Voting for McCain is like voting for...

cethklein said:

Are you shitting me? Seriously? Go into Hardcore and read any of Jimmyboy's umpteen topics then come back and say that with a straight face.

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Jimmy idealized Palin, not McCain. And you might want to read his actual posts. They are full of bs and open animosity towards Obama, but I haven't seen one where he claims McCain is going to heal the raptures, or save the world or whatever. I might be wrong as I stopped reading his posts at some point, but I don't think so. On the other hand, I can give you a boatload of unrealistic expectations from Obama (from this site).

P.S. Even if we accept what you said is true than my point is only wrong for one conservative on this site.

dmytryp said:

Jimmy idealized Palin, not McCain. And you might want to read his actual posts. They are full of bs and open animosity towards Obama, but I haven't seen one where he claims McCain is going to heal the raptures, or save the world or whatever. I might be wrong as I stopped reading his posts at some point, but I don't think so. On the other hand, I can give you a boatload of unrealistic expectations from Obama (from this site).

P.S. Even if we accept what you said is true than my point is only wrong for one conservative on this site.

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First, If you can link me to where anyone said Barack Obama can "heal the raptures" (whatever the hell that means) I'd love to see it. Let's use some realistic examples here instead of exaggerations, then we'll talk.

cethklein said:

First, If you can link me to where anyone said Barack Obama can "heal the raptures" (whatever the hell that means) I'd love to see it. Let's use some realistic examples here instead of exaggerations, then we'll talk.

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http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890810&postcount=11
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890829&postcount=15
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890869&postcount=18
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2891403&postcount=21

That's just from one thread. Would you like me to pull up the DW's poll thread? Threads around here are full of hyperbole about why Obama is great, why Obama is bad and why McCain/Palin are bad. On the other hand -- not so much of why McCain/Palin are a good choice. I think people are far more realistic about them.

dmytryp said:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890810&postcount=11
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890829&postcount=15
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2890869&postcount=18
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2891403&postcount=21

That's just from one thread. Would you like me to pull up the DW's poll thread? Threads around here are full of hyperbole about why Obama is great, why Obama is bad and why McCain/Palin are bad. On the other hand -- not so much of why McCain/Palin are a good choice. I think people are far more realistic about them.

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I see people supporting Obama in those posts. nowhere do I see anyone claiming he'll "heal the rapture" (for the record could you explain what that means?) Just because people support a candidate doesn't mean they're somehow enthralled and blindly embracing said candidate. This is probably the most irritating claim I've seen made by the anti-Obama crowd, that his supporters are somehow mesmerized by him. One can genuinely support him. You and I have had this discussion before, where you tried to pigeonhole all Obama supporters into a stereotype, I'm not wasting time having that debate again.

In none of those posts do I see blind adulation. This goes back to the discussion in the other topic about you putting words in people's mouths.

cethklein said:

I see people supporting Obama in those posts. nowhere do I see anyone claiming he'll "heal the rapture" (for the record could you explain what that means?) Just because people support a candidate doesn't mean they're somehow enthralled and blindly embracing said candidate. This is probably the most irritating claim I've seen made by the anti-Obama crowd, that his supporters are somehow mesmerized by him. One can genuinely support him.

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Who is putting words into whose mouth here? I never said people were blindly suporting him. I said they had unrealistic expectations of him (idealization). Heck several people voted for him "the best of the best" candidate. This is based on what exactly? Surely not his record. Only on his words that actually contradict his acts. This means people are expecting waaay too much of him.

cethklein said:

You and I have had this discussion before, where you tried to pigeonhole all Obama supporters into a stereotype, I'm not wasting time having that debate again.

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Either my memory fails me here or you are mistaking me for somebody else.

Who is putting words into whose mouth here? I never said people were blindly suporting him. I said they had unrealistic expectations of him (idealization). Heck several people voted for him "the best of the best" candidate. This is based on what exactly? Surely not his record.

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My guess is based on their OPINIONS. Just because you don't like his record doesn't mean others don't. They're basing what they believe about him based on what he says. Same with McCain and ALL politicians. I'll wager no one here knows Obama or McCain personally.

Only on his words that actually contradict his acts. This means people are expecting waaay too much of him.

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Welcome to American politics.

cethklein said:

My guess is based on their OPINIONS. Just because you don't like his record doesn't mean others don't. They're basing what they believe about him based on what he says. Same with McCain and ALL politicians. I'll wager no one here knows Obama or McCain personally.

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And that makes my assesment untrue, how? I see no support for such beliefs in the factual universe, in which I try to operate. If this is what their gut tells them, I have no way of contradicting it. And how is saying "people idealize Obama" or "Have unrealistic expectations from Obama" is anything other than my opinion (even if I back up this opinion with his history)? I really don't understand where are you getting. Do I have to preface everything with "imo"?

EDIT: It is not based on their opinion, by the way. It is their opinion. What is it based on I have no idea (that would be personal)

OK, you quoted me as one who "idealizes" him so I guess I have the right to defend myself!
Yes, I did make a prediction once (not on the post you quoted) that I htink Obama will go down in history as one of the greatest presidents ever. I still believe that. And still I do not idealize him. How so?

I do not idealize anybody. Much less politicians. But I do believe that there are certain individuals who are gifted in ways that most of us are not. There are people who are musically gifted, artistically gifted, scientifically gifted. Such people manage to rise to the top in whatever field they are gifted in. It is inevitable.

Any teacher can tell you that some kids have a natural skill for one subject or the other. That does not mean that they idealize those kids. It means they give the encouragement and support so that they can reach their full potential.


I believe that Obama is a born political leader, with a steady hand and a sure instinct for not only listening to those who are better informed than he is, but with the judgment to sift through information with calmness and intelligence and make the right decision. Those are hte marks of a true leader; thus my prediction.

I believe that, given the trust and votes of the American populace, Obama could reach his full potential and achieve greatness.

He is in no way a saviour. I do not see him as a spiritual leader; certainly not mine. Nor can I see myself in a crowd of people yelling "Yes we Can!" because that is simply not my way. I've never run with the crowds. I tend to stand back in silence, observe, and then make up my mind. My observations -- based on all I've seen and read about this man -- is that he has what he takes to be a great leader. He is not there yet. ANd of course he is flawed. Of course he will make mistakes. And of course he will face an uphill battle (if he wins). But he is seems to be one of those people who grow stronger through hardship, and I've always admired that quality.

Still doesn't mean I idealize him. And I have never once mentined the word rapture, Sorry, but you are projecting. Your own disdain for him is palpable, but you should not put words into the mouths of others based on that disdain.

And of course I could be entirely wrong about everything I've said above. I am only human, and can't read the future! This is nothing more than an OPINION, folks.

cethklein said:

Are you shitting me? Seriously? Go into Hardcore and read any of Jimmyboy's umpteen topics then come back and say that with a straight face.

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If one cannot reply - is it right to continually bring them up in other threads? No, but it is a nice way to get in a free smack - no?

Play fair or don't play.

If one cannot find anything other than personal attack to fight their side, then it shows them and their own lacks, rather than the one they smack.

Christine

Voting for McCain is like voting for the next guy you hope to be President.

aruna said:

OK, you quoted me as one who "idealizes" him so I guess I have the right to defend myself!

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You don't have to defend yourself as it was never meant as an attack. This is your opinion based on things that you called "intangibles". There is no way to argue with that.
"Idealize" and "idolize" are two different words. The first means (for me) -- "expecting/viewing better than the reality is". The second one is more the one you and Ceth ascribe to my opinion -- "blindly following etc".
I brought specifically this quote and not the others as an example. The reality is -- the campaign on both sides was harsh and sometimes divisive. Obama never showed signifficant bipartisanship in other than his words. Your and Ray's words -- you believe Obama can reach out and heal the divide (this is what I meant by "rapture" -- maybe i spelled it wrong) between Dems and Repubs. I see this as idealization (a sharp difference between past reality and expectations). This is my opinion and it is not based on any disdain I may or may not have for Obama. You are free to disagree with me. Many do. It'd still remain my opinion untill Obama shows otherwise in something more than words.

I hope this makes my position a little clearer.

Huh?

They are literally NOTHING alike. We haven't seen candidates with such differing views on the issues for a while now.

Turn off the news and go here:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117936

dmytryp said:

You don't have to defend yourself as it was never meant as an attack. This is your opinion based on things that you called "intangibles". There is no way to argue with that.
"Idealize" and "idolize" are two different words. The first means (for me) -- "expecting/viewing better than the reality is".

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But since we are discussing character and character qualities, "the reality" is also subjective. I may be overestimating O's character and personal qualities and potential; you may be underestimating the same. What is "the reality" here?
The most I can say is that according to the criteria by which I asses people, I don't think I am idealising. The most you can do is disagree.

As for the use of the word "healing"... I don't think it was the wrong word to use. Already we are seeing thousands of people who do not inherently belong in O's camp -- Hispanics, whites, Jews, Republicans -- crossing over to him. He speaks a univeral language; his message: "no red and blue states, we are the United States of America" is certainly all-embracing. His attempt to find areas on which all can agree on such contentious subjects as abortion is an attempt to find consensus.
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aruna said:

But since we are discussing character and character qualities, "the reality" is also subjective. I may be overestimating O's character and personal qualities and potential; you may be underestimating the same. What is "the reality" here?
The most I can say is that according to the criteria by which I asses people, I don't think I am idealising. The most you can do is disagree.

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I am sorry, we must be talking about different things. When i talk about reality -- it is not about intangibles. These are matters of perception and personal opinion. I talk about concrete actions (if they are coupled with words -- great, but words by themselves are not enough). As in verifiable record.

aruna said:

As for the use of the word "healing"... I don't think it was the wrong word to use. Already we are seeing thousands of people who do not inherently belong in O's camp -- Hispanics, whites, Jews, Republicans -- crossing over to him. He speaks a univeral language; his message: "no red and blue states, we are the United States of America" is certainly all-embracing. His attempt to find areas on which all can agree on such contentious subjects as abortion is an attempt to find consensus.
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And still almost 50% of people are not flocking to him. Just as a signifficant number of people will not be voting for him, but against McCain (or against GOP and its policies in general). I also see how bitterly divided are the two camps, with nutcases showing up on both sides (I can't compare the amounts to previous elections). I see debates here turning into shouting matches. And finally, I see Obama and his campaign fueling this divide with some of its actions. As I said, I don't blame him for this -- he wants to win and sees such tactics as necessary. The problem, I don't see it changing if he takes office.

And sadly, I am not the only one

aruna said:

Already we are seeing thousands of people who do not inherently belong in O's camp -- Hispanics, whites, Jews, Republicans -- crossing over to him.

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I think you mean to say that those who would not normally vote for a Democratic camp?

The wording that was displayed just seemed off, "...do not inherently belong..."

dmytryp said:

Based on posts in this forum? I think the expectations from him are in stark contrast to his actual abilities as president.

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Depends on what one thinks of his abilities. High expectations aren't deification, though.

kuwisdelu said:

Depends on what one thinks of his abilities. High expectations aren't deification, though.

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Noted the "I think" part?

EDIT: and I explained the difference between "idealization" and "idolising".

dmytryp said:

Noted the "I think" part?

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Yeah, sorry if my post wasn't clear. It was just a roundabout way of saying I disagree. Of course I'll be disappointed if he fails, but hey, if you can't count on a politician to disappoint, what can you count on?

dmytryp said:

I am sorry, we must be talking about different things. When i talk about reality -- it is not about intangibles. These are matters of perception and personal opinion. I talk about concrete actions (if they are coupled with words -- great, but words by themselves are not enough). As in verifiable record.

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My point is that in the case of extraordinarily talented people-- no matter in what field-- it is not necessary to jump through the usual hoops. Their whole lives become extraordinary.

Take my first husband as an analogy. He was a gifted cellist, went to a musical academy. Before graduating, he decided to audition for a top prchestra. Usually, to get into that orchestra, you need to have played in smaller orchestras beforehand, to have experience. But my guy was talented, and was accepted straight out of music academy. He had convinced the orchestra bosses that he was good enough without going through the usual channels.

Now I, and others here, believe that Obama has that talent in the politcal field; that he has the political skill, and people skills, intelligence and insight to skip the "experience" bit that most ordinary politicians have to go through.

It's only an opinion. Based on the intangibles, a feeling that we recognise that potential. A gut feeling of confidence. So the "reality" that you are looking for, a verifiable record, is irrelevant. A person of extraordinary skill can dispense with such a record.

The most you can say is that you don't agree.

(But: I happen to be a very good judge of character, though I don't expect you to believe it! In this case, only time will tell, if and when O gets elected.)

aruna said:

Obama has that talent in the politcal field; that he has the political skill, and people skills, intelligence and insight to skip the "experience" bit that most ordinary politicians have to go through.



The most you can say is that you don't agree.

.)

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I don't agree. There, I said it.

OneTeam OneDream said:

I don't agree. There, I said it.

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dmytryp said:

And still almost 50% of people are not flocking to him.

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So, here I am again!

This is kind of a glass half full/half empty argument. You are saying he "only" has 50% of the people. I say WOW! 50%, out of practically nothing! Who would have ever believed that a year ago! Isn't it just incredile that with so many cards stacked against him, his race, his name, his background in foreign countries, his disadvantaged youth, his age, his lack of excutive experience, he has come this far! Won over so many people!

If anyone had prophesied this a year ago most people would have shaken their heads in pity and said "impossible"*. People said Hillary would wipe the floor with him. Then they said McCain would wipe the floor with him.

I don't see that clean floor yet.

* Including me. Last year I thought, no way. No chance. America's not ready for a black President. etc.

Oh well.

I still think it's a historical campaign he's run.

dmytryp said:

And still almost 50% of people are not flocking to him. Just as a signifficant number of people will not be voting for him, but against McCain (or against GOP and its policies in general). I also see how bitterly divided are the two camps, with nutcases showing up on both sides (I can't compare the amounts to previous elections). I see debates here turning into shouting matches. And finally, I see Obama and his campaign fueling this divide with some of its actions. As I said, I don't blame him for this -- he wants to win and sees such tactics as necessary. The problem, I don't see it changing if he takes office.

And sadly, I am not the only one

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Obama didn't start the riff between camps, nor did McCain. This has been going on for years and years. There are those of us who wish to move on in a progressive way, and those who want things to stay the same. As the demographics of the country changes, so do the people and their ideals.



I think McCain would have been a decent president 8 years ago. Too bad he didn't win the primary back then and deliver us from the disaster of the Bush years.

But getting back to change and the way the candidates are different....I can't see that McCain is anything different than the status quo.

He only acts like he cares for the middle class because he has to have their vote to win an election. In my opinion, the only thing McCain has going for him in this election, is the color of his skin. He's white and many of the people voting for him do not believe America is ready for a black president.

Well, too bad. Maybe a white person with traditional values doesn't want a black president, but he/she is fast becoming a minority in this country anyway. It's time to put a brand new face on our country and Obama may be that face.

I heard an interview today, on NPR, with the lead-writer of Saturday Night Live. He said the reason they didn't do too many sketches about Obama was because the man is almost impossible to satirize. He never misses. The only thing they can do is play off his associations, like Ayers and Wright. But Obama rarely says anything stupid and is so eloquent and well-spoken, it's virtually impossible to make him look stupid.

Palin, on the other hand, is a comedy writers dream. Just saying what I heard the writer say. You know, I personally look forward to having a president who represents all of the people, not just some.