Does anyone else suck at critiquing others' work?

Little Ming said:

I think I have the opposite problem. I except people to know I'm full of shit, so even if my opinion turns out to be totally batshit-loony wrong, well, you should have known that.

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What? WHAT?

*goes to edit all the posts in which I agreed with you*

Dammit, and I was only copying off your paper because I thought it would make me sound smart. Gah! Now you tell me!

Edited to contribute to the thread: On a serious note, critiquing other people's WIPs is the single most valuable thing for my own writing I've ever done.

slhuang said:

Dammit, and I was only copying off your paper because I thought it would make me sound smart.

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Oh dear, that will never work. The only way to sound smart is to have an opinion so out of this world no one can agree with you because no one knows what the hell you're saying.

Little Ming said:

Oh dear, that will never work. The only way to sound smart is to have an opinion so out of this world no one can agree with you because no one knows what the hell you're saying.

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MACAQUE OBELISK. POOT POOT FRACAS BEETLE.

How's that for firm opinions

Little Ming said:

I think I have the opposite problem. I except people to know I'm full of shit, so even if my opinion turns out to be totally batshit-loony wrong, well, you should have known that.

(Also, I count on the fact that since this is a forum and there are many more knowledgeable people giving their opinions too, it will eventually balance out my batshit-loony-wrongness. )



I've noticed this too. Sometimes I wish you were just a little, tiny bit more firm in your opinions.

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Bolding mine. That's totally me, haha. And now I'm fearing there's more of us who feel batshitty than I originally assumed. (Aka, I'm no longer lonely...fweinds? )

I don't feel like I give good crits, at least not on manuscripts. Query crits I feel pretty confident about--that might be because I somehow manage to write decent queries. Manuscripts, however.... I know when something works for me and when it doesn't, but many times I have trouble articulating the whys/why nots. I've learned a ton about story structure and set up and subplots and blahblahblah, but when I beta for someone it all seems to go out the window and the best I can manage are replies like, "um, this is, um, like, good. me likes. um, um. yeah. *insert smiley face*"

I think part of it comes from not wanting to hurt feelings. Other times it happens because I'm reading manuscripts by writers who are much better than me. *shrugs* It's tough. Won't say it's not always beneficial for ME (it is), but I'm not so sure the people I'm reading for would find the feeling mutual.

buzhidao said:

MACAQUE OBELISK. POOT POOT FRACAS BEETLE.

How's that for firm opinions

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POOT POOT is not firm enough, and hardly original.

Kylabelle said:

POOT POOT is not firm enough, and hardly original.

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Look, other people may have written POOT POOT before, but no one has written it like I can. *haughty dress-twirly pivot into my quarters*

I don't know how I rate as a critiquer. I do tend to do it line by line, but sometimes I feel as if people don't feel that I'm very helpful. Or maybe they think I'm too harsh. I don't know.

I get thanks, but sometimes I think it's just the obligatory thanks. You know, for spending time doing it, not because they felt it was useful.

buzhidao said:

This is often a fear of mine--that people will take me too seriously.

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I fear the same thing. Like, I will always give my opinion because, hell, I read a lot, and my opinion isn't necessarily more right or more wrong than anyone else's. But shit, it's not like it's more right. It's just one opinion. It's a bit frightening when someone takes it as the Word of God. Since I can assure you, it's not. It's an opinion. Which I suspect is often shared by others, but sure as hell isn't shared all the time. (And I suspect is never shared by everyone. Unless it's something like the difference between its and it's, in which case, okay, if you're not agreeing with me, maybe there is a problem...)

Whether a writer takes your "bad" advice or doesn't take your "good" advice is up to the writer. And typically, if someone gives "bad advice", someone else will counter it and thus the author still has to make the final decision.

In other words - not your responsibility. Just be honest in your comments.

I don't know that I suck at critiquing, it just seems like everyone before me has said what I wanted to say, only better. Then I get sucked into a vortex of self-loathing and doubt about my own writing skills, or lack thereof. Then I read more stuff in the SYW forum, say 'fuck it' and make some comments.

Seriously, I could read other people's critiques all day long. It is truly an educational experience. Like having a hundred books on 'how to improve your writing' in one handy-dandy place. I plan to get better at critiquing. Luckily, like writing, it is a skill that can be learned and improved upon.

buzhidao said:

MACAQUE OBELISK. POOT POOT FRACAS BEETLE.

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That's it, I'm copying off of Bu's paper from now on.

Mutive said:

I fear the same thing. Like, I will always give my opinion because, hell, I read a lot, and my opinion isn't necessarily more right or more wrong than anyone else's. But shit, it's not like it's more right. It's just one opinion. It's a bit frightening when someone takes it as the Word of God. Since I can assure you, it's not. It's an opinion. Which I suspect is often shared by others, but sure as hell isn't shared all the time.

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Heh. I didn't realize this until this moment, but I'm actually egotistical enough that it's never occurred to me to question whether my opinion* is always right. (Wow. That's a boatload of ego right there, me.)

* eta: opinion as a critiquer, I mean. I doubt my opinion on all sorts of other things all the time . . .

(This is probably why when a book or movie does really well even though I hate it, I end up getting really invested in hating it. Even if I just think it's mediocre, the fact that so many people love something I think is mediocre makes me crazy. It feels like the Emperor's New Clothes and I'm the only one who can see that he's nekkid. I've never actually been involved in a hatedom -- I try to keep my crazy off the Internet -- but I do believe I understand the urge. )

Mind you, I'm not going to get all snitty if someone doesn't take my crits or something. But it's never occurred to me that my opinion as a critiquer might have the possibility to be, uh, actively detrimental instead of awesomely helpful. Hmm. Maybe I'd be a more considerate critter if I kept in mind that *gasp* I might possibly be wrong . . . *waddles over to corner, flops down, starts pondering*

(And I suspect is never shared by everyone. Unless it's something like the difference between its and it's, in which case, okay, if you're not agreeing with me, maybe there is a problem...)

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Yurrrr my friiiiiiend, Mutive. *squishes your flower petals really tightly*

Ken said:

... there's a lot on the line with critiquing though.
It's not merely a matter of trying your best.
If you mess up you're giving a writer advice that may lead them to mess up
an otherwise fine ms. Maybe that's okay with a caveat, like the title of this
thread. "I'm no good at critiquing, so plz DO NOT put much importance
on my critique. I may very well be wrong!" That might do, especially if others
are also offering critiques or serving as betas. I might be comfortable
with something like that myself if I was to be a beta or the like.

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I worry about that, too. I actually had that happen to me once--a writer immediately made a change that I'd suggested and it really didn't work as well.

But I think it's a two way street. Writers have to learn how to judge and apply the advice they get, and if I make a suggestion that I later decide wasn't very good, but the writer thinks it was a great idea, well, that's their prerogative. On the other hand, this is partly why I don't mind vague critiques sometimes. I think as a beginning critiquer, it can feel like you need to look hard for things you don't like, which might lead to some criticisms that are overly nitpicky. But if you just try to be honest, I think that usually works. And if someone is most comfortable offering a general comment like "I found this scene confusing," I'd rather have them do that than try to force something more detailed critique that they feel unsure about.

I think it depends on the feedback on whether it can be right or write. Things like grammar, punctuation, spelling, those can have a definitive right and wrong answer.

But opinions? I feel no matter who is saying it, it can't be right or wrong. It may not be the best solution for the story, but it holds its weight in gold nevertheless. You will always take something from it. Okay, so maybe if it didn't work for this particular story, you can tuck it away and maybe it might be useful on another story. Or, it gets your braining thinking on a tangent that eventually brings you to that "eureka" moment.

NOBODY knows everything, and EVERYBODY has something they can still learn. Everyone's got their strengths and weaknesses.

That's my two sense.

chompers said:

You will always take something from it. Okay, so maybe if it didn't work for this particular story, you can tuck it away and maybe it might be useful on another story. Or, it gets your braining thinking on a tangent that eventually brings you to that "eureka" moment.

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Yep, and sometimes what you take from the advice is that your gut is telling you the exact opposite. But you needed to hear the advice to fully realize how wrong it was for you.

That's why I'm usually not too heavily invested in the advice I give. Too often have others' pearls of wisdom fallen into my patented pearl crusher.

Karen Junker said:

And Quick, I wish you'd get a new pic -- you give me nightmares.

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:-(


I'm way better-lookin' as an indigo snake than in person.....

buzhidao said:

I think that, ultimately, everyone should cultivate a habit of trying to evaluate advice as well as they can using outside sources and internal evaluation before taking it to heart--and this doesn't just apply to writing. No advice should be seen as an imperative by either party, and I think this is the ideal way to go about life in general.

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Very well put.
I try but often forget to qualify my opinions with an 'imo' or 'shaker of salt' and so on as I sometimes have a fairly declarative way of putting things but really, it is up to the author to learn to discern good advice from bad for themselves, ultimately.

When I crit I do expect writers to mostly heed what everyone says about something that doesn't work, and not re-work something entirely based on a single comment or poster.

Christyp said:

I'm asked quite often to beta or critique for my fellow authors. The most I can usually do is tell someone if I'm confused, if something doesn't work or is too convenient, or if I really like a book.

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And that is a LOT, Christyp. Maybe you could just state that up front. That way you would know that the writer isn't expecting you to sniff out every missing comma or catch every factual glitch, like the impossibility of a trispacor jumping higher than 9 centimeters or finding a potato growing in dark age Britain.

Christyp said:

I am not as talented as so many on here who can catch very important, yet such small things. I can review a book I love, but I can't when I dislike a book.

Generally, unless the book is TERRIBLE (50 shades terrible) I usually can't pinpoint why I don't like a book, thus can't do a decent critique.

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Is it genre, maybe?

Christyp said:

Does anyone else have this problem? Do you get these same requests and stare numbly at the computer screen realizing you'll have to tell your friend you can't, or send a half a**ed review/critique?

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No, but I've read something so well written that there were no confusing parts, no grammar errors, nothing much for me to say. I kept thinking that I was cheating the author. The best I could do was point out a couple of boring parts.

quicklime said:

:-(


I'm way better-lookin' as an indigo snake than in person.....

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I agree.

*squees over cute snake*

Yeah, I suck at critiquing. It's only because I'm a sissy and I'm afraid to hurt someone's feelings. I admit it.

There are lots of people in this thread who are explaining very beautifully how they can't critique because they don't know how to put into words what they think, and I think they should think about that.

Heh.

I'm a tentative critiquer because I'm always struck by 'Who the hell am I to say anything?' So I try to find structural/grammatical flaws and stay away from stylistic snafus, because hey. One man's poison and all that.

DancingMaenid said:

I worry about that, too. I actually had that happen to me once--a writer immediately made a change that I'd suggested and it really didn't work as well.

But I think it's a two way street. Writers have to learn how to judge and apply the advice they get, and if I make a suggestion that I later decide wasn't very good, but the writer thinks it was a great idea, well, that's their prerogative. On the other hand, this is partly why I don't mind vague critiques sometimes. I think as a beginning critiquer, it can feel like you need to look hard for things you don't like, which might lead to some criticisms that are overly nitpicky. But if you just try to be honest, I think that usually works. And if someone is most comfortable offering a general comment like "I found this scene confusing," I'd rather have them do that than try to force something more detailed critique that they feel unsure about.

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... a general comment like that would be helpful like you say.
Even with that, though, I might hesitate. My reading comprehension
is the pits like I mentioned. So what is confusing to me may not actually be.
Sorta like a kid reading a book for an adult and being confused.
Huh, huh, huh, huh, huh ...
Stuff like that is why I don't beta or offer many critiques.
And it's not something I could improve with practice.
It's just how I am. Was always crummy with reading.
And here I am trying to be a writer!
G'luck with that, lol

I think I'm good/non-cruel but honest critiquer but I always request only one chapter from any project. So far, those "one chapter" critiques take up as much time as I can spare (generally, at least two hours and sometimes a multiple of that) and I don't feel as if I'm abandoning an author that expected me to trudge through all 175,000 words of her opus.

Of course, the last time I raised my hand in class, I received a first chapter that was 20,000 words long.

I don't critique writing. I did too much art critique back in the day and I have learned well enough that doing so turns me into a twitchy wreck--I don't enjoy the emotions involved at all, and since I can't imagine anything I say being so vital to a book's future as to be worth wringing myself out over, I just avoid it.

Mind you, I'm not entirely sure I agree it's not a different skillset--with art, anyway, being able to articulate "what is wrong with that? Something is wrong, but what?!" into "The ears are set way too high on the head and the line of the branch leads off the corner of the page and drags the eye with it" is NOT a common skill. There's often someone in the class who gives good critique and can't draw their way out of a paper sack--they have the eye and not the hand.

I've always thought of it like teaching--there are very good artists who cannot teach for crap. "How did you get that effect?" "Dunno. Poked it until it happened." "How do I choose a color scheme?" "Dunno--I use whatever's on the table. Err...and maybe some raw umber."

But writing and art are different disciplines, so there may be more crossover there. (Certainly they say the best way to learn something is to teach it!)

Little Anonymous Me said:

I'm a tentative critiquer because I'm always struck by 'Who the hell am I to say anything?' So I try to find structural/grammatical flaws and stay away from stylistic snafus, because hey. One man's poison and all that.

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You're a reader and what you say now is far kinder and easier to fix then when it gets out in the published real world.

As others have said: your opinions matter because:

1) You may make a chorus the writer should listen to (ie: If everyone in the group says the same thing you should take a hard look at that, if only one person does then don't worry about it unless it rings true to you).

2) What you see and say you see others will too. Just like the internet law that says if you think of it there is already porn for it, if you think of it so will other readers.

3) You may see something that the writer, having slaved over the stupid book for millions of words, has completely missed.

Who are you? A reader. Who should a writer listen to other than readers? And really, wouldn't you rather hear the bad before it's published and you're screwed?