Voting for McCain is like voting for...

maestrowork

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Neither one will have a dime to spend on their campaign promised projects, neither one will be able to deliver the tax cuts, and neither one will bring troops home in 2009.

Call me naive, but I think there's something more important than actual numbers and bills signed and policies carried out. There's just something intangible about Obama's ability to lead. People tend to focus a lot of what exactly they could or couldn't do, but forget about things such as hope, inspiration, unity, etc. etc. that really can't be measured by numbers and charts.

We don't know yet, and we probably won't know until the first 100 days (if Obama wins), or 4 years later. But I'm optimistic. I haven't been optimistic since 2000.
 
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maestrowork

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:)

Anyway, to me, the basic flaw of GWB's presidency wasn't exactly what bills he signed or what money he spent (although the debts and deficits were mind-numbingly worsening), but his inability to actually lead and inspire. That's the kind of intangibles you can't really buy for a world leader. That's what I'm saying. Now, whether Obama can transcend his campaign to actual leadership -- we'll have to wait and see, provided that he gets elected, of course. If McCain gets elected, I'm a little less optimistic about his ability to inspire and lead. But again, we'll have to wait and see.

But like I said before, I'm more optimistic either way than I could say about the Bush administration 8 or 4 years ago. And I have to say my intuition was right on (my intuition, by the way, has never been wrong and has served me very well so far. ;) )
 
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cethklein

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Call me naive, but I think there's something more important than actual numbers and bills signed and policies carried out. There's just something intangible about Obama's ability to lead. People tend to focus a lot of what exactly they could or couldn't do, but forget about things such as hope, inspiration, unity, etc. etc. that really can't be measured by numbers and charts.

We don't know yet, and we probably won't know until the first 100 days (if Obama wins), or 4 years later. But I'm optimistic. I haven't been optimistic since 2000.

Exactly. Strom Thrumond voted on a lot of bills. I doubt anyone outside the Klan would think he should be president. (I'm not faulting Trent Lott as I don't think he supported Thurmond due to his segregationist ideals. I think Lott was a victim of smearing and unfairly had words put in his mouth).
 

maestrowork

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Also, to have Republicans like Colin Powell reach across the party line to support Obama -- whether because they're disappointed in their own party or McCain, or they actually believe in Obama -- is an interesting indication that something is out there.

/ cue theme to the X-Files /
 

mscelina

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You mean like Lieberman reaching across to McCain to endorse him?

*sigh*

I don't know why I'm so ornery tonight. And yes, IG, I know this is your cue for your anti-Lieberman traitor diatribe.
 

maestrowork

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Lieberman is a tool -- and his deflection started LONG before Obama's rise. Can't really say the same about Colin Powell, though, but you may try. ;)

Look, you don't have to agree with me. I'm just saying what I think. I wasn't wrong about Bush. I wasn't wrong about Clinton. And I sure don't think I'm wrong about Obama or McCain. Ask me again in four years, okay?

;)
 
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mscelina

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Nope. Can't do it. Powell is an admirable man on many levels. That vote would be one I could cast without agonizing over it.

Endorsements rarely affect me one way or the other. For my vote, only my opinion counts.
 

Phoebe H

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There's just something intangible about Obama's ability to lead. People tend to focus a lot of what exactly they could or couldn't do, but forget about things such as hope, inspiration, unity, etc. etc. that really can't be measured by numbers and charts.

George Lakoff has been talking about this.

LAKOFF said:
... In addition, the most important concepts in the campaign that Obama is running is not "change," because "change" doesn't tell you anything. The most important concepts are the unconscious ones that he occasionally consciously talks about: empathy (caring about other people, having a government that cares about other people), responsibility (not just for yourself, but also social responsibility and community responsibility), and aspiration (for yourself, for your children, for your community and your country).

and on how he is running his campaign (this is talking about the primaries, but it works for the general too)

LAKOFF said:
Well, first of all, Ronald Reagan learned from all of this that people vote not on the basis of positions on issues and on programs but on five things. Namely, values, communication and connection, trust, authenticity (do you tell the truth), and identity (do you identify with the candidate). Obama understood that, and ran his campaign that way. Clinton ran on the basis of positions on issues, and bored people, basically. She didn't run on those five things. Now, Obama had the positions on issues and all the experts, but that's not how he ran his operation against Clinton.

(These come from this but I've been hearing him give this same analysis for a while now.)
 
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cethklein

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Wow, ceth--that's one hell of a tangent. I'm impressed. :)

It's a stupid tangent, I know. But no more stupid than the argument that McCain is somehow qualified solely because he's been in the senate a long time.
 

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On November 4th I'll hit the voting booth first thing and cast my vote for...Obama. Then, I'll get on with more important matters; like earning a living, reading the paper while eating lunch, paying bills and, of course, enjoying a cold beer while relaxing.

The world isn't gonna spin off its axis, no matter who's in charge by the end of that day. The only difference will be we won't be arguing about it that much here. And I'll get up the next morning to earn a living, read the paper while eating lunch...
 

robeiae

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On November 4th I'll hit the voting booth first thing and cast my vote for...Obama. Then, I'll get on with more important matters; like earning a living, reading the paper while eating lunch, paying bills and, of course, enjoying a cold beer while relaxing.

The world isn't gonna spin off its axis, no matter who's in charge by the end of that day. The only difference will be we won't be arguing about it that much here. And I'll get up the next morning to earn a living, read the paper while eating lunch...
Right.
 

astonwest

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People tend to focus a lot of what exactly they could or couldn't do, but forget about things such as hope, inspiration, unity, etc. etc. that really can't be measured by numbers and charts.
Ah, yes...the ability to make people feel good about themselves. :)
 

astonwest

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The world isn't gonna spin off its axis, no matter who's in charge by the end of that day. The only difference will be we won't be arguing about it that much here.
I doubt that...I just imagine it will shift from a "bash Bush/defend Bush" platform to a "bash Obama/defend Obama" or "bash McCain/defend McCain" platform...
 

aruna

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Call me naive, but I think there's something more important than actual numbers and bills signed and policies carried out. There's just something intangible about Obama's ability to lead. People tend to focus a lot of what exactly they could or couldn't do, but forget about things such as hope, inspiration, unity, etc. etc. that really can't be measured by numbers and charts.
That's right. It's the intangibles that count. The things you can't measure. And whether you agree with him or not, whether you like him or not, there's really no denying the change in millions of people's hearts and minds that he has brought about. You don't think that is a big thing, an importrant thing? In my book it is THE important thing. Not everyone can do that.
Any change in the externals of a society begins with a change of heart. It is THE key to real change.

Why humiliated? Seems kinda silly.

.
It's human nature. This has turned into a I'm right/you're wrong dichotomy, where many on the losing side (whichever side that is) will feel humiliated just because they have lost. That's the very word I've seen McCain supporters use among themselves on their blogs; I'm just repeating it. Might not work for everyone, but certainly for some.
 
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dmytryp

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So what you're saying is Neither Obama not McCain can unify? I'm asking because while you've iimplied you believe this, I've yet to hear you come out and say that you think McCain is divisive too . Just trying to get your stance here.
Yes, I am.
You know the difference between most conservatives and liberals here? I am yet to see one person here to idealize McCain. On the other hand Obama is idealized all the time as some "uniter/healer etc." He is none. He is a politician that used pretty harsh tactics in his campaign (whether himself or through his surrogates and supporters). He repeatedly chose small groups of people and fearmongering (like calling McCain :another Bush") to point fingers. There is nothing wrong with that. But this is divisive, and I see no reason of why it would change if he is elected.
 

mscelina

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Someone was projecting--like all of the McCain supporters in this forum will feel personally humiliated if their candidate doesn't win. It's a good example of the divisive 'us versus them' mentality that both candidates have engendered during the course of this campaign.

And dmytryp has a valid point in his post just above. No one (well, with the possible exception of a few) idolizes John McCain. The adulation that Obama receives is not only cloying, but it's setting him up for a colossal failure. Huge failure. Dare I say--a humiliating failure. Unless he can actually part the Red Sea (i.e. fix the economy and find a way to make our relationship with tyrants all sweetness and light) there are going to be a lot of disappointed people in this country after he's elected. It makes me wonder--which is better in the long run? The six months of hopes that fade and dwindle and die or lower expectations at the onset?

something to consider.
 

kuwisdelu

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You know the difference between most conservatives and liberals here? I am yet to see one person here to idealize McCain. On the other hand Obama is idealized all the time as some "uniter/healer etc." He is none. He is a politician that used pretty harsh tactics in his campaign (whether himself or through his surrogates and supporters). He repeatedly chose small groups of people and fearmongering (like calling McCain :another Bush") to point fingers. There is nothing wrong with that. But this is divisive, and I see no reason of why it would change if he is elected.

You have a good point. I like Obama, but I don't idealize him; I just think he's the better of the two and one of the better we've gotten in a while. But then, I don't hate McCain either. I strongly dislike some of his supporters and their actions, but I try not to let that reflect back on him.

However, is the Obama adulation a significant segment of the population, or are they just a very vocal minority?
 

dmytryp

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Someone was projecting--like all of the McCain supporters in this forum will feel personally humiliated if their candidate doesn't win. It's a good example of the divisive 'us versus them' mentality that both candidates have engendered during the course of this campaign.

And dmytryp has a valid point in his post just above. No one (well, with the possible exception of a few) idolizes John McCain. The adulation that Obama receives is not only cloying, but it's setting him up for a colossal failure. Huge failure. Dare I say--a humiliating failure. Unless he can actually part the Red Sea (i.e. fix the economy and find a way to make our relationship with tyrants all sweetness and light) there are going to be a lot of disappointed people in this country after he's elected. It makes me wonder--which is better in the long run? The six months of hopes that fade and dwindle and die or lower expectations at the onset?

something to consider.
I think that if Obama is elected, a lot of people are in for a rude awakening. I also think that this can bring a huge low for the Dems next time around.
 

dmytryp

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You have a good point. I like Obama, but I don't idealize him; I just think he's the better of the two and one of the better we've gotten in a while. But then, I don't hate McCain either. I strongly dislike some of his supporters and their actions, but I try not to let that reflect back on him.

However, is the Obama adulation a significant segment of the population, or are they just a very vocal minority?
Based on posts in this forum? I think the expectations from him are in stark contrast to his actual abilities as president.
 

dmytryp

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me said:
Yes, I am.
You know the difference between most conservatives and liberals here? I am yet to see one person here to idealize McCain. On the other hand Obama is idealized all the time as some "uniter/healer etc." He is none. He is a politician that used pretty harsh tactics in his campaign (whether himself or through his surrogates and supporters). He repeatedly chose small groups of people and fearmongering (like calling McCain :another Bush") to point fingers. There is nothing wrong with that. But this is divisive, and I see no reason of why it would change if he is elected.
Lol, I swear I didn't write it
This is stirring. As much as I tend to the cynical, I believe it is heartfelt. I would love to see a President Obama -- any president, for that matter -- put it into practice.
But this is not -- although it could have been -- the way that candidate Obama has run his campaign or the message he has run it on. I believe he sincerely would have preferred that it be different: more elevated and more honest, less beholden to party orthodoxy and less slashing toward opponents.
Yet Obama has run a rather standard Democratic campaign, largely obeisant to party constituencies and allergic to difficult choices. Run it brilliantly, yes, but not with much more than a passing hint of the new politics he envisions. Better angels, it seems, do not make the best campaign strategists.
Accepting his party's nomination in Denver, Obama decried the use of "stale tactics to scare voters." A few weeks later, he was airing ads warning that John McCain wanted to privatize Social Security and would slash seniors' benefits almost in half. You can't get much staler than that.
Certainly, John McCain did not shy away from the cheap shot or the divisive argument; the palling-around-with-terrorists, Obama-as-socialist themes were not the elevated campaign that he, too, pledged to run.
I don't blame Obama for responding in kind as much as I bristle at his simultaneous posture that he is above that sort of gutter politics. Even more, I question his assumption that the pressures that led him to such campaign tactics will somehow melt away after the election.