?
My current project has already received positive feedback from an editor I am looking to pitch to, so I suppose I'm not exactly a hack. But, I am so disheartened of late that I can't even work on my current project.
Anyone up for an interesting read out there and willing to give feedback?

Always interested...

Absolutely! There are a great many professionals on this board. Betty and Ann are just some. Give them an opportunity to evaluate based on their extensive credentials. No matter what though, don't get down. PA did that to me a while back and I can tell ya, I had such a hard time getting my confidence back. Read books, join a writing workshop, and look at book clubs for verbal inspiration or anything you can do that might help. For one, stop looking at all the negative publicity. That only makes it worse. I had to pull myself from this PC and the boards for a long time to regain the creativity that PA sucks out of people. Don't let them do that to you - to your craft - and to your ability to get the career in writing you deserve. That would be tantamount to criminal. Take some time, go out into the world and regain whatever inspired you in the first place. I would be willing to read the book too. Whatever will help?

Page 131! If You think you have a case...Get your rights back! Don't let them keep your book. Get it done now!

Good luck to you. Chin up, smile...we're all here with you.

Soon to be another regular here?

I've noticed among the pearls sent to me that Hipwitch is quoting James Macdonald's very apt phrase that money flows to the author. I suspect she's another good author who will soon realize that PA isn't for her.

By the way, Dee, you should offer a comment to Publish America Yes or No? about PA's logo under their name. After all, you can prove that logo is a lie since they haven't paid you and a number of other authors for books that you know were sold.