The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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FM St George

Re: Steve wuvs me...

"I can't believe anyone is buying this tripe!

Those poor guys. They're wandering around carrying signs that read "I'm a sucker. Take me for all I'm worth."

I know... your heart breaks, in a way...

I mean, a hundred bucks for a booth? Okay, the "advertising" may count for something, but let's face it - it's not exactly going to be much more than a mention in the paper and a flash on the telly screen... and then they STILL have to bring their own books!

wow...

*shakes head*

I'm not sure what's sadder - the fact that these people are spending money hand over fist for maybe a buck profit a book or that there are so many out there who will take advantage of them with scams like this...
 

CWGranny

Re: Steve wuvs me...

Wow, what a shock. You mean the author support team for a BOOK PUBLISHER doesn't understand basic copyright? What a surprise. I am sure Hamish will attempt to enlighten them.

Hey, I would feel comfortable knowing my publisher didn't know copyright law...suuuuurrrrreeeeee.

Gran
 

FM St George

Re: Steve wuvs me...

*puts up hand*

let me point out that I am NOT ashamed of the comments that have been crossposted in any way, shape or form. I'd be a fool to post anything about PA and not assume that it might possibly get back to their ears. I am bothered that they are allowed this to happen in that it could encourage other PA authors to harass me and sets a bad precedent in that I have no way to respond and defend my words.

I did forward all the info to Hamish and have faith that he will be sending them a note - but I did want to make that clear; there is NO way I'd ever retract said comments - my complaint is not that they've been exposed to the innocent virgins of the PA boards, but that I have no opportunity to comment and the encouragement of the poster (and now, PA) for people to harass me because I'm not toeing the party line.

just wanted to say that...
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Steve wuvs me...

A buck in profit?

Let's see. Someone check me if I'm wrong.

Typical PA book is $19.95. 30% author discount, Author pays $13.965 each, or $698.25 for a carton of fifty. Plus $100 booth space, $798.25.

Selling them at cover price brings in $997.50 if they all sell.

So, the typical author on this gig would have to pay less than $199.25 for travel to Dayton, meals, and lodging, and sell fifty books to make a profit.
 

DaveKuzminski

Another train wreck in the making

Well, this will probably become another signing fiasco as I just don't see all of the participating authors succeeding, if any. Why? Because they are writers who should leave the sales and marketing to those who know how to do it well. That much is evident from their previous signing reports where very few of the participants managed to sell much of their inventory.
 

astonwest

Re: Steve wuvs me...

I sort of figured they'd come back with something such as that...very sad they're so predictable...

As for the "multi-author deal', I'm a little confused...Is this a bookstore that will be offering stalls for $100 each? Is this a book fair of some sort, or just a signing within a store? I've never heard of a store selling spots at a signing before...yikes!

There was a book fair of some sort around here last summer...they wanted $150 for a booth, and obviously, I'd have to supply my own books...the financials, as pointed out earlier, don't make sense...even if you were to somehow pull a rabbit out of the hat, and sell all your books for full price.

(With the current offer) Even at a 40% discount (which they generally will allow for orders of around 50 copies or so)...you'd fork out $698.50 (books + booth), and in the end, would only make $997.50, so roughly a $300 profit, assuming all books sold...which is a fairly big assumption, especially in a group signing setting...

I wonder if they'll get a full table, or be crammed 4-to-a-table, as I've seen done elsewhere...

I wish them all the luck in the world, though...
 

emeraldcite

Re: Steve wuvs me...

yeah, this is some kind of knick-knack store, and the owner has graciously declined any cut from the books....of course, 100 bucks per author would cover anything they'd possibly make from selling the books. lol
 

RealityChuck

Re: Steve wuvs me...

Jim -- it is highly unlikely and PA author is going to do that sort of analysis. They will go and brag about how they sold 5 books. If you bring up the numbers, the heavy-duty rationalizations will go into effect.

I found this PA thread very interesting: www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2313.htm

Subject: How many books sold

Some replies:

"if I have sold 20; I am satisfied."
"(If they [count the copies I bought myself], I've broken my first 100, but if they don't, I've got a long way to go!)
"I'm up to about 250 books sold that I know about."

As a perspective, my novel (which had pretty lousy PR and mediocre distribution from a major publisher) sold 16,000.
 

FM St George

Re: low expectations

true - and given that PA basically forces the author to resell books without any support or assistance, I would consider selling twenty books to be a major accomplishment.

I know that I've actually sold 18 books from PA directly ( via their esteemed royalty check/receipt in August) and personally sold another five this past Christmas at a much lower price to online friends to get rid of my "stash" - ordered twenty for a local book fair that got pretty well rained out. I dropped the price to $9.99 so I was making little profit, but at least I could honestly promote the book at that price.

but these people really don't do the math - I asked questions when I still had access about how they did their accounting and got little to no response - while it may be some sort of tax maneuver to "lose" money to defer this and that, I doubt it's actually planned. I seriously doubt you could find a single PA author who's made a profit; given the stunts and expenses they seem to be constantly bragging about incurring in order to resell their overpriced copies purchased from PA.
 

astonwest

Re: low expectations

"I dropped the price to $9.99 so I was making little profit, but at least I could honestly promote the book at that price."

I did the same thing...the problem, however, is though I don't feel like a crook selling copies for $10 (as I did while trying to sell them at $16.95/$19.95), I'm to the point now where I just don't care to promote it anymore...(which is sad, considering how much stock I have left......guess I'll be giving most of them away)

I imagine there are probably a few (maybe more) PA authors who have either made a profit or not lost any money...most of those, I don't imagine you'll find posting on their board...because they'll be the ones not purchasing their own books, and not marketing their books themselves (using expensive methods such as guitar giveaways and such)...

Big Daddy West
:hat
 

emeraldcite

the disease spreads

this is frightening...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9040.htm

the problem with this is that the whole class could come out, conceivably, published. that is a scary.

on the bright side: the class is in the 'life-long learning' center, which means that it isn't part of the university's curriculum, but rather a part of their continuing education and community programs.

interesting, nonetheless.
 

Ed Williams 3

All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independence

...Books" mean for a PA author?
 

FM St George

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

actually, they've never really clarified it; despite posts asking.

the idea seems to be that they get into the returns program, but no one seems to be able to verify that, including the one or two authors who have managed to sell 500. The problem of if you purchase the 500 yourself or if they're "cold" sales is also never really addressed properly, it seems.

I found it rather depressing that for all the blathering a lot of these authors do, only one or two of them have sold 500 copies. That's darned depressing, considering most of them have been spending money hand over fist to promote them by purchasing copies and reselling.
 

FM St George

Re: and the horror continues...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2327.htm

now here's a good solid group asking for some discussion as to the no-return policy that we've all hit the wall with...

and note that the PA Infocenter hits back with the same prattle as usual; reprinted numerous times and never really dealing with the question - wonder if any of them will have the guts to ask it to the PA reps at the convention where they can't hide?

I like the part about how everyone's now going to a no-return policy... really...

:p
 

astonwest

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

"the idea seems to be that they get into the returns program, but no one seems to be able to verify that, including the one or two authors who have managed to sell 500."

Two things here...one is that having a book in IB allows Waldenbooks stores to return their unsold copies to PA, as long as they bought direct from PA (and PA still doesn't return 100% of the money)...there has never been any clarification on whether Waldenbooks managers get to make the decision on which books to stock, or whether it still has to go through their corporate regional centers...

Second, I know you keep repeating the remark about 1 or 2 authors have managed to sell 500...but I think you're only basing that on how many actually show themselves on the PA board...I personally know of others who don't frequent the PA board at all, and many who have sold more than 1000 (yes, I know, if they had been picked up by a true traditional publisher, they probably would have sold more than ten times that amount)...but to make a remark that only 1 or 2 of their authors have reached the 500 mark is simply opening a spot for any debate opponent to exploit in an argument...

"The problem of if you purchase the 500 yourself or if they're "cold" sales is also never really addressed properly, it seems."

It was originally addressed, by an Infocenter lackey making the remark that all purchases counted towards the 500, regardless of where they came from...I'm certain that was put into place to generate a huge influx of author orders...

Then I read later (I haven't read the PA boards in some time now (other than the "see this" links on many of these threads), so don't know what else has come about since) where an author was told that self-orders didn't count towards qualification in IB...I personally figured that might be the case, considering all the emphasis placed by PA on how it had the final say in who got in...

Here, buy a ton of books...but that doesn't guarantee you get in...classic...reminds me of a similar tactic in offering a sales advance...

(one would tend to wonder at PA being selective about their books, because it should make people think that 'not all PA books are worthy of being published by a "stricter standards" publisher'...maybe that's just me...)

OK, I'm going to rant now...based on the thread FM linked to:

Infocenter lackey writes:

"PublishAmerica has an account with B&N and many other bookstores, including chains, and they buy our books all the time."

No crap, folks...many readers order a book through a bookstore. B&N is a bookstore...if a reader orders a book, of COURSE they're going to place an order...this says nothing about B&N stocking, or making purchases for signings (and even then, many folks will work out a deal with a manager to buy unused stock, effectively making a "return" out of the order)...

"Major chain bookstores have no policy against stocking non-returnable books."

I refer folks to other threads in which I quoted B&N corporate policy fact sheets...

"Actually, Barnes and Noble has quadrupled the number of books they order from PublishAmerica during the past year."

See the previous comment about customer orders...

"Thousands, each and every month, of PublishAmerica books are sold in bookstores."

Ditto. (and considering they come out with roughly 250-300 books a month, that's only 3-4 orders per book...that's sad)

"Hundreds of bookstores across the nation stock our books."

How many bookstores are there in the nation? At one time, I had my book stocked in 5 stores here in town (and this town has less than 500,000 people)...So, if 19 other people were able to do that (out of something like 3-4000 authors?) in their similar- or larger-sized towns, that would be a true statement...but it doesn't make it impressive...

"PublishAmerica books have the same chance of making it onto a bookstore shelf as do the books of any publisher."

Perhaps any other POD publisher...oddly enough, I see a ton of books from TOR and Putnam on my local bookstore shelves...and very few PA books (mine and another author or two busting their humps)...I guess if they want to get technical, every book has a 50% shot of getting on a shelf...it either does or doesn't...1 or the other = 50%...

"Bookstores will generally stock a book that they think will sell"

So, they don't believe most PA books will sell? That should be a wake-up call for many folks...sigh.

(again, the company telling people their books aren't worthy of being published...shouldn't a book be sellable if it's worthy of being published?)

"Please do not judge a bookstore's corporate policy by what one local manager or one letter tells you."

If that letter happens to be FROM the corporate office, I would think I'd be okay in judging at that point...granted, there will always be the chance the manager will want to bend or break the rules for a particular book, but banking on those odds is ludicrous.

Oh well...it's the same old song and dance they always use when people bring up the return policy...I'm through with my rant for now...

Allen (PA author) wrote:

"How can we affect the process so that we are the number one publisher in the US?"

I'm in no way trying to pick on this author in particular...but when did "we" become a publisher? Aren't "we" authors, the ones writing the books? Just thought that was odd...

Big Daddy West
:hat
 

Dodgem James

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

"I found it rather depressing that for all the blathering a lot of these authors do, only one or two of them have sold 500 copies."

Keep in mind that 500 copies sold does not guarantee you entrance into Independence Books. It just gets you a "review."

It's my bet that many of the 500 copies sold authors are nearing their 7 year mark and simply turning down the chance to be a part of I.B..

DJ (the author formerly known as Canada James)
 

Dodgem James

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

"...but to make a remark that only 1 or 2 of their authors have reached the 500 mark is simply opening a spot for any debate opponent to exploit in an argument..."

Careful, Aston, I got called a bigot for suggesting that very thing.

DJ
 

vstrauss

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

>>one is that having a book in IB allows Waldenbooks stores to return their unsold copies to PA, as long as they bought direct from PA (and PA still doesn't return 100% of the money)...there has never been any clarification on whether Waldenbooks managers get to make the decision on which books to stock, or whether it still has to go through their corporate regional centers...<<

According to the PA press release I saw about Independence Books, there are a number of restrictions, in addition to ordering direct from PA: a pre-payment requirement, no refunds after 90 days, and order minimums. This is not going to be all that attractive to bookstores--especially the pre-payment.

I think this is yet another of those things that is designed to make PA look good to its authors while ensuring that it takes very little financial risk.

- Victoria
 

astonwest

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

"Careful, Aston, I got called a bigot for suggesting that very thing."

I think it's probably all in the delivery...

"According to the PA press release I saw about Independence Books, there are a number of restrictions, in addition to ordering direct from PA: a pre-payment requirement, no refunds after 90 days, and order minimums. This is not going to be all that attractive to bookstores--especially the pre-payment."

Unfortunately, what has bothered me from the very beginning with the IB imprint is the notion that Waldenbooks will be able to "stock your books" when you're in the imprint...

As Victoria mentioned above, there is a pre-payment requirement, they must order direct, and even then, they only get a portion of the payment back...combined with the order minimums, it's going to be a tough sell to local managers...

And unfortunately, I believe that's STILL going to be the only way to get books stocked. It was implied that Waldenbooks would be stocking these books nationwide (something which still gets propogated on the PA boards from time to time)...however, corporate fact sheets continue to say that regional buyers have rules set up for title purchases...one of which (RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE SHEET) is that they "will consider for purchase only books which are available through an authorized, designated Wholesaler or Distributor. Books must have an ISBN and EAN barcode."

Two strikes...have to order direct, and I don't believe PA books have an EAN barcode, just an ISBN...

So, in other words, authors in IB will still have to bust their hump going into local stores and trying to get local managers to order copies to display in their local store...and this time, the stores have to buy a minimum number of copies...and take a gamble (with the partial refund...though better than taking a gamble with the full cost, at least they used to have something to show for their expense at the end of the day--stocked books)...

Who knows?
 

FM St George

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

and yet it's almost impossible to find this information anywhere on the PA site... in fact, most of what you learn is from rumors repeated on the boards from other authors and tidbits of tantalizing info dropped by the Infocenter when a discussion gets too heated...
 

emeraldcite

...

originally, i thought IB was going to be their hardcover arm...funny that they would release everything ass-backwards. paperback first, then hardcover.
 

Dodgem James

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

"I think it's probably all in the delivery..."

And who is delivering.

"...they "will consider for purchase only books which are available through an authorized, designated Wholesaler or Distributor. Books must have an ISBN and EAN barcode."
"Two strikes...have to order direct, and I don't believe PA books have an EAN barcode, just an ISBN..."

PA books have an EAN barcode, that's the stripey thing on the back of your book that stores scan so they don't have to manually type in your ISBN each time a book is sold.

The strike is clear: "...will consider for purchase only books which are available through an authorized, designated Wholesaler or Distributor."

That means if they have to order direct through PA to get the returns policy, however flawed, they aren't going to because they have a policy stating they must order through Ingram, B&T, etc.
Now, Mr. Kuzminski, wouldn't that be a better warning on your site than "P&E suggests that special attention be paid to topics where their writers criticize authors outside their company for having sex scenes in their published work while giving support to their own for the same thing."

Just a thought.

DJ
 

astonwest

Re: All kidding aside, what does getting into "Independ

"And who is delivering."

But mostly how...at least the way I see it...
One could look at a prime example of bad delivery/bad reception from a few months ago.

"PA books have an EAN barcode, that's the stripey thing on the back of your book that stores scan so they don't have to manually type in your ISBN each time a book is sold."

I was under the impression that PA only used an ISBN barcode...on the back of the book...is not an EAN barcode separate from the ISBN barcode? I forget where I read about the difference between those two...

"That means if they have to order direct through PA to get the returns policy, however flawed, they aren't going to because they have a policy stating they must order through Ingram, B&T, etc."

But see, if you attempt to tell folks that (especially on the PA board), a number of things will possibly happen. 1) You'll have a multitude of authors trying to tell you that it's all the bookstore's fault, and how dare they put a rule in place to stifle new authors. 2) An Infocenter persona will come on, and give the 'copy and paste' answer to any bookstore stocking questions, telling you how there are no policies against stocking PA/POD books at any major chain stores. They may be willing to modify some of the wording to apply to Waldenbooks instead of B&N. 3) You may get your posts pulled (though I think they've decided in recent times to simply come in with a fell swoop and post their 'facts', instead of removing posts (but see #4). 4) You may get yourself banned from posting.

Unfortunately, banning and removing posts does not remove the problem at hand...which is a policy at the corporate level which hinders PA books from being stocked in a bookstore...and folks researching a decision to sign a contract with PA (or to sign a second) should have that information...

Of course, we could go on and on about this, including the possibility that PA glamorized IB just to get authors enthused enough to sell/buy more books, when from the looks of things, there aren't too many differences (in reality) between it and the regular PA imprint...but of course, that's just an assumption on my part...

Big Daddy West
:hat
 

FM St George

an oldie but a goodie...

www.fictionforum.net/writ...ew-pa.html

a PA author posted this link on the PA boards asking for PA authors to write and gush about how wonderful PA is to them and all that... 'course, the interview is over a year old...

funny how they violate half of what they say - my book wasn't anywhere near 7,000 words and yet they still accepted it; along with other childrens' books.

*laughs*

otoh, at least there's real names here... instead of the InfoCenter et al...
 
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