A GAME OF THRONES (HBO) -- POSSIBLE SPOILERS

Izhitsa · May 6, 2012

A minor plot hole, both in the books and the show -- why isn't Jaqen burning his victims? After all, three lives are supposed to be owed to the Red God.

Perhaps he, a Faceless Man, trusts the many aspects of his deity to sort them out after the deed is done . . .

BunnyMaz · May 6, 2012

I always thought it was a given that Jaqen was a faceless man. I never could figure out why he referred to the Red God, because don't the Faceless Men believe that all Gods are the same? Or that all Gods of Death are the same at least? My memory is a little hazy.

Izhitsa · May 6, 2012

BunnyMaz said:
I always thought it was a given that Jaqen was a faceless man. I never could figure out why he referred to the Red God, because don't the Faceless Men believe that all Gods are the same? Or that all Gods of Death are the same at least? My memory is a little hazy.

I agree, it didn't make much sense for Jaqen to refer to the Red God; GRRM might've written this before coming up with the Many-Faced God business, yet for the Faceless Men the Red God could well be one of the aspects of the God of Death, who indeed is supposed to be the same one worshipped under various names around the known world.

Another possibility is that the assumed person of Jaqen is a follower of the Red God, and he speaks this line 'in character'.

CrastersBabies · May 6, 2012

Izhitsa said:
A minor plot hole, both in the books and the show -- why isn't Jaqen burning his victims? After all, three lives are supposed to be owed to the Red God......

Ya know, Izhitsa (and Bunny), I'm not sure. But, I would imagine the answers are there in Arya's later chapters ..... >>>> In the temple in Bravosi - the House of Black and White. I do not think that Jaqen follows the same god of Melisandre, though. Here is what I found on ASOIAF Wiki that may be of interest. I had to look myself because I honestly could not remember!

-------
The Guild [of the Faceless Men] originated in the volcanic slave mines of Valyria. Their founder came to believe that Valyria's diverse slave population all prayed to the same god of death in many different incarnations. The Guild believes that the death gods of all religions are faces of a single, Many-Faced God. In the Guild's House of Black and White, followers wear black and white robes and perform religious duties for the community, such as tending to the dead. The House contains a fountain and alcoves with idols of many death gods, including the Stranger of the Seven, but there are no formal services. Some visiting worshipers light candles to their god, then drink from the fountain using a black cup. The religious order refil the fountain with a poison, so that drinking fromm the fountain leads to a painless death. This is sometimes referred to as "the gift" of the Many Faced God.

A phrase associated with the cult of the Many-Faced God is "valar morghulis," translated from High Valyrian as "all men must die"; a response to this is "valar dohaeris, or "all men must serve."

According to the Guild, the god is present in many religions, all under different names. In Qohor, it is called the Black Goat. In Yi Ti, the Lion of Night and in the Faith of the Seven, the Stranger.

--------

It could be that Jaqen was giving honor to the fire god, R'hllor in a sense, but in the end serves the Many Faced God. Unless Jaqen and other Faceless men consider R'hllor one of the diety's "faces." I think you are right when you say that he's letting the Many Faced God sort things out in a sense. I don't know. What do you think? This aspect of Martin's world has always fascinated me. Always fun to talk about. >>>>>

Sorry for the long spoiler text that you have to highlight! Didn't want to ruin it for others.

thothguard51 · May 6, 2012

Well, for those who have not read the books, the Red God reference by Jaqen won't matter. But I suspect HBO understands this is a problem for those who have read the books, and they will resolve it in time. Now, resolving the issue to our satisfaction is another matter...

Izhitsa · May 6, 2012

CrastersBabies said:
Ya know, Izhitsa (and Bunny), I'm not sure. But, I would imagine the answers are there in Arya's later chapters ..... >>>> It could be that Jaqen was giving honor to the fire god, R'hllor in a sense, but in the end serves the Many Faced God. Unless Jaqen and other Faceless men consider R'hllor one of the diety's "faces." I think you are right when you say that he's letting the Many Faced God sort things out in a sense. I don't know. What do you think? This aspect of Martin's world has always fascinated me. Always fun to talk about.

It's nice to be able to discuss the finer points of ASOIAF theology, CrastersBabies!

My hypotheses:

1) The Red God, i.e. R'hllor, is one of the aspects of the Many-Faced God, Jaqen the Faceless Man worships him as such. Evidence against It's the Great Other who is the god of death in the Melisandre religion. Rebuttal They burn people in the name of R'hllor, don't they?

2) The assumed person of Jaqen is a follower of R'hllor, and his words come from fusing his core beliefs as a FM with the faith of the man whose personality he has assumed.

3) Jaqen speaks of the Red God because he really can't be talking to Arya about the Many-Faced God. She won't know what he is talking about, and Jaqen isn't the one to answer the inevitable questions.

Izhitsa · May 6, 2012

thothguard51 said:
Well, for those who have not read the books, the Red God reference by Jaqen won't matter. But I suspect HBO understands this is a problem for those who have read the books, and they will resolve it in time. Now, resolving the issue to our satisfaction is another matter...

The thing is, it's an unresolved issue from the books.

In the book, Jaqen says that '[t]he Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life'. There has been no clarification as to why Jaqen mentioned the fire god to Arya.

Perhaps GRRM himself will resolve it in either Book 6 or 7. Probably not.

CrastersBabies · May 6, 2012

Izhitsa. Oh yes. I love geeking out on this.

You said: <<<
1) The Red God, i.e. R'hllor, is one of the aspects of the Many-Faced God, Jaqen the Faceless Man worships him as such. Evidence against It's the Great Other who is the god of death in the Melisandre religion. Rebuttal They burn people in the name of R'hllor, don't they?

I think it's a good theory. Melisandre's fanaticism toward the Lord of Light seems to include blood sacrifices (the more "royal" the more powerful). I also found this on ASOIAF Wiki: "Many-Faced God of Braavos, believed to be the true face of all the gods." So, yes. I think this would definitely be an argument in favor of that.

2) The assumed person of Jaqen is a follower of R'hllor, and his words come from fusing his core beliefs as a FM with the faith of the man whose personality he has assumed.

I think this solidifies #1 even more. If Jaqen is playing a role (follower of R'hllor), then it would only make sense that he uses the proper terminology. But, consider this, if he truly is a follower of the Many-Faced God, then him (and Biter/Rorge) being trapped in a burning wagon would definitely point to the Lord of Light. Let's say Jaqen and his companions were in the wagon and it had fallen into the ocean and Arya swam under the water to save them. He might then have told her, "You took three lives from the Drowned God." Do you see what I'm saying? I think the situation itself (fire in the wagon) might have dictated which "facet" of the Many-Faced God Jaqen was speaking to.

3) Jaqen speaks of the Red God because he really can't be talking to Arya about the Many-Faced God. She won't know what he is talking about, and Jaqen isn't the one to answer the inevitable questions.

I think this is also a good possibility. As a westerner, she might know of the Red God. Too many questions with the many-faced god, definitely! >>>>>>

thothguard51 · May 6, 2012

Tick, tick, tick, a little over seven hours to go...

Izhitsa · May 6, 2012

CrastersBabies said:
... But, consider this, if he truly is a follower of the Many-Faced God, then him (and Biter/Rorge) being trapped in a burning wagon would definitely point to the Lord of Light. Let's say Jaqen and his companions were in the wagon and it had fallen into the ocean and Arya swam under the water to save them. He might then have told her, "You took three lives from the Drowned God." Do you see what I'm saying? I think the situation itself (fire in the wagon) might have dictated which "facet" of the Many-Faced God Jaqen was speaking to.

Definitely, I agree. I suppose that burning the selected victims in order to, erm, solidify the connection with this particular 'facet' would've been over the top for Jaqen.

Not to say it couldn't be done. Perhaps the Harrenhal staff would've been speaking of dragonflame returning in a mysterious way and setting this or that vlllain on fire.

Yet the FM are supposed to go quiet about their business.

Or -- disposal of the corpses by way of burning is enough. I can't recall this mentioned in the book, but I think it's within the characters of the successive 'castellans' of Harrenhal to forgo burying the numerous dead in earth and opting for cremation.

BunnyMaz · May 6, 2012

Gotta say as well, part of me can't help but imagine that Jaqen and Syrio are the same person. We never find out if Syrio died or not, and if he was a faceless man, I could imagine him swapping faces while imprisoned. Maybe because that character was just too awesome to die, and I want at least one of the ones I loved in the first book to survive (Only Arya left now, depending on what the last cliffhanger means). Ahem. That's probably just me fangirling, though.

thothguard51 · May 6, 2012

Jaqen is a big influence on Arya. The actor plays Jaqen well...I kinda hope he DOES survive the season.

CrastersBabies · May 6, 2012

Bunny, I have had that thought many times myself. If it turns out to be true, we can flap our hands together in super fan geekiness.

Izhitsa, it's hard to say. I need to reread some of those Clash of Kings chapters that describe what Arya sees. It's been too long to remember exactly what she saw. I seem to recall that his victim simply perished in a strange manner, in front of a large crowd and that nobody was seen around him or near him. This leads me to believe that magic is involved. You've read the book recently? What do you think?

BunnyMaz · May 6, 2012

Ah I need to reread the book before I can say, to be honest. I don't think the Faceless Man that plays Jaqen actually worships the red god. I do think that Faceless Men definitely have access to powerful magic, possibly also including magic that can kill. Then again, why use magic when a mummer's trick will do? Possibly Jaqen killed his victims with a delayed poison, or with a needle-thin blade to the heart or some other organ that wouldn't leave noticeable marks in an age where there's no such thing as proper forensics! I just did a google of Syrio = Jaqen actually, and some of the more detailed theories are really fascinating. I've been led to a really interesting conspiracy theory that you should not read unless you're up to date on the books.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard · May 6, 2012

thothguard51 said:
Well, for those who have not read the books, the Red God reference by Jaqen won't matter.

I can vouch for this. I highlighted the text and read it and well, it may as well have been in Japanese. We are pretty rabid about discussing who is who on screen and after watching, and this Jaqen, is basically "Oh, the dude the Nightwatch was taking and Arya gave him an axe when his cage was on fire." Has anyone even said his name?

thothguard51 · May 6, 2012

The night watch was talking about Halfhand. Jaqen is the guy Arya gave the axe to to allow him and those with him to escape the fire.

To understand though who Jaqen is, you have to read the books. He is the one who sets Arya on her path later.

From the previews for this weeks episodes, it does not look like we will return to Winterfell or Bran this week.

Tick, tick, tick, a little over two hours to go and we will find out if Arya gives him the second name, and who it is...

thothguard51 · May 6, 2012

Well, HBO seems to have deviated from the books in this episode more so than normal. Like Dani losing her dragons.

OK, here are some thoughts...

1...Arya never did spend a lot of time around the Royal court, but yet Littlefinger does recognise her, even though her hair is shorter and darker. He does not give her away to Tywin Lannister. Had he done so, he could have helped Tywin win Jammies freedom. So what is Littlefinger up too? I also liked how he set up the proposal of Margery wedding Joffrey to form an alliance with the Tyrells.

2...Jon and Ygrette. Ygrette looks about what I imagined and I do love me a good red headed woman. But, I did not hear Ygrette speak her famous line, "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

3...Well, Osha did play an important role in helping Bran and Rikken escape, instead of just tagging along. Even though we can see how divided Theon's emotions are, he is still a dick, >>>though that part of him won't be around for long<<<

4...Three cheers for the hound saving Sansa. The poor girl is really getting a lesson in reality.

5...I did not really understand the need for the conversation between Cercie and Tyrion about she hopes one day he really loves someone. Surely she knows about his first love/marriage and how that ended.

6...Here's another deviation from the books, Cat returned before Rob got married. She even warns him about his commitment that he must keep. Well, thats not a bad deviation because it will>>>make what he deserves at the Red Wedding justified. . Almost like what happened to his father for not listening. <<<

All in all, an enjoyable episode that advances the various plots...

DreamWeaver · May 6, 2012

I feel like HBO jumped the shark on this episode. For one thing, for me <<<<spoiler>>> the whole point of Rob falling in love and marrying the wrong girl is that he was set up by Tywinn Lanister, not that he fell in love (which he did--Jeyne wasn't in on it, though her mother was) <<<end spoiler>>>. And then the dragons. Really? Really, HBO???? Geez. Just...geez. Lame.

I hope they redeem themselves next week.

JohnnyGottaKeyboard · May 7, 2012

thothguard51 said:
The night watch was talking about Halfhand. Jaqen is the guy Arya gave the axe to to allow him and those with him to escape the fire.

Yes, they were talking about Halfhand, they were taking Jaqen (to join their ranks), before the caravan got ambushed by the guys looking for Gendry. I think you misread me. But no problem, thanks for the info.

thothguard51 said:
To understand though who Jaqen is, you have to read the books. He is the one who sets Arya on her path later.

Well, I do hope that's not technically correct because who wants to watch a tv show that you need to read a book to understand?

Izhitsa · May 7, 2012

BunnyMaz said:
Possibly Jaqen killed his victims with a delayed poison, or with a needle-thin blade to the heart or some other organ that wouldn't leave noticeable marks in an age where there's no such thing as proper forensics!

I think Jaqen pushed Chiswyck off the wall, just like that. There was no need for him to make it complicated. As for Weese, my best guess is that Jaqen controlled Weese's dog -- magically.

BunnyMaz said:
I just did a google of Syrio = Jaqen actually, and some of the more detailed theories are really fascinating. I've been led to a really interesting conspiracy theory that you should not read unless you're up to date on the books.

Syrio = Jaqen, perhaps... if a certain turnkey was on to it and rendered a man with a new face to Yoren.

The theory... wow, that beats our usual RL fare, 'Gorbachev was a CIA agent'.

thothguard51 · May 7, 2012

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:
Well, I do hope that's not technically correct because who wants to watch a tv show that you need to read a book to understand?

I am sure HBO will make it evident how Jaqen influences her.

BunnyMaz · May 7, 2012

Yeah, that episode deviated quite a lot. And I was more than a little disappointed that the anticipated pay-off You know nothing, Jon Snow, didn't happen even once.

The dragon thing... are they going to use this as a plot device to force Dani to go to the House of the Undying? I'm struggling to remember what prompted her to go there in the first place, and it's also likely I'm getting confused because I'm pretty sure she moved about a lot more in the second book than she is now. I may also be desperately trying to claw my way to a way to make sense of this massive deviation from the plot, in a series where they're already struggling to cram all the original book content.

The change where Sansa is almost raped and rescued by The Hound makes sense to me. We've not had as much opportunity to appreciate the relationship between them in the series so far, so this'll make the shippers happy.

Izhitsa said:
I
Syrio = Jaqen, perhaps... if a certain turnkey was on to it and rendered a man with a new face to Yoren.

The theory... wow, that beats our usual RL fare, 'Gorbachev was a CIA agent'.

Would that be a certain turnkey who is also a spider? Yes, that was my thought as well. And given what we find that same man's motives to be come the most recent book, the theory that he might also be involved with the Faceless Men has a bit more weight to it. One thing I keep trying to puzzle out in my head. How long was Eddard Stark in the cells for? Because he gave permission for the Night's Watch to take their pick of the cells while he was still Hand, so potentially the Watch was hanging around pointlessly for weeks after that. Why would they, if they hadn't been given a heads up by Varys that they might be taking Eddard as well if they would only wait?

Manuel Royal · May 7, 2012

I don't care if they take different directions than the books. Two different art forms, and two different works. If I wanted to read about or discuss a series of books, I wouldn't be here in the "Movies, TV and Theater" subforum.

As angry mobs go, that was a pretty good one. They fell on that one guy like in a zombie movie. Joffrey looked so shocked that his psycopathic behavior is having consequences.

As beheadings go, that made Mary Stewart's look like precision surgery. Poor Bran. Ser Rodrik was practically a family member; having to watch him get his head clumsily chopped off would be nightmarish. Of course, children have similar experiences all the time in the real world, going from prehistory up to our current enlightened year of 2012; that's because humans are animals with a capacity for wickedness, and the world is a dungheap. You just don't see it on tv that much.

thothguard51 · May 7, 2012

Yes, I figure they are using the dragons to force Dani to the House of the Undying. In the books, I think she went because it was a last chance to get her ships and they promised to answer her questions.

Qarth is just the first stop for Dani...

Yes, I think HBO flubbed this episode with Ygrette by not including her famous line. I have waited all season to hear Ygrette say, "You know nothing, Jon Snow." Reason? That line makes Jon think. Bastards...

thothguard51 · May 7, 2012

Well, Theon obviously was not using Valyrian Steel...

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