Purgatory's Pit of Doom

Teri (brace yourself for this) but I agree with you on your take on adults reading YA. Adults want entertainment and YA books have become far more entertaining than a lot of the adult offerings.

And, Snappy, you did the right thing in throwing the word "discrimination" around. Pay inequality is a huge red flag in discrimination cases so that's why employers take notice in such a situation. Everyone is essentially part of a protected class.

It's difficult to prove discrimination in a lot of cases because many employer conduct is open to interpretation. Pay inequality is tangible and easily proven and forces the employer on the defensive in litigation.

SteveCordero said:

Teri (brace yourself for this) but I agree with you on your take on adults reading YA. Adults want entertainment and YA books have become far more entertaining than a lot of the adult offerings.

Click to expand...

We agree? Without first arguing?

Isn't this the sort of event supposed to signal the apocalypse?


ETA:

YA = fun. I've heard lots of people trying to define YA, but the best grip I can get is if it's not fun to read, forget it.

When I first started writing MG I understood immediately that children have no tolerance for boredom. They won't keep reading because there is an award embossed on the cover or because the NY Times said the book is brilliant. If the story drags, the book gets thrown aside.

Actually, if you want my son to keep reading, just make a few toilet jokes, which is why I raised the question of who decides literary merit. I think I may have to conclude that Captain Underpants books are brilliant. And I do sort of think they are. If my husband and grown stepson are any indication, some boys don't grow of toilet jokes. Anyone see Monty Python? Sheesh. Toilet jokes galore.

Teriann said:

We agree? Without first arguing?

Isn't this the sort of event supposed to signal the apocalypse?

Click to expand...

Uhm ... it is 2012

Teriann said:

We agree? Without first arguing?

Isn't this the sort of event supposed to signal the apocalypse?


ETA:

YA = fun. I've heard lots of people trying to define YA, but the best grip I can get is if it's not fun to read, forget it.

When I first started writing MG I understood immediately that children have no tolerance for boredom. They won't keep reading because there is an award embossed on the cover or because the NY Times said the book is brilliant. If the story drags, the book gets thrown aside.

Actually, if you want my son to keep reading, just make a few toilet jokes, which is why I raised the question of who decides literary merit. I think I may have to conclude that Captain Underpants books are brilliant. And I do sort of think they are. If my husband and grown stepson are any indication, some boys don't grow of toilet jokes. Anyone see Monty Python? Sheesh. Toilet jokes galore.

Click to expand...

Ah yes, the Underpants books. My. son. loved. them. Anything describing bodily functions = WIN

He's into the Wimpy Kid books now. That self-depricating humor appeals to him.

How sad and pathetic is it that I got a massage yesterday and all I kept thinking about through it was that I should be writing instead?

As to the linked article, there's always a bubble whenever there is a money making new venture and nothing changes in the internet age. Heck, that was what the gold rush was about and the push to the West Coast nearly 2 hundred years ago. Things always normalize.

Also, I think it's important to be clear about what the bubble is. ePubbing itself is not a bubble. It's trying to get rich off it as a self pubber that is.

*flops down on couch* Made it home safely.

(((Snappy))) Sorry about R, and I don't know what else happened but I see "discrimination" and so I hope you're kicking ass and taking names.

Too tired to comment on much else. But I'll say that for me, the appeal of YA was that (for a while anyway, not so much now), it was freeing. YA is YA is YA and it used to be shelved that way. This allowed for writing (and reading) cross genre stuff that couldn't get pubbed in adult because it didn't fit the tightly defined expectations.

Teriann said:

When I first started writing MG I understood immediately that children have no tolerance for boredom. They won't keep reading because there is an award embossed on the cover or because the NY Times said the book is brilliant. If the story drags, the book gets thrown aside.

Click to expand...

It makes sense when you think about how most middle graders are still perfecting their reading skills, so reading is work for them. They are learning new vocabulary, dealing with more complicated sentence structures, trying to follow the plot and keep all the characters straight, as well as grasp the overall meaning of the story. It's something that takes practice. Make any one of those too difficult, or have the story drag, and it just becomes too hard.

Even the vocabulary learning is interesting. When my 11-year-old reads aloud, some words she just doesn't know, but some words she knows yet has never tried to read them. She stumbles over the pronounciation until the light dawns on her that she does actually know the word, but it's another factor that slows down her reading speed.

And most writers, editors and agents were probably all far advanced in their reading skills at a young age, so it's a real balancing act to write for all those kids who are normal readers for their age.

SteveCordero said:

Also, I think it's important to be clear about what the bubble is. ePubbing itself is not a bubble. It's trying to get rich off it as a self pubber that is.

Click to expand...

An excellent point. There is an ongoing belief that it's "easy" to make money via self-epubbing. This is producing the bubbly glut.

I won't deny that for me money wasn't a strong motivator. As we all know, even a $20 check when it comes from fiction is a thrill, even if some of us can earn much more money in our day jobs.

For me, I have two other big motivators:

(1) freeing up closet space.

BWAHAHAH (except I'm not joking.) We don't have a large house. When we can sell it, we'd like to move to the Bay Area. With all my manuscripts turned into ebooks, I can probably hire one less truck for the move BWHAHAHA

(2) I can write whatever I want without worrying about who will buy it. Right now I'm writing an essay. I made the cover. I will publish it under my pen name. It's an essay I had a hankering to write.

(Also, when I joke about how I made $5.50 that day from an ebook, hubby says, "That's more than the manuscript was earning in the closet.)

ETA: Also, self pubbing was my husband's idea. I told him about the craze, and he said, "You have all those manuscript boxes in the closet." Maybe he was also thinking of having to cart them around once more next time we move.

Another ETA: Also keep in mind I'm firmly in the "do both" camp. However, I can tell you that an editor at FSG asked to see additional work but I have no interest in getting something else ready. I have a much stronger interest in an essay to self-publish. After all these years, there's something luring about immediate gratification. Heck. After all these years, there's something luring about gratification.

But isn't a bubble when the value of something becomes terribly inflated? Then the value suddenly drops, so that those holding over-priced assets lose their money. The gold rush wasn't a bubble, but gold prices can be a bubble. It wasn't an internet bubble because many internet companies were started, but because many people paid a lot to own internet companies that were worthless.

Got an R for a reader job. Big studio, too.

{{{Snappy}}} I'm too late, but like Ink, I saw 'discrimination' tossed around. Hope things work out, whatever happened.

{{{Ink}}} Glad you got home safe. Sheesh. Talk about a nightmare.

I can't even begin to comment on...anything. Brain=crispy. However, the adults I've talked to who read YA said they liked "reliving" those butterfly moments...liking boy, first kiss, etc. *shrugs* I find myself enjoying adult anything much more these days. Everything in YA seems to have blended into some odd haze, nothing discernible. Bleh.

mario_c said:

Got an R for a reader job. Big studio, too.

Click to expand...

{{{Mario}}} Hang in there.

(((Ink)))

(((Mario)))

I missed a lot yesterday but I am neutral about adults reading YA. I hope there are books teens like being published, but I don't really know what they like and when I was their age, I didn't like what they liked. But I think it's cool that adults are reading it -- that they are choosing what they want, regardless of publisher label. We are living in crummy times -- no wonder people want to escape to a time when their lives had possibilities. If kids or adults or aliens want to read my book, well, bless 'em. I'll sell them a copy.

(((Mario)))

kellion92 said:

We are living in crummy times -- no wonder people want to escape to a time when their lives had possibilities. If kids or adults or aliens want to read my book, well, bless 'em. I'll sell them a copy.

Click to expand...

I've heard this as well. Especially when the world/economy/what have you is zooming along in a handbasket, people want escapism. For adults, reading YA is part of that.

(((mario)))

*need more coffee*

I've found a site to keep up with publishing news (not deals, but business news, people's views on the future, conference recaps, etc.), with posts by Porter Anderson called "Writing on the Ether." They are on Jane Friedman's blog and they are looong, but much easier to read than clicking on links in Publisher's Lunch. Here's the link

Mornin', Pit

{{{Mario}}}

Good point, Kell

Hi there Pitizens. It's Friday.

(((Mario)))

((mario))

I never thought about it that way Kell, but I agree. Sadly, now and days escapism feels like the only way I can actually have a good reason to not feel awful. That was an awkwardly worded sentence.

*sigh* It was looking like a good-ish day. Now it is a friend-loss day. The Pit is everywhere.

((((Red))))

Peeks out from under couch to chime in for a sec.

There's YA that's cross-audience, and YA that's strictly YA. There are some books I find ridiculous I toss to S1ssy and she likes because she hasn't yet experienced many of those firsts, and then there are some we both love.

Let's take @nn@ and the Fr3nch K155, for example. I found it yawn-worthy because it was so much running around over a simple failure to communicate, so it ruined a lot of those butterfly moments for me that I do like in YA books because I'm reading with the eyes of an adult thinking "OMG, just TALK TO HIM!" S1ssy found them believable, so maybe it just skews younger. Again, I'm not the intended audience.

Other books, like Hung3r G@m35, we both loved. Themes were more universal, and transcended the genre. And then there were some we hated for different reasons.

Going back under couch to forage maggot crumbs for dinner.

{{{Red}}} I'm so sorry.

In regards to YA, I think many adults yearn for those "firsts." Butterflies in the stomach, first kiss, etc. For the married folk, I laughed hysterically last weekend when I watched Br!desm@!ds and she said her husband hadn't kissed her in 5 years. So, reverting back to those moments can be intriguing....I guess? *shrugs*

TGIF. 'Nuf said.

(((Red))) I'm sorry.

I read a lot of YA and although it's can be a cliche, I missing all the possibilities and potential the characters often have. They have special abilities no one understands, and they're the only one who can save the world.

Well, the world needs saving, and I don't think I can do it. I don't know if anyone can.

(((Red)))

I think there's also a lot of excitement in YA because those years are so turbulent. It's about figuring our who you are and what you can do. But let's face it, many people go through life without figuring that out until years after high school, if at all. And as the years pass, the possibilities diminish. So the turmoil in YA is relatable, and the sense of freedom is enviable.

Then again, reading Cricket's comment makes me think that maybe I like YA because I can't relate to adult stuff. Husband and I watched Br1desma1ds and were like WTF is wrong with these people. Didn't find it funny at all. The story was boring and the characters irritating. Yet everyone else I know thought it was hilarious.