English-only, please.

RichardGarfinkle

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The socialization of transportation and other infrastructure costs is also responsible for creating a society that uses far more energy than it would have had factory farms and mass producers of widely-distributed disposable goods had to compete with local farms and locally-produced repairable goods by recognizing the full costs of transportation. Much of today's energy crisis can be laid directly at the feet of government for encouraging wasteful practices to keep the mass-production factories humming.

That's the only widely-accepted definition I'm aware of.

I could argue this specific point, or analogize, but I'd rather ask a more general question. Is there any other human endeavor that you hold to the same standard as you do the government?

You seem to be objecting that a process produces side effects that are undesirable. Under those circumstances the question is can the advantages of the process be salvaged while correcting the side effects, rather than saying aha the process should not have been tried in the first place.
 

Katie Elle

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I'm going to ignore the libertarian derail and go back to the original topic.

All the stuff about offering services in different languages seems to fall into the paradigm of it being an inconvenience to English speakers and a cost to cater to those who don't speak native English. As someone in a government office that has to explain complicated technical rules and procedures to people, it's the opposite. It's about being efficient and getting people the information they need in a fast manner. It's also not about normal conversational English, it's about technical and complex language--in our case zoning and permit rules and variance hearing procedures.

Or more simply put: If you are on hold at the county offices to get a building permit would you rather sit on hold for a half hour while I try to explain to someone who's first language was Spanish minimum lot size, frontal setbacks, frontage, maximum site coverage and the conditions under which you can violate one of the limits by right, the conditions under which you need to file for an automatic waiver, or when you need to file for a hearing for a variance and what documentation will be required for that waiver or hearing. Or would you rather they get shunted to someone who speaks Spanish and can explain it in five minutes.

And do you want your tax money spent for me to waste an extra half hour of staff time trying to explain this?
 

Xelebes

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Are you suggesting, good sir, that inflation is a measure of the amount of currency devaluation?

And are you shocked that keeping currency on hand is not a good investment? That merely socking away cash deprives you of opportunity?
 

Diana Hignutt

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And are you shocked that keeping currency on hand is not a good investment? That merely socking away cash deprives you of opportunity?

Who me?

I think any and all sorts of financial, futures, real estate, or commodity speculation is evil, so maybe, you shouldn't ask me. It is, what my Objectivist friends, would call looting.
 

Xelebes

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Who me?

I think any and all sorts of financial, futures, real estate, or commodity speculation is evil, so maybe, you shouldn't ask me. It is, what my Objectivist friends, would call looting.

Who said anything about speculation? I'm saying you either spend you money on quick assets that you need or fast assets for your livelihood, rather than hoarding money which you can't use to live.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Who said anything about speculation? I'm saying you either spend you money on quick assets that you need or fast assets for your livelihood, rather than hoarding money which you can't use to live.

Forgive my misunderstanding.
 

AncientEagle

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ETA: So, rather than giving the poor money, shouldn't we try to create jobs? And doesn't that mean, trying to create an environment where creating a business - coffee houses, book stores, restaurants, hair saloons, computer part stores, you name it - is easier, more streamlined, and so on?

Hey, yeah, great idea. Can we do it tomorrow?
 

benbradley

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Okay, let me see if I can spell it out:
You can call it compassion or you can call it what you will. You can even say the government is using guns to force this "compassion," although I haven't seen that. But until we have enough compassionate people to keep the poor afloat, it's in the best interests of the country as a whole for the government to step in. I know this frosts the souls of the followers of Ayn Rand, of course.
Government (specifically the US Federal Government) spends substantial amounts of money for services for poor people. This money comes from somewhere, and it doesn't all come from "generated" sources ("quantitative easing" or the government printing money) or borrowing (by offering treasury notes/bills/bonds), but a lot of this money is raised through TAXES. I posted an infamous case of what happens when one evades paying TAXES:
Perhaps you've heard of Leona Helmsley.
You get arrested by people with guns, you get tried in a courtroom protected by people with guns, and you get held in a prison by people armed with guns to keep you there.
 

Yorkist

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We can just take this whole discussion down to this one statement. If you believe that the growth in the value of an asset is the same thing as inflation, we're so far apart we have nothing to discuss.

My "beliefs" are just economics. The very first sentence of the Wikipedia article on inflation reads as follows:

In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1]
But you're right. If you don't believe in the general principles of economics, we are so far apart that we have nothing to discuss.

Are you suggesting, good sir, that inflation is a measure of the amount of currency devaluation?

This is the same exact thing as the measure of the rise in prices in general goods and services. Currency's value cannot decrease without a corresponding increase in the prices of goods and services.
 

Yorkist

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Yes, because you're comparing service-based industry with a product-based industry. But percentage wise, payroll is pretty consistent across service businesses. I used the percentages I typically see in a service-based business, like teaching.

Not my field and you're totally right so far as I can tell. I just looked up a random school district CAFR, and "instruction" was 62% of expenditures. They're divided by activity instead of by type, though, so there's not a "payroll" section, but 62% was going to "operations" if you will. Only about 3% was going to admin, and the rest was typical expenses.

The CAFR doesn't include a line item budget, though, so I can't tell much from it. I will investigate further, I know some people who work on school district audits.

And now we're back to the efficiency argument (Hey! I remember you! lol) And you've previously convinced me that government CAN be efficient (whereas I think that the free-market has that advantage).
Yay! Yeah, I need to get an avatar so people remember me, but eh, effort. I wonder how long it'll be before we drive everyone else out of the thread with our accounting talk again...

I just stared at my computer for like, 30 minutes just now. I'm torn. First off, I don't see anything "intentional" about it. Kids are expensive. People have them anyway. I love kids. I think kids are awesome. But there are responsibilities, economic and otherwise, that have nothing to do with government. But there's a segment of the population that feels entitled to government benefits BECAUSE they have kids. While I'm not opposed to helping people who need help, there's also that whole responsiblity thing. In a perfect world, you wouldn't have kids until you're completely responsible. Would society crumble? Would the population die out? I don't think so. Would social security crumble? Probably. But since my scenario is unlikely, it's moot.
Yeah, I just see red when people start talking about moving public goods for children (who are the most vulnerable members of our society and don't even get to vote), which have long been considered public goods, to private goods. Particularly when we're simultaneously increasing entitlements for rich people and a gigantic older population with a hell of a lot more economic and political capital than children, certainly, or the parents of those children. And as for the parents of children, they have to have kids when they're young and (relatively) poor, due to how our economy works and biological necessity, unfortunately.

And I don't buy that teachers get paid poop because they work for government. Professors, for example, don't get paid poop, unless they work in humanities departments. When you're talking about why teachers get paid so little - as with any other economics question - the answer is rarely simple. It's never something that can be reduced to a political soundbyte.

I talked to my son (8th grade) last night, asked him about his teachers and mentioned that "they don't make enough money" and Zach said immediately: "Oh my God, Mom. You know what, I only have one teacher that doesn't say that to the class." And I was like, "What?" And he said, "All my teachers are always like, 'They don't pay me enough for this job.'" And these are teachers of AP students. They don't want better students. They want more money.
Don't get me wrong, teachers want to get paid more money! But sometimes there is a bit of a tradeoff between more money and a better working environment. That's all I'm saying. Improving working environments will also improve the situation of teachers.
 

Chrissy

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Government (specifically the US Federal Government) spends substantial amounts of money for services for poor people. This money comes from somewhere, and it doesn't all come from "generated" sources ("quantitative easing" or the government printing money) or borrowing (by offering treasury notes/bills/bonds), but a lot of this money is raised through TAXES. I posted an infamous case of what happens when one evades paying TAXES:

You get arrested by people with guns, you get tried in a courtroom protected by people with guns, and you get held in a prison by people armed with guns to keep you there.

Leona, the Queen of Mean. That heartless woman.
 

Chrissy

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I just looked up a random school district CAFR, and "instruction" was 62% of expenditures. They're divided by activity instead of by type, though, so there's not a "payroll" section, but 62% was going to "operations" if you will. Only about 3% was going to admin, and the rest was typical expenses.

So, 62% of $160,000 (the Kindergarten example of 20 kids @ $8,000)... That's $99,200 for instruction. How does the main teacher end up with, what, only like, $25,000? Or is it closer to $30,000? Still.

I get that there are other salaries, other operational expenses, but most of those costs are shared among the main classes/grades. So... I'm just still baffled at the cost per student versus what the teacher comes up with.

Yay! Yeah, I need to get an avatar so people remember me, but eh, effort. I wonder how long it'll be before we drive everyone else out of the thread with our accounting talk again...

I remembered you anyway, just by your name. :)

(This thread will die soon... but there are worse things.... like getting locked)

Yeah, I just see red when people start talking about moving public goods for children (who are the most vulnerable members of our society and don't even get to vote), which have long been considered public goods, to private goods. Particularly when we're simultaneously increasing entitlements for rich people and a gigantic older population with a hell of a lot more economic and political capital than children, certainly, or the parents of those children. And as for the parents of children, they have to have kids when they're young and (relatively) poor, due to how our economy works and biological necessity, unfortunately.

Is this another way of saying young, horny and stupid? Just kiddin.

I agree that children are valuable and precious and we have a responsibility to them. Absolutely.

And I don't buy that teachers get paid poop because they work for government. Professors, for example, don't get paid poop, unless they work in humanities departments. When you're talking about why teachers get paid so little - as with any other economics question - the answer is rarely simple. It's never something that can be reduced to a political soundbyte.

Wait... hold on. Professors? As in, of colleges? Where tuition is collected? Mightn't that have something to do with it? Now we're getting somewhere.... Woot! :)
 

Don

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Yorkist, have you ever noticed that economic charts generally express values in "constant dollars" tied to some particular year? That's because values priced in monetary units, and that don't take into account inflation are inaccurately presented as growing faster than they really are. That's why "constant dollars" are used to negate the impact of inflation on real values.

So what causes price inflation, as opposed to growth in the value of an asset?

You should have read the next two sentences at Wikipedia -- although I don't really recommend Wikipedia as a great source of economic knowledge.
When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services. Consequently, inflation also reflects an erosion in the purchasing power of money – a loss of real value in the internal medium of exchange and unit of account in the economy.
Also note that Wikipedia's first sentence speaks of the "general price level," not a change in the value of one product in relation to another.

Thus "the growth in the value of an asset is the same thing as inflation" is a fundamentally false statement. Indeed, inflation and the growth in the value of an asset are fundamentally different things. They are two separate causes for the monetary price of an asset increasing over time, one caused by the debasement of the money supply, the other indicative of any real increase in value of the asset measured in purchasing power in constant dollars.

Indeed, as any historic pricing chart illustrates by the use of "constant dollars", the impact of inflation must be subtracted from the increase in the monetary value of the asset over time to determine if the asset has increased in value or not. If the value of an asset remains constant in "constant dollars" it has not increased in value over that time period. It has only increased in monetary price, but has the same value in terms of purchasing power as it had before. If price inflation is running 10%, a bank account earning 5% interest is increasing in monetary units, but decreasing in value relative to all other products -- its purchasing power.

Thus the use of "constant dollars" in any discussion of the value of assets over a period of time... and the failure of the statement "the growth in the value of an asset is the same thing as inflation."
 

Xelebes

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Yorkist, have you ever noticed that economic charts generally express values in "constant dollars" tied to some particular year? That's because values priced in monetary units, and that don't take into account inflation are inaccurately presented as growing faster than they really are. That's why "constant dollars" are used to negate the impact of inflation on real values.

How badly do you want to get into accounting theory and how deep?

So what causes price inflation, as opposed to growth in the value of an asset?

A surplus in the adjustments of volumes of M0, M1, M2 and M3 for the creation of various assets outmatching the consumption and write-off of assets. A deficit is the opposite. On the individual level, predictable inflation allows for greater chance of meeting budgets while predictable deflation reduces the chance of meeting budgets. A little bit of inflation is okay, as it is quite predictable. High inflation, what you have been burnt with in the 70s and is the source of your bemoaning, is less predictable because the volatility impacts budget-making.
 

Chrissy

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How badly do you want to get into accounting theory and how deep?

A surplus in the adjustments of volumes of M0, M1, M2 and M3 for the creation of various assets outmatching the consumption and write-off of assets. A deficit is the opposite. On the individual level, predictable inflation allows for greater chance of meeting budgets while predictable deflation reduces the chance of meeting budgets. A little bit of inflation is okay, as it is quite predictable. High inflation, what you have been burnt with in the 70s and is the source of your bemoaning, is less predictable because the volatility impacts budget-making.

And we've come full circle, folks, back to the topic of this thread.
 

AncientEagle

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Okay, let me see if I can spell it out:

Government (specifically the US Federal Government) spends substantial amounts of money for services for poor people. This money comes from somewhere, and it doesn't all come from "generated" sources ("quantitative easing" or the government printing money) or borrowing (by offering treasury notes/bills/bonds), but a lot of this money is raised through TAXES. I posted an infamous case of what happens when one evades paying TAXES:

You get arrested by people with guns, you get tried in a courtroom protected by people with guns, and you get held in a prison by people armed with guns to keep you there.

Well, yeah, I understood that, but it seemed such a stretch to make the point that I thought there must be something I was missing.
 

raburrell

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Wait... hold on. Professors? As in, of colleges? Where tuition is collected? Mightn't that have something to do with it? Now we're getting somewhere.... Woot! :)
FWIW, Assistant professors average out around $63k/yr (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos066.htm#earnings). Not much when you think of how many years of said professor's life have gone into earning the degree required to teach, lost wages/retirement savings over the years, etc.
 
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Chrissy

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FWIW, Assistant professors average out around $63k/yr (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos066.htm#earnings). Not much when you think of how many years of said professor's life have gone into earning the degree required to teach, lost wages/retirement savings over the years, etc.

I wonder how many teachers of K-12 would be happy with $63k a year?

I thought this was interesting, too--from the link:
Many faculty members have significant earnings from consulting, teaching additional courses, research, writing for publication, or other employment, in addition to their base salary. Many college and university faculty enjoy unique benefits, including access to campus facilities, tuition waivers for dependents, housing and travel allowances, and paid leave for sabbaticals.
Personally, I'm thinking it's time to try out my assistant professor skills. :D
 

raburrell

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Don't forget, you're talking 5-7 years or more beyond a Bachelor's degree to get to that position. During that time, if you're lucky, you're making 15k a year on a stipend, and if you're not, you're paying a university 20-30k or more for the privilege.

I had an adjunct appointment for a couple of years - trust me, there was none of that stuff. Assistant/Associate professors work their asses off, and many of the more prestigious universities have adopted a quiet policy of denying tenure to keep salaries low. So basically you find yourself starting over in your early thirties (which can be especially devastating for women who'd been holding off on having families while they tried for tenure) That's if you can even find a position in the first place. A university gig is nice if you can get it, but they're the proverbial hen's teeth in some fields.

eta: a 63k K-12 salary in my state isn't all that rare. I don't have the numbers in front of me though. is actually below average for most districts. http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx
The state average is $68k.
 

Chrissy

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Don't forget, you're talking 5-7 years or more beyond a Bachelor's degree to get to that position. During that time, if you're lucky, you're making 15k a year on a stipend, and if you're not, you're paying a university 20-30k or more for the privilege.

Woah, 5-7 years? I though a Masters was 2 extra years. Doctorate 4 extra. I guess you're talking part-time while working. Makes more sense. And yes, making more money requires more education, but isn't that true in all professions? Anyhoo. Point taken.

I had an adjunct appointment for a couple of years - trust me, there was none of that stuff. Assistant/Associate professors work their asses off, and many of the more prestigious universities have adopted a quiet policy of denying tenure to keep salaries low. So basically you find yourself starting over in your early thirties (which can be especially devastating for women who'd been holding off on having families while they tried for tenure) That's if you can even find a position in the first place. A university gig is nice if you can get it, but they're the proverbial hen's teeth in some fields.

That sucks, the denying tenure.

eta: a 63k K-12 salary in my state isn't all that rare. I don't have the numbers in front of me though. is actually below average for most districts. http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/teachersalaries.aspx
The state average is $68k.

I think there's a major cost of living adjustment then. I'm in South Florida, and $68k is completely unheard of for grade school teachers. $68k is downright wealthy, comparatively speaking.
 

raburrell

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Woah, 5-7 years? I though a Masters was 2 extra years. Doctorate 4 extra. I guess you're talking part-time while working. Makes more sense. And yes, making more money requires more education, but isn't that true in all professions? Anyhoo. Point taken.
University teaching generally requires a doctorate (if not a post-doc). Mine took five beyond my undergrad, and that was going full time. Where I went, it's usually at least that (probably 3 more years if you already have a Masters degree). I turned down a spot at Johns Hopkins because the average there was 7. One guy I talked to had been there 11 and had no hope of ever finishing at that point. Grad students are slave labor for professors, so it's in their interest to drag things out as long as possible. I was really lucky though (and in a STEM field), so grad school didn't cost me a dime.
 

Chrissy

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University teaching generally requires a doctorate (if not a post-doc). Mine took five beyond my undergrad, and that was going full time. Where I went, it's usually at least that (probably 3 more years if you already have a Masters degree). I turned down a spot at Johns Hopkins because the average there was 7. One guy I talked to had been there 11 and had no hope of ever finishing at that point. Grad students are slave labor for professors, so it's in their interest to drag things out as long as possible. I was really lucky though (and in a STEM field), so grad school didn't cost me a dime.

Wow, that's amazing. I had no idea, honestly. With that much education required, professors should be freakin' millionaires. Seriously.

I really have to ponder this. Thanks for all the info! I'm gonna go philosophize in my head for a while. :)
 

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Yorkist, have you ever noticed that economic charts generally express values in "constant dollars" tied to some particular year? That's because values priced in monetary units, and that don't take into account inflation are inaccurately presented as growing faster than they really are. That's why "constant dollars" are used to negate the impact of inflation on real values.

So what causes price inflation, as opposed to growth in the value of an asset?

You should have read the next two sentences at Wikipedia -- although I don't really recommend Wikipedia as a great source of economic knowledge.

Also note that Wikipedia's first sentence speaks of the "general price level," not a change in the value of one product in relation to another.

Thus "the growth in the value of an asset is the same thing as inflation" is a fundamentally false statement. Indeed, inflation and the growth in the value of an asset are fundamentally different things. They are two separate causes for the monetary price of an asset increasing over time, one caused by the debasement of the money supply, the other indicative of any real increase in value of the asset measured in purchasing power in constant dollars.

Indeed, as any historic pricing chart illustrates by the use of "constant dollars", the impact of inflation must be subtracted from the increase in the monetary value of the asset over time to determine if the asset has increased in value or not. If the value of an asset remains constant in "constant dollars" it has not increased in value over that time period. It has only increased in monetary price, but has the same value in terms of purchasing power as it had before. If price inflation is running 10%, a bank account earning 5% interest is increasing in monetary units, but decreasing in value relative to all other products -- its purchasing power.

Thus the use of "constant dollars" in any discussion of the value of assets over a period of time... and the failure of the statement "the growth in the value of an asset is the same thing as inflation."

When one "asset" (I've been leaving it alone, but we're rather misusing the term "asset" here) increases in price, its price inflates. It's inflation with a little "i" if you will. The lump sum, or average, of all of those price increases and decreases is the overall index of price inflation, or big I. So the argument in this article is that when you're investing in a wide variety of "assets," if you will, you're betting on inflation. In reality, you're hoping that the prices of your asset collection will rise faster than the aggregate of all "assets," but you're betting that they'll at least rise as much as inflation. It's a little more complex than that, but that's the gist of it.

I don't have a dog in this fight. It's hard to get polemical about something as complex as economics that you know a little something about, but not doctoral-level knowledge. Hell, determining the value of assets for financial statement purposes is something that I've had to think about on an almost-daily basis for several years now, and I can't even form a strong opinion about historical cost versus fair market value, except that historical cost means I don't have to think as hard and thus I like it better. The only opinion I have about social security is my "not wanting to see elderly people and orphans eating cat food under bridges" opinion. The only strong opinion I have about this article in this thread is that the argument isn't being properly understood.

And I don't appreciate the snottiness. I have an epically snarky and rude reply that I'm going to have to give myself a cookie for later today for not using, and I'm not using it because I try to be a good person and more than that, I want to maintain my level of goodwill within this forum. My broad (though very limited and, I'm sure, with some flaws) understanding of economics comes from the handful of classes - micro, macro, regression, blahblahblah - I had to take for my degree program. And made A's in, FWIW. I also don't appreciate the insult to Wikipedia, which I find one of the most awesome things ever. I remember the encyclopedia set we had when I was a kid in the mid-90's. It still had Czechoslovakia on its map of eastern Europe and we were missing the "F" volume, so if you wanted to look up, say, Franz Ferdinand you were SOL, and that totally sucked, and not only did those encyclopedias not practically instantly update themselves with new information but they were also incredibly limited in the amount of information they contained, and anyone half as nerdy as me should be thanking Jesus for timing their birth in the era of Wikipedia during their nightly prayers. I'm not even being irreverent, I rank Wikipedia slightly below "penicillin" and "the printing press" in technology that improves my personal existence.

Anyway. More from the wikipedia entry on inflation:

The term "inflation" originally referred to increases in the amount of money in circulation, and some economists still use the word in this way. However, most economists today use the term "inflation" to refer to a rise in the price level. An increase in the money supply may be called monetary inflation, to distinguish it from rising prices, which may also for clarity be called 'price inflation'.[23] Economists generally agree that in the long run, inflation is caused by increases in the money supply. However, in the short and medium term, inflation is largely dependent on supply and demand pressures in the economy.[24]
Other economic concepts related to inflation include: deflation – a fall in the general price level; disinflation – a decrease in the rate of inflation; hyperinflation – an out-of-control inflationary spiral; stagflation – a combination of inflation, slow economic growth and high unemployment; and reflation – an attempt to raise the general level of prices to counteract deflationary pressures.
Since there are many possible measures of the price level, there are many possible measures of price inflation. Most frequently, the term "inflation" refers to a rise in a broad price index representing the overall price level for goods and services in the economy. The Consumer Price Index (CPI), the Personal Consumption Expenditures Price Index (PCEPI) and the GDP deflator are some examples of broad price indices. However, "inflation" may also be used to describe a rising price level within a narrower set of assets, goods or services within the economy, such as commodities (including food, fuel, metals), financial assets (such as stocks, bonds and real estate), services (such as entertainment and health care), or labor. The Reuters-CRB Index (CCI), the Producer Price Index, and Employment Cost Index (ECI) are examples of narrow price indices used to measure price inflation in particular sectors of the economy. Core inflation is a measure of inflation for a subset of consumer prices that excludes food and energy prices, which rise and fall more than other prices in the short term. The Federal Reserve Board pays particular attention to the core inflation rate to get a better estimate of long-term future inflation trends overall.[25]
So, 62% of $160,000 (the Kindergarten example of 20 kids @ $8,000)... That's $99,200 for instruction. How does the main teacher end up with, what, only like, $25,000? Or is it closer to $30,000? Still.

Don't forget that the amount on a paycheck one receives and the amount of money that an employer spends on that employee are wildly different. Between the employer portion of health insurance premiums (my husband's is $14,000 a year, for instance), pension contributions, 401k/457b/whatever matching, payroll taxes, workman's comp insurance (?), etc. etc., the salary of a government employee doesn't represent much more than half of what that employee actually costs the organization.

I wonder how many teachers of K-12 would be happy with $63k a year?

I thought this was interesting, too--from the link:

Personally, I'm thinking it's time to try out my assistant professor skills. :D

You're really going to be wanting to try those skills out once I tell you how much accounting professors make, which is, ahem, double that.

The salaries of the professoriate vary widely. You can have an accounting professor making $150k at an R1 and a history professor at a teaching university that qualifies for food stamps, in the same geographic region of the U.S. Just for the record, when I was making that point about professor's salaries, I was not denigrating the profession or saying they didn't deserve their salaries (shit, I have a few family members that are professors), just that government employee doesn't automatically mean poor. Another example - district attorneys in the rural dirty south make $100k or so. (Public defenders, however, make something like $30k and don't qualify for benefits in some states. Pretty effed up, no?)

Also, Chrissy, re: the biological imperative. What I meant was that you have a limited amount of time to have children. The reproductive drive bit wasn't my argument, LOL. Just that the way our economic structure works, the years that it's easy for (most) people to have kids are the same years that they're (usually) poor.

ETA: And also for the record, for anyone who may be thinking about grad school, you should never have to pay for a doctoral program. If the department doesn't have the resources to fund its graduate students, then it's not a good department. If they're paying for other students but not you, then they don't think you're worth investing in, and that bodes ill for how well you'll get along within that particular department at that particular university. Apply widely and accept the best funding package. That is my advice for potential doctoral students (*cough*, Chrissy) that don't know the rules of the road. The relationship is not unlike that of a writer and literary agent, actually.
 
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