Hamas says met Obama advisors in Gaza

dmytryp · Nov 11, 2008

Bravo said:
just so we're clear about how right wing dm is, even most israelis support talking to hamas:

http://middleeast.about.com/b/2008/04/15/what-israelis-say-about-talking-with-hamas.htm

nuff said.

Just so we are clear -- I am not that far right wing as you think I am. I am right of center (but not too much). Your poll came in the middle of unstopping Qassam barrage that's been going for seven years. And on the background of our government's inability to do anything about it.
Incidently, do you have a poll of how many supported a big miltary operation in Gaza at the time? I am willing to bet they were more than 50%, too. The thing was that the situation was impossible and there was a need to do something.

Incidently, I have no idea why you think that not wanting to negotiate with someone who openly calls for your destruction untill he abandons this path is "right wing" is beyond me.

Dale Emery · Nov 11, 2008

cethklein said:
As for this "story" you post a topic with NO links and clai9m it's true based solely on the words of an avowed rapist and murderer.

So either one of two things happened here. You either exaggerated the story, or you took the words of an avowed rapist and murderer as true.

What does his being an avowed rapist and murderer have to do with the veracity of this claim?

Please note that I'm not saying I believe the guy. I don't.

Dale

Captshady · Nov 11, 2008

MacAllister said:
Those are statements attacking the argument, not the poster. You think you have some inalienable right to spout whatever you want, and not be challenged to provide some reasonable amount of supporting evidence? Nope.

You think you get to post whatever you want, and not have people tell you they disagree strongly with your opinion?

Nope.

I can tell you, though, I think you might need to be somewhere else, Captshady, if this is the best you can do. Dmytryp and Cethklein have both been given quite a bit of latitude in terms of their tones and word choices, it's true. You, however, don't get to come in and throw gas on the fire.

Especially when you apparently think asking for evidence - albeit brusquely - is a personal attack.

I can think of various reasons for Hamas to lie - I can think of various reasons for individuals to deliberately mislead Hamas - there's an entire internet subculture built around punking people who are perceived as villains, whether they're Nigerian scammers or other figures. My alarm bells went off a bit, I'll admit, when the article specifies that the supposed Obama aide first established contact on the internet.

If you're an advocate of civil disobedience, certainly that person can disagree with anything or anyone without venom. Since a writer chooses words carefully, its obvious to me that the words were chosen with venomous intent.

Joe270 · Nov 11, 2008

Since a writer chooses words carefully, its obvious to me that the words were chosen with venomous intent.

Ceth and Dmytry are mixing it up, I'm not seeing outright insults flinging back and forth. They've mixed it up before, and they tend to stay in boundaries of their own choosing, skirting the edges.

Tossing gasoline on the embers ain't helping.

just so we're clear about how right wing dm is, even most israelis support talking to hamas:

This doesn't help, either.

How 'bout we let the people interested in the thread post on, and those who just want to instigate discord take a breather.

Captshady · Nov 11, 2008

Joe270 said:
Ceth and Dmytry are mixing it up, I'm not seeing outright insults flinging back and forth. They've mixed it up before, and they tend to stay in boundaries of their own choosing, skirting the edges.

Tossing gasoline on the embers ain't helping.

I wasn't tossing gasoline, I was tossing a warning. Ceth's blatant venom is ignored, and anyone who dare to call him out on it, gets punitive results.

Joe270 · Nov 11, 2008

I was tossing a warning. Ceth's blatant venom is ignored, and anyone who dare to call him out on it, gets punitive results.

Mac and Dawno toss warnings, not the rest of us.

If you have a problem with Ceth's posts, you should report them to a mod, or an arbitrator who will take the subject up with a mod for you, if you prefer that route.

Sniping at Ceth isn't the effective way to gripe about the nature of his/her posts. That tends to get the sniper in trouble, rather than the person who offended the sniper in the first place.

Tirjasdyn · Nov 11, 2008

So anyway....

Talking to Hamas isn't a bad thing imho....so far slinging mud at them hasn't worked. Shooting missles at them has only backfired.

dmytryp · Nov 11, 2008

Just wanted to remind people of the main point of my posting the op

me said:
And just to be clear here -- I have no problem with Obama wanting to talk with Hamas. I think it is a bad idea that would lead to nothing, but empower them, but he is free to think otherwise. I have a big problem with lies. I have a problem with him saying "we won't talk to Hamas" and then holding talks under the table, especially even prior to election and in contrast to the official US policy.
And since some of you want to jump on me for this issue -- my statement relates to the eventuality that this is actually true.

cethklein · Nov 11, 2008

Dale Emery said:
What does his being an avowed rapist and murderer have to do with the veracity of this claim?

Please note that I'm not saying I believe the guy. I don't.

Dale

It all comes down to credibility. although, there are just as many people who are neither rapists or murderers who have no more credibility.

dmytryp · Nov 11, 2008

Bravo said:
just so we're clear about how right wing dm is, even most israelis support talking to hamas:

http://middleeast.about.com/b/2008/04/15/what-israelis-say-about-talking-with-hamas.htm

nuff said.

I forgot to add this.
For those who are not intimately familiar with our politics and to dispel the notion that I am extremely far right because of this issue.
Israeli government follows the policy of isolating Hamas and not negotiating with them until they fulfill the terms of the Quartet. Our government today doesn't include Likud or any right wing party for that matter. It consists of Laibor party, which has only Meretz, Communicts and Arab arties to the left of it, and of Kadima which is centrist. Kadima has a left wing represented by Olmert and Livni and a right wing headed by Mofaz. The only parties today who support negotiations with Hamas as is are the arab parties, communists and maybe Meretz (of which I am not entirely sure). So, to claim that beause I don't support negotiations with Hamas I am somehow extreme right wing is bogus.
Furthemore, since this thread isn't about Israel, I am willing to bet that 50% of Americans are against negotiating with Hamas, including many Obama supporters. And, of course, Obama's stated position is similar also

Bravo · Nov 11, 2008

Just so we are clear -- I am not that far right wing as you think I am. I am right of center (but not too much). Your poll came in the middle of unstopping Qassam barrage that's been going for seven years. And on the background of our government's inability to do anything about it.

the polls before it also showed a majority of israelis supporting talks with hamas.

take a look at the link i provided.

the most recent one i could find was in march 2008.

dmytryp said:
Furthemore, since this thread isn't about Israel, I am willing to bet that 50% of Americans are against negotiating with Hamas, including many Obama supporters. And, of course, Obama's stated position is similar also

which just goes to show how americans are more hardline than israelis.

Incidently, do you have a poll of how many supported a big miltary operation in Gaza at the time? I am willing to bet they were more than 50%, too. The thing was that the situation was impossible and there was a need to do something.

no i dont, but does it matter?

there is clear evidence that the majority of israelis supported talking to hamas, at a time when our candidates (and you) were saying not to.

MacAllister · Nov 11, 2008

Captshady said:
If you're an advocate of civil disobedience, certainly that person can disagree with anything or anyone without venom. Since a writer chooses words carefully, its obvious to me that the words were chosen with venomous intent.

I think you'd have a hard time demonstrating venom. Cethklein and Dmytryp certainly both gave as good as they got.

dmytryp · Nov 11, 2008

Bravo said:
the polls before it also showed a majority of israelis supporting talks with hamas.

take a look at the link i provided.

the most recent one i could find was in march 2008.

which just goes to show how americans are more hardline than israelis.

See my post 60. US can't shape its policies based on opinion polls in Israel. By the way, I don't know where this poll was conducted, I personally don't know anyone who supports talks with Hamas (and I work with pretty left-wing people)

Bravo said:
no i dont, but does it matter?

there is clear evidence that the majority of israelis supported talking to hamas, at a time when our candidates (and you) were saying not to.

As I said there was an urgent need to do someting. Either kick the crap out of Hamas (something like Defensive Shield in Gaza) or talk to them. My question was to show you that over 50% were for the first option, too.

dmytryp · Nov 11, 2008

Two articles by Martin Kramer about US policy in the ME. They are somewhat old, but look very much relevant to the discussion here.
http://sandbox.blog-city.com/big_ideas_in_the_middle_east.htm
http://sandbox.blog-city.com/american_interest_azure.htm

dmytryp · Nov 12, 2008

An interesting piece relevant to this conversation.

cethklein · Nov 12, 2008

MacAllister said:
I think you'd have a hard time demonstrating venom. Cethklein and Dmytryp certainly both gave as good as they got.

We do try. :tongue

Hamas says met Obama advisors in Gaza

dmytryp

Dale Emery

is way off topic

Captshady

What happened to my LIFE?!

Joe270

Captshady

What happened to my LIFE?!

Joe270

Tirjasdyn

Outline Maven

dmytryp

cethklein

dmytryp

Bravo

Socialitest

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

dmytryp

dmytryp

dmytryp

cethklein