Historically Accurate v. Modern squick

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Rachel Udin

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I'm running into this wall. (Probably common)

I'm writing a character that's 14 and getting married at 16 (according to the original legend), but according to my research, it was normal for men (via the Kama Sutra) to ummm... bed girls as young as 8 (with instructions on how to do so.)

Kama Sutra was written in about 200 years later or so after my book starts. (You know what I mean--I know, mangled sentence.)

The age of marriage didn't raise to 15-16, until the Mughal Empire with, I believe, Akbar. (a thousand years plus a few hundred later)

How do I get past the squick without the gut-jumping racism, etc that would come with it?

Or, how in general, do you get past the modern cultural changes v. the real history (Such as torture?) without making your characters, ya know, unlikable?
 

DeleyanLee

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My answer? Don't mention it. Don't reference it unless that detail is important to the plot (ie: she gives birth at a very young age and that child is important in history).

People will assume whatever will make them the most comfortable in the absence of stated fact in a book. When faced with a man marrying a child bride, most people will default to "Well, he just won't have sex with her until she's old enough" and go with that--unless you contradict that default.

People who know history will know better and have already dealt with it. People who don't know history will make themselves comfortable. Take people out of those comfort zones only for a really good story reason.

Good luck with it.
 

angeliz2k

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I think some readers might be turned off by the underside of history. They might go "ick" about children being "bedded". That's their prerogative.

As a writer of historical fiction, though, I think you have to own it. If that's part of the time period, if that's how things were done, then go for it. Make it part of your world, make it something unquestioned. The people living in that time and place, in general, would have just considered it part of life. Go with it.

There are plenty of modern stories that contain an ick" factor. There are troubling aspects to every time and culture. You can't please everyone; you'll always offend someone.

BTW, Margaret Beaufort was 13 (12?) when she gave birth to Henry Tudor, later Henry VII. /random historical fact
 

Puma

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My reaction to your question is to present it honestly. It's history, it did happen, we might not approve of it now, but that's the way things were and if people want to learn about history they have to be willing to accept things they might not want to hear about.

A while back I had a friend who was from India. She and her husband were happily married and had been for some time. When they were married she had absolutely no idea about sex; she thought if she drank from a glass of water he'd drunk from she'd become pregnant. On her wedding night she was horrified and cried, "If this is what marriage is about I want nothing to do with it."

I think if you do some thinking about how to present it from her perspective - kid's curiosity about the opposite sex to the horror of realization - you ought to be all right. Good luck. Puma
 

Raula

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I agree with the advice given by others. Part of the fascination of History is, at times, the 'icky' parts. Yes, it's not nice ... but it's also why people watch horror films!
 

angeliz2k

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My reaction to your question is to present it honestly. It's history, it did happen, we might not approve of it now, but that's the way things were and if people want to learn about history they have to be willing to accept things they might not want to hear about.

A while back I had a friend who was from India. She and her husband were happily married and had been for some time. When they were married she had absolutely no idea about sex; she thought if she drank from a glass of water he'd drunk from she'd become pregnant. On her wedding night she was horrified and cried, "If this is what marriage is about I want nothing to do with it."

I think if you do some thinking about how to present it from her perspective - kid's curiosity about the opposite sex to the horror of realization - you ought to be all right. Good luck. Puma

Interesting story! I'm hoping to make use of a misunderstanding of matters sexual in my current WIP. It's a shiny brand new idea that I quite like. Because the MC doesn't understand the sex act, she gets tricked into doing something she'd rather not do. That is all I will say, haha.
 

Deb Kinnard

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I was told by two editors in my genre (Christian fic) that my heroine MUST be 18, not 16 in my 973 Wales book. "Our readers won't accept a married heroine that young."

I'm like, "What about the truth? These people didn't think like we do."

Didn't fly. If you don't hear "ewww!" from editors and agents, I'd say be true to your era.
 

Flicka

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If I worried about modern squick, I wouldn't be able to write any of the stories I want to.

Again, it's about settling for what you audience is - people who are turned off by squick or people who are turned off by historical inaccuracies? Maybe you can't please both.
 

angeliz2k

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If I worried about modern squick, I wouldn't be able to write any of the stories I want to.

Again, it's about settling for what you audience is - people who are turned off by squick or people who are turned off by historical inaccuracies? Maybe you can't please both.

You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time . . .
 

Rachel Udin

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Have they forgotten Romeo and Juliet?

When Adam delved and Eve span, what were their ages then? :D

They weren't 9 or 10... and didn't have an instruction manual on how to sleep with them. I have to look up how common it was--would she be close to being considered an old maid at 14/15? Should it have been done earlier, etc.
***
So I'll go with the torture. I guess since I have realistic historical version of rape, I should go with the torture and then matching up 8 year olds to older men....

Thanks. Not very familiar with the Historical Fiction crowd. Though since I'm doing Historical Fantasy... probably the Fantasy crowd will be squicked. Oh well, I rather get it right than wrong.
 
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donroc

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R&J were very early teens acording to dialogue, A&E who knows can say, although Adam did have Lilith first according to some. Was there a divorce, or was he the first bigamist???? Ooops, more cans of worms. ;)
 

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As I recall, Juliet was 14 or 15. One of my anthroplolgy professors was working up an article on the onset of menses throughout the Middle Ages. As I recall, just before the Black Death in the 14th Century struck, onset was late teens. Shortly after the advent of the plague, menses dropped to around nine or ten. Her theory was that women's fertility was affected by poplulation increases and sudden drops. I never saw the completed article so I don't know what her final findings were.

In rural areas in the 19th century, girls married far younger than in more urban areas.

I do know that, due to the sensitivity of child abuse in our culture now, this is sticky topic. Smashwords even has it in there Terms of Agreement that women in sexual situations need to be 18.
 

Flicka

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As I recall, Juliet was 14 or 15. One of my anthroplolgy professors was working up an article on the onset of menses throughout the Middle Ages. As I recall, just before the Black Death in the 14th Century struck, onset was late teens. Shortly after the advent of the plague, menses dropped to around nine or ten. Her theory was that women's fertility was affected by poplulation increases and sudden drops. I never saw the completed article so I don't know what her final findings were.

In rural areas in the 19th century, girls married far younger than in more urban areas.

I do know that, due to the sensitivity of child abuse in our culture now, this is sticky topic. Smashwords even has it in there Terms of Agreement that women in sexual situations need to be 18.

According to the play, Juliet had 'not seen the change of fourteen years' so she was 13. Here (Sweden), the legal age is 15 so I suppose opinions on what age is appropriate vary even today.

ETA: for sex, I mean. I think you can get a permit to get married at that age too, but I can't remember for sure. Usually it's 18 for marriage.
 
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Tom from UK

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When I first visited Hungary (around 1979) I was told the legal age was 14, subject to a doctor's examination. I was told that this was rare in towns but not uncommon in the countryside. I believe it may have been raised since.
 

waylander

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In rural areas in the 19th century, girls married far younger than in more urban areas.

I do know that, due to the sensitivity of child abuse in our culture now, this is sticky topic. Smashwords even has it in there Terms of Agreement that women in sexual situations need to be 18.

WTF?
Mrs Jerry Lee Lewis anyone?
 

Literateparakeet

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How do I get past the squick without the gut-jumping racism, etc that would come with it?

Or, how in general, do you get past the modern cultural changes v. the real history (Such as torture?) without making your characters, ya know, unlikable?

Warning: I am a victim of childhood sexual abuse, so don't expect me to be any kind of rational of reasonable about sexual abuse of children. I can't even imagine why I would want to be.

Why do you want to get past squick and "gut-jumping racism"? Having sex with an 8 yr old child is abusive. I don't care what culture, what time frame. I don't care if they had manual that told the perverts what to do.

Thank God we live in a culture that for the most part recognizes child abuse for what it is. That is the first step towards eradicating it...if ever we will be able to do that.

Eliminating the squick should not be the goal.

I wouldn't read a book that deals with this topic (too triggering), but it wouldn't bother me that one was out there as long as it doesn't glorify it, or try to make it seem all right simply because it did happen.

For example, Kite Runner, touches on a similar topic (only it is a peer committing the abuse). But the book does not glorify it or justify it in anyway.
 

Flicka

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Warning: randomness ahead

I often see claims that women got married very young in Georgian England. It's a truth generally known, that a woman of 25 was an old maid, which is - sorry - BS. There's a historian - I don't have my books with me so I can't look her up - that actually did a fairly thorough survey and found that the median age for marriage among women in the mid-18th century was 24 years and 9 months. Yet, if you pushed that picture in a historical romance people would be outraged at your lack of research.
 

gothicangel

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Give me accuracy.

On a slight tangent, but I noticed this when I was reading Robert Fabbri's latest: very modern male [Christian] reactions to homosexual love affairs. Then I started to think about other books in the Roman genre, and they either dodge the subject or delved into modern squick. Which is why I'm looking forward to reading Madeline Miller's book, as I tackle the subject in my WIP.
 

Deb Kinnard

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In their superb book MARRIAGE AND FAMILY IN THE MIDDLE AGES, Frances and Joseph Gies talk all about this topic. Good information. The age of marriage for women in medieval Europe was always lower than that for men, and both went up and down over the centuries, probably (as Engineer Tiger says) in response to population pressure either positive or negative. I also read Daniel Herlihy's THE MEDIEVAL HOUSEHOLD, hoping for some information on how homes were managed and run, but it wasn't as good as the other title.

The core of this whole discussion is that the contemps didn't think marrying a girl off at 14 or 16 constituted sexual abuse. If we're going for accuracy, we have to some extent to put aside our modern mores and think as they did. But as the author, I have control. If 14 for my heroine squicks me out, or may squick out my readers, I can always make her 18 and have another character moan and groan about how she was kept single "too long." It's up to me, and that's fine. I do have a tendency to want to stick to their true ways in the middle ages, however.
 

Skibone21

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Well I'm pretty sure legal in West Virginia is 16 and it's ok for a man of 18 and older to have sex with a girl that's under 18 within 2 or 3 years of his age in Virginia. I don't think what you're doing is so taboo as long as you're not getting below the teenage years. In history class we were taught that it was common place for women to be courted by men in their teenage years in colonial America. It's been going on since the beginning of time.

Is the character in your book being "sold" into this marriage by her father or other family member? That could make it a bit squeamish for some readers I bet. By sold I mean arranging marriage for a daughter for some political or monetary benefit.
 

Rachel Udin

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I can slide somewhat since the legend itself says that the Queen in question did not produce a son until she was 21. (Doing simple math).

However, the larger society she lives in, the Kushan empire, did have child marriages... which, obviously, I don't condone, but I try to struggle to understand why anyhow. (Kama Sutra goes into detail about how men should be "careful" with young brides... *cough* and mentions around 8-10 as the age. Kama Sutra was written in the Kushan empire.)

I'm sweeping in more research on every day life in the time period--there are claims that child marriage was not that common, so I might be able to get away with not mentioning it at all, though I have two more marriages to contend with. It's not a pivoting point--but I thought I should be aware and edit around it. It's banned in current India, though some rural villages still practice it.

I guess no one had objections to the torture, then? You know, twisting people's legs, slapping them with large sticks, etc. Korean dramas has absolutely no scruples about showing the good or the bad guys doing torture to get information out of the suspects--treats it as fact, so I'm pretty sure that anyone from Korea won't object. (I know I have to do at least one scene) Not sure if the people from where the book will get published will take it well that the main characters do torture.... but at least it's accurate.

@Skibone
I asked, because it's a fact of the society (Kushan Empire) that child marriages happen. So having a line such as "You are only fourteen" wouldn't quite work out the way I planned. It's not pivotal to the plot at all, since the original legend has her marrying at sixteen and having a baby at twenty-one.

Original legend had the gods betroth her through a dream... (either it's her or her parents in the original, I blended the versions together.) She still wants to go for her own reasons, but that only becomes clear later.

Still, it's squick to have child brides... so I hope my further research will clarify a bit and I hope I don't have to tackle it.

http://neharaghuvanshi.wordpress.com/2011/11/12/child-marriage-in-india/

http://www.freekamasutra.com/ebook_online/3-01.htm "fully arrived at puberty" (Non-sexual content)
http://www.freekamasutra.com/ebook_online/3-03.htm (Non-sexual content) How to seduce an eleven year old according to the Kama Sutra. Squick... Uhhgghhh.

(Another manual besides the Kama Sutra--forgot which one) claimed 8-9... I think. One of the other Kamashatras.

Still raises questions--is she damaged goods at 14 already? *sighs*
 
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Skibone21

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A quote from Barbara Stanwyck in Lady of Burlesque "I went into show business when I was seven years old. Two days later the first comic I ever met stole my piggy bank in a railroad station in Portland. When I was 11 the comics were looking at my ankles. When I was 14 they were...just looking. When I was 20 I'd been stuck with enough lunch checks to pay for a three-story house."

From what I've seen throughout history is a lot of the girls were taught from an early age to expect to marry in their teens. They were shamed if they hadn't. So 14 or 16? I doubt she'd be damaged goods. As you can see in the quote above even Hollywood was joking about grown men vying for teenage girls (not to mention every new teenager on the block had to beat off the men from Elizabeth Taylor to Natalie Wood to Shirley Temple.)

I'm not sure it's that big of a deal since it's a story. Even less so if you can make it somehow apparent that it was the norm.
 

Tom from UK

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Well I'm pretty sure legal in West Virginia is 16 and it's ok for a man of 18 and older to have sex with a girl that's under 18 within 2 or 3 years of his age in Virginia.
This all goes to show how everyone sees their own culture as obviously "normal". In the UK the "age of consent" is 16. Once a girl is 16, she can have sex with a man of any age. A 40 year old guy isn't going to make a lot of friends having sex with a girl of 16 but it's not a legal matter.
 
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