Cultural Appropriation and Celebration of Failure to Read the Screen

Yes that. However its wrapped up (no pun intended), or the myth debunked, the Christmas period begins in November at the latest, so rebranding the period, for whatever reason, is still rebranding the period.

I happen to like to like the term, for what its worth, but it only serves to demonstrate that the best intentions will be misrepresented or misunderstood, which is the point I was making.

WriterDude said:

Yes that. However its wrapped up (no pun intended), or the myth debunked, the Christmas period begins in November at the latest, so rebranding the period, for whatever reason, is still rebranding the period.

I happen to like to like the term, for what its worth, but it only serves to demonstrate that the best intentions will be misrepresented or misunderstood, which is the point I was making.

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Rebranding the period. Like Christmas sales didn't already do that.

And - who said that Christmas period begins in November? Because it was one hell of a labour, and I didn't read that in my bible.

mccardey said:

Rebranding the period. Like Christmas sales didn't already do that.

And - who said that Christmas period begins in November? Because it was one hell of a labour, and I didn't read that in my bible.

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Not sure I follow. The bible clearly states that thou should take thy works Christmas piss up in mid November if everywhere is fully booked in December, and thy garish Christmas lights must light up the street no later than the last hallow treat is scoffed, or the second of November, whichever comes first.

WriterDude said:

Not sure I follow. The bible clearly states that thou should take thy works Christmas piss up in mid November if everywhere is fully booked in December, and thy garish Christmas lights must light up the street no later than the last hallow treat is scoffed, or the second of November, whichever comes first.

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I'm sorry, you're basically offending everyone because you don't want to have to deal with accidentally inciting

unexpected twitter paroxysms and facebook polemics that I haven't the strength of will to handle.

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You might want to work on targeting your Outrage more meaningfully. Or, just - better.

Has...has this got something to do with Advent?

I have no idea where this thread is going.

Helix said:

I have no idea where this thread is going.

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Hell in a handcart, I think.

mccardey said:

I'm sorry, you're basically offending everyone because you don't want to have to deal with accidentally inciting

You might want to work on targeting your Outrage more meaningfully. Or, just - better.

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Am I actually insulting everyone? Are my posts conveying outrage?

I really do need to work on my communication skills, its much worse than I thought. But yeah, I'm absolutely correct to worry about unexpected responses.

WriterDude said:

Am I actually insulting everyone? Are my posts conveying outrage?

I really do need to work on my communication skills, its much worse than I thought. But yeah, I'm absolutely correct to worry about unexpected responses.

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I'm not insulted. But you started by saying (as I understood it) that Christmas, as an important Christian festival, had been silenced by non-Christian forces - in1997. And when i questioned that, you seemed to respond by defining Christmas-the-religious-festival as merely a piss up. So- that confused me.

As far as being worried about unexpected responses - don't be. They're just other people having other thoughts. Nothing to be scared of.

mccardey said:

I'm not insulted. But you started by saying (as I understood it) that Christmas, as an important Christian festival, had been silenced by non-Christian forces - in1997. And when i questioned that, you seemed to respond by defining Christmas-the-religious-festival as merely a piss up. So- that confused me.

As far as being worried about unexpected responses - don't be. They're just other people having other thoughts. Nothing to be scared of.

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Sorry for the confusion. I was initially defending political correctness being good, but wanted to list instances of political correctness gone mad, where it had been hijacked by the devious and misunderstood by, whathaveyou, in oxford, and those two came to mind. I sought to defend the Christian right to own the festive period, but I don't observe any religious elements myself and find the whole thing, especially the commercialism, the endless mince pies and fake snow, utterly absurd.

I certainly wasn't courting controversy or out to offend, but i am on strong painkillers so its probably best I get my coat.

WriterDude said:

I certainly wasn't courting controversy or out to offend, but i am on strong painkillers so its probably best I get my coat.

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I will swap you a coat for some strong painkillers

mccardey said:

I will swap you a coat for some strong painkillers

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Its a deal. And I finally got the labour joke.

I'm not having a good day.

WriterDude said:

And I finally got the labour joke.

I'm not having a good day.

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It wasn't a very good joke

Lol that Birmingham thing reminds me of the "controversy" in Sydney last year about the banners & posters around the Rocks that said "Very Merry", omitting Christmas. The snow flake crew (our mate Pauline et al) lost their mind because apparently its an example of political correctness gone too far.

Nope, just hipster minimalist copy. All fine.

Funny how the free speech warriors are the most easily offended.

WriterDude said:

I sought to defend the Christian right to own the festive period, but I don't observe any religious elements myself and find the whole thing, especially the commercialism, the endless mince pies and fake snow, utterly absurd.

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I think you could also argue, though, that the mainstream secularization of Christmas is what takes it away from Christians, and that not automatically using "Christmas" to describe secular celebrations gives recognition to the fact that Christmas is a religious holiday that has meaning for some people.

I don't think that's the "right" view, and a lot of Christians have no problem with their holidays being mainstream. But a lot of "PC gone awry" scenarios have more than one dimension or perspective to them.

andiwrite said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative or insensitive. I just don't get it. What IS an author supposed to do? I've seen just as many complaints that there are no POC main characters. So I started making an effort to put more POC in my books, and then I started seeing all these complaints about stealing stories and own voices, etc. It's really frustrating. I just want to tell stories.

A lot of my frustration and "write whatever the hell you want" response comes from having tried to be sensitive and it seeming like there is no way to please people. Eventually, I just gave up.

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Honestly, for the most part it's a lot like any other critique you might get. If multiple people are bothered by how you wrote a POC character, that may be something to take seriously. If it's one or two people, you consider what they're saying, but it's possible you won't agree with them or that you'll see their point but decide not to follow their advice. That can be a valid choice.

I see a lot of people say that they're scared of reactions because of how "extreme" people have gotten, but I don't often see people define what sort of reaction that they're scared of. I think that can be important to really think about and unpack.

Are you scared of facing serious harassment or threats? That can be a possibility any time we out ourselves out there in a way people may disagree with, but it's not always a likely scenario. How many examples have you witnessed, and what were the contexts?

In terms of threats to writers and other creative people, most of the serious attack campaigns seem to come from far-right trolls who target marginalized writers, not marginalized people targeting privileged writers. I've worried before about attracting dangerous attention for my writing, but only when writing about my own marginalized identities. And only from people outside those communities.

What I have seen a lot more frequently is that, say, a POC writer will publish a calm, non-inflammatory article on BuzzFeed or an entertainment site talking about how they, personally, saw racist undertones in a movie or book. And 85% of the comments will be from people lambasting the author of the article for being too sensitive and "making everything about race." I seldom see any repercussions for the creator of the work being criticized unless the story was really that bad. And if you are scared about someone writing an article about how they found your book racist, I feel like the best course of action is to accept this as an opinion based on that person's perspective and not necessarily as an objective failing in your part.

This isn't meant to dismiss your concerns, because they may be valid. But I think it's helpful to look at it in perspective and consider the likelihood of different scenarios occurring or what the most realistic consequences of those scenarios would be. We're living in a time when the internet allows for controversies to blow up in a huge way, but the risk is not going to be equal in all situations.

ETA: Basically, criticism and backlash can range from anything from a couple bad Amazon reviews to a couple articles online to a Gamergate-level harassment campaign. These possibilities aren't equally likely and don't have equal stakes, and while, say, getting a couple bad Amazon reviews calling your book racist would be demoralizing, it's relatively harmless.

My only suggestion is to be very thorough in your research, and that includes lots of reading. James Michener covered a lot of taboo subjects in his books. You have every right to write what you want, but you owe it to yourself to be aware of other people's perceptions. John Steinbeck had to leave Salinas, California because "The Grapes of Wrath" hit too close to home. Even though every bit of it was based on documented journalism, there were folks who hated him for the rest of his life. James Baldwin criticized Richard Wright's novel Native Son, insisting Wright didn't go far enough in portraying the struggle of black Americans of the day.

Be a decent and respectful person. Just like a science fiction writer goes to a scientist to learn about outer space, it might be a good idea to find some indigenous folk who'd be willing to talk to you. However, also keep this in mind: if you try to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one, especially yourself.

andiwrite said:

Yeah, I understand. It just worries me how extreme it's getting. Are we going to reach a point where authors will be shunned for writing POC characters? I never thought I would have to worry about having a black MC, and now with how touchy people are, I've at times felt tempted to cut those characters. It really upsets me because I love my POC characters and if I only wrote about white people, I feel people would say THAT was racist too.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or insensitive. I just don't get it. What IS an author supposed to do? I've seen just as many complaints that there are no POC main characters. So I started making an effort to put more POC in my books, and then I started seeing all these complaints about stealing stories and own voices, etc. It's really frustrating. I just want to tell stories.

A lot of my frustration and "write whatever the hell you want" response comes from having tried to be sensitive and it seeming like there is no way to please people. Eventually, I just gave up.

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There is a huuuge difference between "pleasing people" and "not wanting to hurt people". I ignore one and pay a lot of attention to the other.

The problem with the "there's no pleasing everyone so just write whatever the hell you want" stance is that it feels a lot like "who cares about those pesky minorities? We didn't listen to them before, why should we listen to them now?" It comes across as dismissing and shutting down the very people you want to write about.

I don't know that there's a right answer here. I don't think authors of any color should be stopped from writing characters from other cultures, but at the same time that's a personal opinion and I feel very conflicted about it, especially given the fact that publishers are more likely pick up a book about a PoC written by a white author than a book about a PoC written by a PoC. Which is massively fucked up, but there you go. Also, while I have greatly enjoyed some books written by white authors that are about PoCs, I have come across many more books that were probably written with the best intentions but end up hurting the very people the writers are writing about due to bad research or lack of sensitivity readers or entitlement, or whatever.

As an example, just look at the OP -- He wants to write First Nations characters, but proudly insists on calling them "Indians", a term which he *knows* isn't for him to use, but he feels entitled to use it anyway, because fuck FN people for wanting to define themselves, and THIS GUY is the guy you're telling to "write whatever the hell you want", because "people are offended over EVERYTHING these days". I mean...REALLY?? I get defending the rights of people who genuinely want to write PoC characters and approach it with respect and dignity, but THIS GUY?? I just...*headdesk*

*deep breaths*

So...what's a writer to do? I'm still a believer of "write what you want", even after all this. Recently, my country put our city's governor in prison for "blasphemy". His crime was telling Muslims that they can vote for a non-Muslim. God. Just writing that is making my chest tighten. I have a serious aversion to any kind of censorship, so yes, I support the right for writers to write what they want.

But.

Not with the OP's attitude of entitlement. And not with the attitude of "fuck it, write what you want", but with the attitude of "I am borrowing from someone else's culture and I am aware that I am borrowing, therefore I shall treat this thing which is NOT MINE with respect, that I may return it UNDAMAGED. If you tell me that I am misusing it, I will fucking LISTEN and LEARN instead of getting defensive, even if I may not agree with you."

Write whatever you want or the censorship and silencing of writers and artists will continue and worsen. If it is allowed to continue, a writer will only be allowed to write characters that are exactly the same as the writer. The next step will be to say men cannot write women characters.

Mark Twain is a great example of what using POC characters can do for society. I'd say stand your ground and defend your opinions no matter what. Many authors have taken hits for having a different opinion but they keep at it. If you don't get published you could always self-publish.

Hublocker, just ignore all the PC noise. A lot of great works of fiction never would have come to be if their authors had been concerned with cultural pressure (like PC). Write your story, do your best to sell it, and let the chips fall where they may.

Fabio_of_Mullets said:

Write whatever you want or the censorship and silencing of writers and artists will continue and worsen. If it is allowed to continue, a writer will only be allowed to write characters that are exactly the same as the writer. The next step will be to say men cannot write women characters.

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Or the next step will be to say men can't write women characters disrespectfully...which I think is what people have been saying when it comes to PoC? If the OP were talking about writing female characters and calls them "broads" or "pussies" and then says, "Oops, I called them pussies. I know it's not the PC term or the term they let other people use, but whatevs." Would that be okay? Would you still be all "write whatever you want"?

JNG01 said:

Hublocker, just ignore all the PC noise. A lot of great works of fiction never would have come to be if their authors had been concerned with cultural pressure (like PC). Write your story, do your best to sell it, and let the chips fall where they may.

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Must be nice to be able to dismiss valid issues that affect people's lives as "PC noise".

Putputt said:

There is a huuuge difference between "pleasing people" and "not wanting to hurt people". I ignore one and pay a lot of attention to the other.

The problem with the "there's no pleasing everyone so just write whatever the hell you want" stance is that it feels a lot like "who cares about those pesky minorities? We didn't listen to them before, why should we listen to them now?" It comes across as dismissing and shutting down the very people you want to write about.

I don't know that there's a right answer here. I don't think authors of any color should be stopped from writing characters from other cultures, but at the same time that's a personal opinion and I feel very conflicted about it, especially given the fact that publishers are more likely pick up a book about a PoC written by a white author than a book about a PoC written by a PoC. Which is massively fucked up, but there you go. Also, while I have greatly enjoyed some books written by white authors that are about PoCs, I have come across many more books that were probably written with the best intentions but end up hurting the very people the writers are writing about due to bad research or lack of sensitivity readers or entitlement, or whatever.

As an example, just look at the OP -- He wants to write First Nations characters, but proudly insists on calling them "Indians", a term which he *knows* isn't for him to use, but he feels entitled to use it anyway, because fuck FN people for wanting to define themselves, and THIS GUY is the guy you're telling to "write whatever the hell you want", because "people are offended over EVERYTHING these days". I mean...REALLY?? I get defending the rights of people who genuinely want to write PoC characters and approach it with respect and dignity, but THIS GUY?? I just...*headdesk*

*deep breaths*

So...what's a writer to do? I'm still a believer of "write what you want", even after all this. Recently, my country put our city's governor in prison for "blasphemy". His crime was telling Muslims that they can vote for a non-Muslim. God. Just writing that is making my chest tighten. I have a serious aversion to any kind of censorship, so yes, I support the right for writers to write what they want.

But.

Not with the OP's attitude of entitlement. And not with the attitude of "fuck it, write what you want", but with the attitude of "I am borrowing from someone else's culture and I am aware that I am borrowing, therefore I shall treat this thing which is NOT MINE with respect, that I may return it UNDAMAGED. If you tell me that I am misusing it, I will fucking LISTEN and LEARN instead of getting defensive, even if I may not agree with you."

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I really like this post.

Fabio_of_Mullets said:

Write whatever you want or the censorship and silencing of writers and artists will continue and worsen.

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For the love of all that's holy, stop using the word censorship in ignorant and inaccurate ways. It reducing the true damage of real censorship.

Telling someone that they are portraying people in inaccurate or inappropriate ways is not censorship.

Censorship refers to the state controlling personal public expression via the actions of a censor.

Individuals, even businesses, controlling what is acceptable in their spaces is not censorship.

Readers telling writers that they have portrayed a group of people in inappropriate ways isn't censorship.

And this is a particularly ignorant remark:

Mark Twain is a great example of what using POC characters can do for society. I'd say stand your ground and defend your opinions no matter what. Many authors have taken hits for having a different opinion but they keep at it. If you don't get published you could always self-publish.

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The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is truly a great American novel, and Twain does make some interesting points. He also makes points he didn't set out to make; including demonstrating that Twain, despite his own personal convictions and intentions, was still racist as hell, a victim of his own age, era, class and culture.

But in a larger arena, as much as I value the novel as Twain published it, I absolutely can understand a person choosing not to read it because they're Black and reading the word nigger 219 times is completely unacceptable and deeply offensive. I can understand objections to "Injun" too. Personally, as a teacher, I've talked about the words and their implications, rather than remove them, but people can make their own choices about what they read and how they speak.

Removing the word is censorship. Objecting to it isn't.

If writers expect people to read them, writers need to expect people to not like, or hate, or strongly object to what they write. This is the nature of writing. It isn't going to change.

Fabio_of_Mullets said:

If it is allowed to continue, a writer will only be allowed to write characters that are exactly the same as the writer. The next step will be to say men cannot write women characters.

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No one here is telling writers that they can only write characters like themselves. The truth is that writers are always writing about the Other. The things we are not. It's not new. But there are better ways to go about it, including research, including using informed readers, including reading and listening. Writing the other is hard, but not impossible.

Writers do it all the damn time.

But isn't it better to get it right?

Isn't it better to be authentic?

Isn't it better to not inadvertently offend people you'd like to have as readers?

JNG01 said:

Hublocker, just ignore all the PC noise. A lot of great works of fiction never would have come to be if their authors had been concerned with cultural pressure (like PC). Write your story, do your best to sell it, and let the chips fall where they may.

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I can see some new members haven't read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write.

Particularly this part:

MacAllister said:

The complexity and diversity in our backgrounds can be much more difficult to face and deal with, honestly, when things are couched in terms of "gosh, it was all just in good fun" because of the built-in refusal to examine underlying attitudes of exclusion, or "I'm normal and you're not" -- which by extension implies that anyone who insists on examining exactly that is humorless and "PC."

Which reminds me -- accusing each other of "being PC" when you disagree really isn't cool. And what it usually boils down to is that someone is being a jerk or a bigot -- maybe inadvertently, maybe not -- and gets called on it which makes that person defensive.

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mccardey said:

I really like this post.

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I really like that post too. It's about writing true.

Putputt said:

Not with the OP's attitude of entitlement. And not with the attitude of "fuck it, write what you want", but with the attitude of "I am borrowing from someone else's culture and I am aware that I am borrowing, therefore I shall treat this thing which is NOT MINE with respect, that I may return it UNDAMAGED. If you tell me that I am misusing it, I will fucking LISTEN and LEARN instead of getting defensive, even if I may not agree with you."

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Putputt said:

As an example, just look at the OP -- He wants to write First Nations characters, but proudly insists on calling them "Indians", a term which he *knows* isn't for him to use, but he feels entitled to use it anyway, because fuck FN people for wanting to define themselves, and THIS GUY is the guy you're telling to "write whatever the hell you want", because "people are offended over EVERYTHING these days". I mean...REALLY?? I get defending the rights of people who genuinely want to write PoC characters and approach it with respect and dignity, but THIS GUY?? I just...*headdesk*

*deep breaths*

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He's clearly a hero for not bowing down to PC law. Please, some respect. He's fighting for all of us.

AW Admin said:

For the love of all that's holy, stop using the word censorship in ignorant and inaccurate ways. It reducing the true damage of real censorship.

Telling someone that they are portraying people in inaccurate or inappropriate ways is not censorship.

Censorship refers to the state controlling personal public expression via the actions of a censor.

Individuals, even businesses, controlling what is acceptable in their spaces is not censorship.

Readers telling writers that they have portrayed a group of people in inappropriate ways isn't censorship.

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Censorship is an interesting word because in this instance it flips the narrative and turns the writer into a victim. Instead of a writer being called out, they're being "censored".