[YADS] Leafless (formerly Screwpulp, Inc.)

Does anyone at The Seed Hatchery have any experience with books or the publishing industry?

evilrooster said:

So are you a publisher or a vendor? It almost sounds to me like you're a eBook vendor, looking to compete with programs like Amazon's KDP.

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We are a vendor. We will provide tools for authors to market sell their work. We will not be part of their copyright.

evilrooster said:

You say you don't have a publishing background. Do you have a bookselling background? eCommerce? Web development? How many people are in your company? What's the range of experience? Why have you chosen this business?

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I have a background in television and radio though I have spent the last 10 years in IT management. I have a developer with over 20 years experience in ecommerce development. Our design partner has 7 years experience.

None of the founding team at Smashwords had a background in publishing.

evilrooster said:

Do you think that you've learned the right lessons about when to listen to your business mentors and when to your industry gurus?

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I'm definitely learning about that now. There will be no cold contacts in the future.

evilrooster said:

How will you ensure the quality of the books you present, so that your users don't decide you're a slush outlet? Not all self-published works are unconsidered trifles, ready to be snapped up; some are not ready for the attention. Who will do the work of filtering those out?

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All books will have a rating before the first sale. We hope that this will give clear indications to buyers about the quality of the content.

evilrooster said:

And how will you ensure that the reviews are fair and honest, neither the gushings of the author's nearest and dearest nor the casual cruelty of trolls?

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We will have a rating system for the reviewers as well. The best reviewer will show at the top.

evilrooster said:

I presume you have break-even scenarios, either for the volume of low-price books or the average price of more popular works. How have you evaluated the likelihood of those scenarios? What real-world sources have you used to build your models? How much are you expecting authors to publicize their works, and how will you check/enforce that expectation?

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We have made educated assumptions based on marketing trends but numbers in the self-publishing world are lacking because only those with ISBNs are tracked.

evilrooster said:

How, if at all, are you dealing with issues around DRM and regional licensing? Are you assuming that all of your books are to be available everywhere on all platforms?

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Users hate DRM. We plan to watermark downloaded books with the buyers account information to help prevent piracy.

evilrooster said:

How close are you to launch?

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We will soft launch in a couple of weeks. We will then be able to test many of your hypothesis. We are an agile company and will adjust our methods to what works best for readers and authors.

James D. Macdonald said:

Does anyone at The Seed Hatchery have any experience with books or the publishing industry?

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Several have published but don't have direct experience of the industry. We are still working on finding mentors with that experience.

Okay, two questions. 1) Should you change the name to take the "publishing" away if you're a vendor and not a publisher? Do the authors working with you understand the distinction?

2) You say books will be rated before they go out. Fairly rated? Does this mean that if an author publishes a book through you that is of very poor quality that you will give it a low rating?

I ask because I'm thinking of all the crazy drama that goes on over readers leaving low reviews. If all books are reviewed by the company and some receive low stars, I have a feeling some authors would have a problem with that. Of course, placating the authors and giving everyone high ratings wouldn't be ethical, either. I'm just wondering how you plan to deal with this issue.

1) Do you have guidelines and selection criteria? (That is, do authors submit works, and is it possible for some works to be rejected?)

2) Do you engage in editing on any level, from developmental editing to line editing to copyediting? Proofreading? Fact checking?

From what I can see (assuming I get your model), you have two major risks:

1. You'll drown in slush. The signal:noise ratio in self-published books is not good, and many of them never sell more than a few copies.. If you're not filtering the books, you're going to get a lot of books that garner one or two tepid reviews, but never get enough mentions to move through to paid sales. But they'll still be sitting on your servers and taking up your bandwidth. How are you going to boost your ratio of money-makers to the point where you're profitable if you're not doing any pre-filtering?

2. You'll get gamed, called on being gamed, and blown up in the subsequent firestorm. The reviewing culture in the market you're trying to enter is a mess: authors use sockpuppets to praise their own work or get friends and family to post glowing reviews; drivebys leave thoughtlessly nasty reviews; vicious retaliation ensues. Amazon puts a lot of effort into trying to ensure that reviews are genuine and useful. But there are still messy allegations and nasty drama about what goes on there, all the way down to doxxing and death threats. And if you've done any basic research at all, I won't have to tell you about the thrashes that have arisen around Goodreads.

Are you prepared for that kind of hideous negative publicity? Do you have the toolset to tamp down this kind of drama when it occurs? Do you have the people skills to do it, and the time to apply them?

Also, you talk about watermarking. Are you using an existing scheme, or rolling your own? Do authors apply it themselves and send you watermarked files, or do you apply it to the finished eBooks after they're delivered to you?

I guess Richard isn't going to address my concerns, so I'll just reiterate that your model is fatally flawed because you want editors to push your name to those we reject, and you want to send writers to editors in order to save us from ourselves.

You admit to having zero publishing experience, so there is no way you are in a position to determine a marketable story. This means that you'd be adding to an editor's job by sending along not-ready-for-primetime stories. Secondly, authors would be infuriated to know and editor had passed their name along to you. That is spamming of the worst kind. If you're going to reinvent the wheel (as so many before you have attempted), then isn't it logical to actually be experienced in the industry?

priceless1 said:

I guess Richard isn't going to address my concerns, so I'll just reiterate that your model is fatally flawed because you want editors to push your name to those we reject, and you want to send writers to editors in order to save us from ourselves.

You admit to having zero publishing experience, so there is no way you are in a position to determine a marketable story. This means that you'd be adding to an editor's job by sending along not-ready-for-primetime stories. Secondly, authors would be infuriated to know and editor had passed their name along to you. That is spamming of the worst kind. If you're going to reinvent the wheel (as so many before you have attempted), then isn't it logical to actually be experienced in the industry?

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That marketing test was obviously flawed. We will not be asking editors or agents to push their rejections towards us. We are listening to everything from everyone in this forum and find all of the information invaluable. We are completely done with the spammy nature of cold emails.

Again Smashwords is hugely successful and had no publishing experience on their founding team. That said we are engaging those with publishing experience to join our board of advisers as mentors.

jazzcat007 said:

Again Smashwords is hugely successful and had no publishing experience on their founding team.

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That makes them the exception that proves the rule...not an indication of the way to bet.

There are also significant differences that I can see between this approach and Smashwords. Most of which have already been mentioned in this thread.

Smashwords is an aggregator and distributor, not a publisher.

While Smashwords itself may be successful, the typical Smashwords book sees few if any sales. How many are best-sellers? How many win awards? How many of their authors are well-known for their writing?

In the interests of full disclosure I myself am a "Smashwords author" in that I have released some of my backlist titles through their system. Compared with commercial publication my income through that stream is laughable.

Turning to Screwpulp:

Will your books only be available through your own site, or will they also be available through B&N, Amazon, iTunes, All Romance ebooks, and other sites?

Will your books have ISBNs? If so, who owns those ISBNs?

James D. Macdonald said:

Smashwords is an aggregator and distributor, not a publisher.

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I don't see us as a publisher either. More a of a marketplace for authors who want to self-publish.

James D. Macdonald said:

While Smashwords itself may be successful, the typical Smashwords book sees few if any sales. How many are best-sellers? How many win awards? How many of their authors are well-known for their writing?

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Probably not many. We don't have any delusions that most books will be successful. Our hope is that the vetting process will give potential buyers clear indications of which are good versus bad.

James D. Macdonald said:

In the interests of full disclosure I myself am a "Smashwords author" in that I have released some of my backlist titles through their system. Compared with commercial publication my income through that stream is laughable.

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Are those books selling better in other venues?

James D. Macdonald said:

Turning to Screwpulp:

Will your books only be available through your own site, or will they also be available through B&N, Amazon, iTunes, All Romance ebooks, and other sites?

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At first only through our site. We would like to help authors make connections to other distribution channels in the future but, from what we've learned in this forum, I think we'll need to prove our worth before approaching those connections.

James D. Macdonald said:

Will your books have ISBNs? If so, who owns those ISBNs?

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We have been kicking around the idea of giving ISBN's after the first sale. If we buy them in bulk they can be quite cheap. We are still researching this possibility, but if we do it we would want them to be owned by the author.

I would disagree with seeking distribution later. That is where the value is. That is where the sales are. Without it, what do you offer?

Unless I have missed something you don't publish and you don't distribute... You start to look YADS?

jazzcat007 said:

I don't see us as a publisher either. More a of a marketplace for authors who want to self-publish.

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This needs explanation because self publishing means that the author is the publisher and assumes all costs of production, distribution, and sales. They purchase their own ISBNs, and they are identified as being the publisher. If you want to be a Smashwords, then I have to ask why.

We have been kicking around the idea of giving ISBN's after the first sale. If we buy them in bulk they can be quite cheap. We are still researching this possibility, but if we do it we would want them to be owned by the author.

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ISBNs identify the purchaser as the publisher. You can't purchase ISBNs in someone else's name. This is in direct conflict with your statement where you say you aren't a publisher. Clearly, you are on some level.

At first only through our site. We would like to help authors make connections to other distribution channels in the future but, from what we've learned in this forum, I think we'll need to prove our worth before approaching those connections.

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I'm sorry, but this sounds exactly like a publisher because you are in control of where the book sells.

We don't have any delusions that most books will be successful. Our hope is that the vetting process will give potential buyers clear indications of which are good versus bad.

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I'm still at a loss as to how you plan on making any money. You have no publishing experience, so you're not in a position to understand the marketplace, and you admit that you're doubtful whether your books will sell well. Given this, can you please tell me what makes your company a logical choice for authors? Can you appreciate that this particular industry isn't a learn-as-you-go endeavor? That you're messing about with people's books, and if you go belly up, that you take your authors down the tubes with you?

Just this week, you've changed your mind about how you plan to operate (ditching the spam letters to authors and editors), and you are still feeling your way around, trying to decide who and what you are. Clearly, you still don't have that figured out. You say you're not a publisher, but you certainly have some strong overtones that put you squarely in the publisher's seat.

Don't you think it would be a good idea to actually take time to learn and understand the business so you know what's at stake, so you can develop some sort of viable business plan that makes sense?

jazzcat007 said:

I don't see us as a publisher either. More a of a marketplace for authors who want to self-publish.

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In that case perhaps you'll want to rename your enterprise.

Given the marketplaces that already exist for authors who want to self-publish how is yours different/better? How do you intend to enforce the plan whereby people who download free books must mention those books in social media? Given the numerous sources of free ebooks that already exist why are people going to want to download these?

Probably not many. We don't have any delusions that most books will be successful. Our hope is that the vetting process will give potential buyers clear indications of which are good versus bad.

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How is this "vetting process" different from/better than the tools readers already have in Goodreads, Amazon (and other distribution site) reviews, and review blogs? I'm frankly not seeing any vetting process at all, given the lack of response to my questions about your acquisition/editing process.

Are those books selling better in other venues?

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Yes.

We have been kicking around the idea of giving ISBN's after the first sale. If we buy them in bulk they can be quite cheap. We are still researching this possibility, but if we do it we would want them to be owned by the author.

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If you're buying ISBNs in bulk then it will be impossible for you to give the ISBN to the author -- ISBNs uniquely identify the publisher as well as the format, the title, the author, and the edition. That is, all ISBNs with the same initial string must by nature belong to the same publisher. If you're buying ISBNs in smaller lots then the cost of the ISBN is likely to be higher than the lifetime income from a given title.

Without an ISBN your books won't be available through certain channels (e.g. Apple).

From where I sit your business model most closely resembles Xlibris at its foundation (before it became an out-and-out vanity press and was bought first by Bertelsmann then by Author Solutions). Other failed implementations of this idea include Mighty Words.

James D. Macdonald said:

From where I sit your business model most closely resembles Xlibris at its foundation (before it became an out-and-out vanity press and was bought first by Bertelsmann then by Author Solutions). Other failed implementations of this idea include Mighty Words.

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I think they're trying to describe a business model that most closely resembles Smashwords, but without the book-conversion stage and using reviews/ratings to drive a graduated pricing structure. But without a very clear picture of how the publishing industry works, I think they're struggling to find the vocabulary to convey that.

What that says to me is that they're jumping straight into one of the messiest, meanest areas of the self-publishing arena. And I haven't heard anything that makes me think they're ready for the moderation and human-interaction management load that that will bring. A situation where reviews drive discovery and pricing, while ratings are supposed to keep the reviewers honest, sounds to me like not just one opportunity to have your system gamed and trolled, but two.

As I understand the plan it's this:

1) They release raw slush in e-book form.
2) These e-books are free at first, to people who agree to mention/review them in social media.
3) After a certain number of social media mentions/reviews the price of each book is raised to $0.99.
4) Those that sell at $0.99 cents have their prices raised to some higher number.
5) Those that sell at the higher price have their prices raised again.
6) Continue raising the price until the book stops selling.

I hope my understanding is flawed, because that plan makes no sense whatever.

Back when Xlibris got started their plan was to offer POD publication to everyone, for free. Those few titles that sold in significant numbers, the "cream rising to the top" would subsidize the larger number that sold few or no copies.

This didn't work because even their best-sellers sold modest numbers (as such things are reckoned), and while the costs of holding large numbers of digital files is small, those costs are real and do add up.

Smashwords works by reducing production costs to near-zero and automating everything possible. Even so, checking out their best-selling titles is instructive.

evilrooster said:

A situation where reviews drive discovery and pricing, while ratings are supposed to keep the reviewers honest, sounds to me like not just one opportunity to have your system gamed and trolled, but two.

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Reviews and ratings. O yeah.

Perhaps the nice folks from Screwpulp ought to Google on the phrase "Authors behaving badly" for an advance look at what they're going to face.

Smashwords without conversion or distribution is... um, yeah. Almost nothing? Conversion and distribution is basically what they do from my point of view. I really am closing on in seeing this as YADS.

Okay, I have to respond to this even though katie touched on it. I don't comment much but this statement made me choke:

This method typically produces high quality work but not all rejected work is bad. We know this because there is a huge surge in self-publishing.

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Seriously? Absolutely, I agree that not all rejected material is bad, but the surge in self-publishing isn't proof of that. Not even close. The surge is simply that people can now easily publish their bad material.

And I'm sorry, your company is just like the hundreds of others that claim to be different and that, in the end, are just like the others. I wish you success but I fear that based on your lack of understanding of the industry and your first approach to people within the industry, as has happened so many, many times, you'll not make it and take a lot of authors with you.

My best advice to you is to take to heart what the others tell you here. They know of what they speak.

And please stop claiming that the surge in self-publishing has anything to do with publisher's rejection of good manuscripts. In part, it does. In a bigger percentage, it has only flooded the market with bad material.

Good luck.

I generally avoid anything involving the term "self-publishing" because it invariably involves the writer putting up some of their own money to get their work out there. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem if people want to spend their money this way. I'd rather take my chances with the traditional route. It would take a lot to convince me to go the self-publishing route.

Just a quick note, sorry to resurrect the thread: Screwpulp has changed its name to Leafless.

I wandered onto their website today, and promptly scurried back to AW to check on them. This forum is awesome for that.

Yup, setting the publishing world on fire just like they promised. Yawn. Essentially, this is what we suspected it would be: YADS.