If nobody reads you, are you a writer?

ColoradoGuy

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I’ve seen many threads in assorted places around AW that pose variants of the question: if nobody reads you, are you a writer? What is being asked here, I think, is a version of Berkeley’s old falling tree in the forest question. If, as he wrote, “to be is to be perceived,” (esse est percepi) then is not to be perceived not to be? Or, if nobody ever reads what you wrote, then did you ever write anything? Of course the next question is: how many readers would it take to make someone a writer? One?

A common retort to this is a variant of the opinion that it is the act of writing, or even simply proclaiming yourself a writer, that does it – if you say you’re a writer, then you are. One of my favorite weird writers, James Branch Cabell, said to “avow yourself a poet,” and like magic you became one.

So although readers need writers, do writers always need readers? For example, was Anne Frank a writer because historical chance gave us her writings, or simply because she wrote?
 

WildScribe

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I read what I write, therefore I am a writer with a dedicated readership. Next question!
 
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If you write, you're a writer. End of story. I've had this discussion with a real life 'friend' before who more or less said, "But no-one's read your stuff, how can you possibly call yourself a writer?"

My answer was, I'm a writer because I write. Something exists that wasn't here before I came.

I'm a writer, but not yet a novelist. That'll come on publication.
 

ColoradoGuy

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My answer was, I'm a writer because I write. Something exists that wasn't here before I came.
Yes, but that would apply to grocery lists, too. I'm not being snarky here, I'm just wondering how we know what makes the cut.

I'm a writer, but not yet a novelist. That'll come on publication.
But why not call a novelist someone who has written a novel, published or not, unread or not?
 

Birol

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That's a good question right now.
Right. The idea that a writer is someone who writes is a very large foggy patch. There are people who write who I would not consider writers. Some of these people keep diaries or journals for their own purposes. Others have jotted off a "book" with no regards to story, just because they thought "anyone could do it." The thing is, not everyone can tell a story that someone else wants to read. If people have no desire to be a writer or have a desire but no respect for craft -- as in no regard for it and no desire to learn about it before jotting down the next "bestseller," I'm not certain I consider them a writer. I'm not certain I don't either. It's a very large gray, murky area.
 

Cath

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So the question is whether or not a certain level of ability or dedication has to be present to change the person from "someone who writes" to "a writer."

I write - but it's not all I am. I'm also someone who takes photographs, someone who paints, someone who (tries to) play music. Yet I wouldn't consider myself a photographer, or an artist, or a musician.

I am a Librarian - that's my chosen profession. It's something I've studied, an area in which I consider myself an expert. So even though I'm not working as a Librarian, it's still something that defines my area of expertise. I'm not comfortable labelling myself the same way in terms of writing.
 
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Yes, but that would apply to grocery lists, too. I'm not being snarky here, I'm just wondering how we know what makes the cut.

In the case of the person to whom I was referring, I got annoyed because she dismissed my book and my attempts to find an agent with the words, "You can't call yourself a writer because no-one's read your stuff." (Quite how she knew no-one had read it I don't know, but...)

If writing a book doesn't make you a writer, I have no idea what does!

There's got to be a cut off point somewhere, to separate grocery lists from plays, novels and scripts...but where? When you've completed a piece of work that can be described as a play, a script, a book? When you've tried to get it published? What if you don't care about publication (as has been discussed in another thread)?

I would hazard a guess that a writer is someone who has created (for the sake of argument we'll use this one example) a book and intends to try to get it published AND to carry on writing other works in the future.

It's the best definition I can come up with while feeling tired and thirsty for more caffeine. ;)
 
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And I'm looking for a fog light to help explore the murk a little. Getting back to Cabell's quip, is it the intent that matters, is it the act, or is it the result?

The intent and the act together, I think. Good intentions on their own won't get a book written. And you have to write the book so be able to say "I've written a book."

And the result? Well, whether you're published or not, and for some it'll never happen, either by accident or design, you've still written a book.
 

Birol

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That's a good question right now.
It's not the act.

My mother, despite her protests to the contrary, can be very creative. Once, when she was watching my now-dead cat for me, I came home to find a note on the table, letting me know some things that had happened while I was gone and that I shouldn't be surprised to find not as I left them around my house. It was written from the cat's perspective, in the cat's voice, signed by the cat. It even referred to my mother as "Grandma," which was the cat's designation for her. It went on for two handwritten pages, or about 400 words. The only thing to tell me that it was from my mother was the handwriting.

Yet, despite the fact that from this example it might be possible to conclude that my mother is a storyteller and a creative, slightly warped individual, she is not a writer.
 

ColoradoGuy

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I would hazard a guess that a writer is someone who has created (for the sake of argument we'll use this one example) a book and intends to try to get it published AND to carry on writing other works in the future.
So, to you, it's the intent to find readers, to publish, that matters?

ETA: looks like I cross-posted on this one.
 
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I say the act to get the book written, and the intent to lend it structure and give it a story (rather than just writing any old thing, such as a shopping list).

Man, it's late. My head hurts. I can still taste those spare ribs. What more do you want?! :D
 

ColoradoGuy

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I say the act to get the book written, and the intent to lend it structure and give it a story (rather than just writing any old thing, such as a shopping list).

Man, it's late. My head hurts. I can still taste those spare ribs. What more do you want?! :D
Hey, it's only late afternoon here. I'm just recalling Canticle for Leibowitz, which may be the most creative literary use of a grocery list ever.
 

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Right. The idea that a writer is someone who writes is a very large foggy patch. There are people who write who I would not consider writers. Some of these people keep diaries or journals for their own purposes. Others have jotted off a "book" with no regards to story, just because they thought "anyone could do it." The thing is, not everyone can tell a story that someone else wants to read. If people have no desire to be a writer or have a desire but no respect for craft -- as in no regard for it and no desire to learn about it before jotting down the next "bestseller," I'm not certain I consider them a writer. I'm not certain I don't either. It's a very large gray, murky area.
I very seldom call myself a writer, although I had a few things exposed to the public, because I consider myself a student of the craft much more than a person who writes for publication.

I write. I don't publish. I study people, situations, explore my exposition to become better, use tools and devices I've learned to better my story -- if needed, and yet I still don't consider myself a writer as such.

I am a database programmer though. Why not just throw a few lines of code out on the internet and call myself a web developer? Maybe because although I can code web pages, I am not a web developer. Although I can write a novel (done that), I am not a novelist simply because the act of writing a novel isn't necessarily the same as publishing a novel and receiving money for your work.

I may never publish a novel in my life time for whatever reason. This won't stop me from writing stories, novels or poems. It simply means I (me) don't consider myself a writer.

Frankly, I get a little embarassed when someone says "Oh, you're a writer."
 

pdr

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For some reason...

it's really fashionable in New Zealand to be a writer.

So there are a lot of people with the intention of being a writer. They call themselves writers, but what they actually write is very little. They usually write one, even two, short stories for a competition and a couple of reports for the local free-to-everyone newspaper every year.

I get to tutor quite a few of these people. Sometimes the whole group are like this. They argue that they cannot possibly do writing exercises in my class because their muse isn't present or that they cannot 'force' their creativity. They can't do homework because they are too busy, but they say they are writers because they intend to write and they've had a story published.

When I quote from all those 'name' writers, well published people we all know, writers who say that they never have trouble with their creativity/muse. They tell it to appear at 9 am every day and it does, then my students point out that that must be commercial writing and that literary writers aren't like that. When I point out that Author Name I've just quoted is regarded as a literary writer they will argue that s/he isn't by real literary standards. They know. They are writers!

Maybe a writer is one who regards writing as hir sole occupation, who is published and continues to be so, who writes regularly and makes efforts to sell the work.

I honestly can't call my secret diarist friend a writer, nor are the people I met who claim they will write a novel one day.

I do think there has to be an honest effort to produce work daily and get it published and keep on doing that.
 
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poetinahat

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A common retort to this is a variant of the opinion that it is the act of writing, or even simply proclaiming yourself a writer, that does it – if you say you’re a writer, then you are. One of my favorite weird writers, James Branch Cabell, said to “avow yourself a poet,” and like magic you became one.
"That trick never works!"
"Nothin' up ma sleeve... PRESTO!!!!"
*RRRROWRRRR*
"Uh-oh... wrong hat!"

Is this any relation to the notion that a statesman is simply a dead politician?
(Corollary: "What this country needs is more statesmen.")
 
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There's a bit of a problem with the publishing angle of it.

If one is published, you're a writer. HOWEVER, what about just before you're published? You've completed the book, collected your advance. All that remains is to go to press. Are you a writer between typing 'the end' and seeing your book on the shelf?

Surely you are, somewhere before seeing the published copy, as that time period before, was when you put all the work in.

Right. I'm rambling and I really need to go to bed. Night all! :D
 

WildScribe

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I think that to earn the title, all one has to do is write something and call themselves a writer. It takes a little more effort to add the prefixes of "good" "published" or "novel", but they are still a writer.

I've read some shit by people who call themselves poets, but they still wrote it.
 
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"That trick never works!"
"Nothin' up ma sleeve... PRESTO!!!!"
*RRRROWRRRR*
"Uh-oh... wrong hat!"

Is this any relation to the notion that a statesman is simply a dead politician?
(Corollary: "What this country needs is more statesmen.")

***Hey presto! Rupert Everett has decided my beauty overrides his sexual preferences and he wants to marry me!***

...

...

...

...still waiting, Rupert...
 

Higgins

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English

I’ve seen many threads in assorted places around AW that pose variants of the question: if nobody reads you, are you a writer? What is being asked here, I think, is a version of Berkeley’s old falling tree in the forest question. If, as he wrote, “to be is to be perceived,” (esse est percepi) then is not to be perceived not to be? Or, if nobody ever reads what you wrote, then did you ever write anything? Of course the next question is: how many readers would it take to make someone a writer? One?

A common retort to this is a variant of the opinion that it is the act of writing, or even simply proclaiming yourself a writer, that does it – if you say you’re a writer, then you are. One of my favorite weird writers, James Branch Cabell, said to “avow yourself a poet,” and like magic you became one.

So although readers need writers, do writers always need readers? For example, was Anne Frank a writer because historical chance gave us her writings, or simply because she wrote?

English seems to suggest that you get your active "-er" suffix by the very act described by some verb or other. So If I jump, I'm a jumper and if I flip, I'm a flipper and if I whizz I'm a whizzer and if I dance I'm a dancer and so on....
 

poetinahat

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I thought that was pretty much the way it worked. The question for me is the implication of habituality, or regularity, that the -er noun implies. So, if one writes - over time, regularly or sporadically, or at one instance, while one is writing - then one is a writer.

Where it gets contentious is for, say, lying. There's a vast distinction, for me, between telling a lie and being a liar.

It seems, though, that the question here is more about delineation: is being a writer (one who writes now and then, dabbling) the same as being a Writer (one who invests extensive time, talent, and/or effort in writing as an enterprise or art form)?

*shrug* Okay by me.

Lowercasefully yours,

PiaH.
 

Birol

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That's a good question right now.
Ah, but Poet, the difference between telling a lie and being a liar is exactly what we're discussing. When does one cease to be someone who tells lies and become a liar? When are you merely writing and when are you a writer?