Gone With the Wind

I'm with you, SP, Rhett abusive? I thought he had the patience of a saint to put up with Scarlett for as long as he did.

Re: Wade - he was in the book, not the movie. She barely knew Charles, got knocked up ASAP then the poor guy died in the war.

Carlene

Carlene said:

I'm with you, SP, Rhett abusive? I thought he had the patience of a saint to put up with Scarlett for as long as he did.

Re: Wade - he was in the book, not the movie. She barely knew Charles, got knocked up ASAP then the poor guy died in the war.

Carlene

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What's funny is he didn't get to fight. He died in camp before even seeing any action. Unless I'm confusing the movie with the book.

Love it. My favorite book. I love Scarlett because she is unapologetically ambitious and hard headed...traits that aren't always the best, but they got her what she needed to survive and make for a damn interesting story. And I always feel so upset in the last third of the book, when she is totally blind to how Rhett is watching her, waiting for her to return his love...

I've read both the sequels...I actually didn't mind the one titled Scarlett so much, although it wasn't in fitting with the original. There's another...Rhett Butler's People...boy, that was terrible.

I'll give you that I may have missed Scarlett working on stealing Ashley, I do miss things like that.

But I remember Rhett insisting Scarlett wear the red dress to the ball/party where eveyrone else was dressed in mourning for the death. That is public humilation. Maybe that was all he did and I remembered a different sense to it.

I do have the impression that he was going down to Bell's after he married Scarlett, but I guess that was after she said 'no more babies' so he had to go get laid somewhere.

Again I could be remembering it wrong. It's been awhile. We had to read it for school. I just remember being so happy for her when that dreadful man Rhett finally left and she could have a life. I'm no longer sure why I disliked him so much, but I did and still do.

Of her men, I liked Frank Kennedy, because he owned a store. Now I see him as the active embodiment of Ashley's philosophical outlook. Both were holding onto what was gone. Frank had to die for it and Ashley had to live sort of in a coma.

ETA We read GWTW in 8 grade. I think it was to teach us that war was wrong. Maybe the others got the parts I missed, I was dreadfully sheltered which is why I missed what was ativly going on with Scarlett and Ashley.

watching the movie right now. I pictured Gerald younger, and with wild silver hair. He's an an old man!

Stlight said:

But I remember Rhett insisting Scarlett wear the red dress to the ball/party where eveyrone else was dressed in mourning for the death. That is public humilation.

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That was after she had publicly humiliated him by being caught embracing another man.

Melanie, of course, didn't believe a word of it and stood behind both of the people she loved, but Rhett knew the truth.

Queen of Swords said:

That was after she had publicly humiliated him by being caught embracing another man.

Melanie, of course, didn't believe a word of it and stood behind both of the people she loved, but Rhett knew the truth.

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I see, I had forgotten that part or being naive hadn't released hugging someone was a huge deal. I was 13 when I read it.

What about visiting Bell's? Was that just before they were married and not afterward?

I don't have a copy and I'm not sure I could get through it again. The part about the twins' mother struggling to buy them tombstones nearly finished me. Seriously. That part, not the love story, was how the book influenced my out-look, and I guess that was enough for one book. It is still the strongest anti-war book I've ever read.

Stlight said:

I'll give you that I may have missed Scarlett working on stealing Ashley, I do miss things like that.

But I remember Rhett insisting Scarlett wear the red dress to the ball/party where eveyrone else was dressed in mourning for the death. That is public humilation. Maybe that was all he did and I remembered a different sense to it.

I do have the impression that he was going down to Bell's after he married Scarlett, but I guess that was after she said 'no more babies' so he had to go get laid somewhere.

Again I could be remembering it wrong. It's been awhile. We had to read it for school. I just remember being so happy for her when that dreadful man Rhett finally left and she could have a life. I'm no longer sure why I disliked him so much, but I did and still do.

Of her men, I liked Frank Kennedy, because he owned a store. Now I see him as the active embodiment of Ashley's philosophical outlook. Both were holding onto what was gone. Frank had to die for it and Ashley had to live sort of in a coma.

ETA We read GWTW in 8 grade. I think it was to teach us that war was wrong. Maybe the others got the parts I missed, I was dreadfully sheltered which is why I missed what was ativly going on with Scarlett and Ashley.

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Anything that Rhett did to her was deserved. He made her wear the red dress because she'd just tried to cheat on him. Plus, she'd put all the men's lives in danger by making those evil black men attack her, so all the good KKK men had to go out and see to them, which was the night Frank got killed.

Judging by the sensibilities of the day and its political climate, Rhett was easy on her, far from abusive.

From reading this, and I appreciate the comments because they are really helping me understand what I didn't 'get' in the book. Thanks.

One more question, if you don't mind. Did Rhett and Scarlett even like each other? I didn't think that they did. I thought it was a marriage of convience- or lust- not a love match.

Guess his vengence would have been complete if he left her pregnant, wouldn't it? Did he? There is no way I'm reading the sequels or seeing the movies of them. Though I am considering maybe re-reading GWTW. Maybe then I'll figure out why grandmother liked it some much when she hated Scarlett and didn't think that much of Rhett (the Bell thing was unacceptable in her world, at least the way she told it.)

Rhett loved Scarlett. Scarlett loved Scarlett. So they had that in common at least.

At the end of the book he was old (by his standards) and too damn tired to go on trying to make her love him.

But he always did. He recognised a kindred spirit from the first time he saw her, I reckon. Trouble is, Scarlett was always more selfish than him, despite having a similar "Screw you, polite society!" attitude.

ETA: At one point, post-Bonnie Blue Butler, Scarlett did get pregnant, but she fell down the stairs and lost it. Also, it's never said explicitly in the book, but Belle Watling had a son - Rhett's - which is why Rhett stayed loyal to her. He wanted to see her, and the boy, right.

Well, that explains an awful lot that I didn't get. Thank you.

scarletpeaches said:

Anything that Rhett did to her was deserved. He made her wear the red dress because she'd just tried to cheat on him. Plus, she'd put all the men's lives in danger by making those evil black men attack her, so all the good KKK men had to go out and see to them, which was the night Frank got killed.

Judging by the sensibilities of the day and its political climate, Rhett was easy on her, far from abusive.

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That's what an abusive person is, isn't it? Feeling that she "deserved" to be punished? Her being attacked by the black men and setting the KKK on them was an accident. It's not like she wanted to be attacked. As for her cheating--Rhett cheated. He was the cheater in that marriage, wasn't he? I read it when I was 14, so it's possible my memory is not accurate...

Stlight said:

One more question, if you don't mind. Did Rhett and Scarlett even like each other? I didn't think that they did. I thought it was a marriage of convience- or lust- not a love match.

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Rhett loved Scarlett. Scarlett loved Rhett's money. At least until the end, when she realizes she loved him all along, blah blah blah.

Stlight said:

I see, I had forgotten that part or being naive hadn't released hugging someone was a huge deal. I was 13 when I read it.

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Imagine how you would feel if you heard that your husband or wife had been caught tenderly embracing someone else.

Now imagine you knew that your husband or wife was infatuated with that person, rather than returning your love for him or her. This isn't even getting into the fact that it was set in a historical time when hugging someone who wasn't married to you would be a big deal.

What about visiting Bell's? Was that just before they were married and not afterward?

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Rhett visited Bell while he was married to Scarlett, but that was partly because Scarlett refused to have sex with him and partly because he knew Bell genuinely cared about him and respected him.

I think he was quite justified. If I were married to someone who didn't care about me and who constantly imagined another woman in my place when we were in bed together (which was what Scarlett did - she imagined being with Ashley instead of Rhett), I might also seek comfort from a man who really did want me.

What I found interesting was that the book made a distinction between physical infidelity and emotional infidelity. Rhett made it clear that if Scarlett had just had an itch that needed to be scratched, and if Ashley had done that and gotten it over with, that wouldn't have been so bad. But instead, what she gave Ashley was her heart and mind, neither of which he wanted or could appreciate - and both of which Rhett longed for.

I thought the boy that Rhett took care of, wasn't his for some reason, but that he was just a guardian. It definitely wasn't Bell's because the boy was in New Orleans.

scarletpeaches said:

You don't have to like Scarlett; few people do - the whole point is that she's interesting. And she definitely did grow throughout the book.

And plenty of women had children they didn't love in days when there was very little you could do to stop them happening.

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This.

Many Southern women I know back then-who had the money-had a mammy for their children. The plantation mistress was often busy calling on neighbors, tending to the sick (as Mrs. O'Hara does), working with the overseer (again Mrs. O'Hara), and making sure that the house was running smoothly.

Yes, some of them might have loved their children, but I think Scarlet resents hers because they aren't Ashley's children. I believe I remember her saying that she resented Wade-Charles's son-because he was Charles's son.

Wealthy people in Guyana also invariably had nannies. There's nothing in having a nanny which implies you don't love your children. It's just like today's working women giving their children into daycare. Doesn't mean they don't love them!
You don't have to specifically WANT a child to love it.

Queen of Swords said:

That was after she had publicly humiliated him by being caught embracing another man.

Melanie, of course, didn't believe a word of it and stood behind both of the people she loved, but Rhett knew the truth.

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And it wasn't a funeral she was going to but a birthday party for Ashley.

No, I'm not saying that women who have nannies don't love their children, its just in Scarlet's case it doesnt seem like she did. I haven't read the book in awhile, but I do think she did care for Wade and Ella, in her own way. I mean-from what I remember-she wasn't abusive or neglected them (she made sure they had clothes and food).

Yes, it's a shame she didn't love any of her children, and I do think that when most women have a child-no matter whose it is-they love them unconditionally. However, that's not the case of Scarlet O'Hara. She was always selfish.

If Rhett didn't trust her, and didn't want to be in a marriage with a woman who did not love him as she loved another man, then he should not have married Scarlett. He knew she loved another man when he married her. It's wrong to marry a person and qualify it, i.e. "I'll marry you but will punish you every time I'm reminded of your flaws." Nope. When you marry a person you take the whole package, as is. I can see how his jealousy and anger could be interpreted as the behavioral pattern of an abusive man.

He knew she was infatuated by another man when he married her. He thought he could make her forget Ashley, or that she would behave properly. She didn't.

So people think he was wrong to humiliate her with the red dress?

Where are the people saying Scarlett shouldn't have humiliated him by throwing herself at another man?

scarletpeaches said:

Even though Timothy Dalton was in it? Man, it must have been craptacular!

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Surely there's a stronger word for it than just 'craptacular'. It was 100 different kinds of bad. If I were the people involved in making it, I'd spend my last dime buying up all the copies in the universe and destroying them.

aruna said:

....You don't have to specifically WANT a child to love it.

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And you don't have to love a child just because you have it. You don't have to love it even if you wanted it. It would be nice, preferable even, if everyone was born into a family with parents who loved it, but that's just not the case - in Scarlet's era, before and/or after. Right or wrong, that's the way it is/was/will be. Children have been used for centuries as bargaining chips, chattel, means to end wars and secure treaties, avenge wrongs, get revenge, stop parents whining for grandchildren, reasons to kill/divorce their mothers and marry another... humans are kinda ugly.

If it was abusive of Rhett to be jealous and angry, then it was also wonderful of Rhett to support his wife's unfeminine (for that time) ambition, comfort her when she had irrational fears and pay for everything she wanted. Which makes him a very three-dimensional person, and one reason I like him so much.

scarletpeaches said:

He knew she was infatuated by another man when he married her. He thought he could make her forget Ashley, or that she would behave properly. She didn't.

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Yes. He thought that since he and Scarlett were so well-suited personality-wise - both unconventional and hard-headed and passionate - that after she came to know him better she would respond to him and grow closer to him rather than Ashley.

Where are the people saying Scarlett shouldn't have humiliated him by throwing herself at another man?

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Not to mention that this was after she had withheld sex for months (supposedly to avoid getting pregnant, but in reality because of Ashley). Wasn't that manipulative, if not abusive?

I do love this thread. For all my vehemence in my arguments, I do love it. GWTW is one of my two favourite novels ever and I could talk about it for hours.

(My other favourite, which constantly jostles for the no.1 spot is Wally Lamb's I Know This Much is True).

Queen of Swords said:

If it was abusive of Rhett to be jealous and angry, then it was also wonderful of Rhett to support his wife's unfeminine (for that time) ambition, comfort her when she had irrational fears and pay for everything she wanted. Which makes him a very three-dimensional person, and one reason I like him so much.

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I adore him. From the way he encouraged her to thumb her nose at polite society to the way he accepted her fear of the dark. A childish, irrational fear, but he didn't mock his wife - he comforted her.

And as...oh, I forget the character's name...pointed out, no man who loved a child as much as Cap'n Butler loved Bonnie, could be all bad.

Rhett gave Mammy a gift even when she treated him coldly and disapproved of him. He went out of his way to make Wade feel loved and wanted after Bonnie's birth - how many fathers of that time would be so sensitive to their stepkids' feelings? He always treated Melanie with respect.

What he wasn't prepared to do was to either take any crap from Scarlett or to admit to her that he was deeply in love with her, because he knew she would use that against him. And that wariness eventually backfired, because when she did start to care about him, she didn't believe he felt the same way about her.