Martin Brown Publishers, LLC

I would never say that writers are stupid. I would say that many are inexperienced, ill-informed, and ignorant, and that many attempt to jump into publishing without doing a speck of research. This is why schemes, scams, and amateur agents/publishers are able to flourish, right alongside the many experienced and reputable agents, publishers, editors, contests, etc.

Just over the past couple of months, I've heard from two--that's right, two--writers who allowed their manuscripts to be published without publishing contracts, and are now embroiled in disputes with their "publishers". These aren't dumb people; in fact one is an accomplished business professional. They just didn't take the time to sufficiently educate themselves about publishing before starting to look for a publisher. They also seemed to have assumed that publishing somehow works differently from other business arrangements--a deeply mistaken view I often encounter among new writers, who too often believe that their really nice publisher won't screw them over despite a contract with gigantic holes in it, or that an agent who has no more professional publishing experience than they do can somehow get them where they can't go themselves. Sorry if that sounds jaundiced, but it drives me crazy sometimes that so many otherwise sensible people seem to put their smarts on hold when it comes to their writing.

I do understand how it can seem that the traditional publishing world is less-than-open to new writers--but this really isn't true. I'm not saying it isn't hard--it is. I'm just saying that being new is just one factor among many factors that agents and publishers evaluate, and by no means the first consideration when they decide to reject a submission. Just browsing the new books section in your local library should give you a sense of how many debut novels are being published.

- Victoria

No experience, but the basic design of their website and blog is... painful. That alone would keep me from submitting to them.

Granted, that design says nothing about how good they are at selling their books and they may be amazing at that. Others will chime in, hopefully.

Rob Brown said:

Dear Ms. Anderson,

Please except my apologies, but I don't remember our email conversation. I also don't remember saying that authors are expected to do 100% of marketing, as this would be a foolish statement for any business entity to make. We do, however, encourage new, unpublished authors to build an author presence online and elsewhere. In fact, if a writer wishes to write commercially, he or she should begin building a presence the same moment he or she sits down to write that first sentence in his or her book or novel. After all, who knows you except those within your circle of friends and family? If they are your only reading audience, you can expect to sell under 100 copies of something you worked very hard to produce.

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But no.

Publishers, with their media and retailer connections, are the people who are expected to raise the awareness of books and authors. It's how they sell books. It's how they stay in business. It's why reviews in major publications and sales reps to get booksellers about titles are so important.

An author's first priority is to write a great book. Confusing that -- especially early on -- with marketing efforts (for a book that doesn't even exist) is misguided.

Rob Brown said:

Ah Yes:

So you honestly believe that all writers, first time or not, should sit on their hands and do nothing. I think I've heard this lament before--as an agent. It doesn't work, however, with large publishers or small. The first thing agents or publishers do is Google a writer's name when they receive a query. Nothing there, no representation. Nothing there, no publication.

Bad advice my friend, with abundant failures flourish saying otherwise. Ask Joe Konrath where he would be today if he had sat on his hands and done nothing to promote his books, or himself.

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No. I don't believe that all writers, first time or not, should sit on their hands and do nothing. But my bigger contention is the part where you said:

"After all, who knows you except those within your circle of friends and family? If they are your only reading audience, you can expect to sell under 100 copies of something you worked very hard to produce."

Are you saying that if a publisher does its job--getting out pre-pub review copies, working with a sales rep/distribution team, marketing, etc. that an author can only hope to sell to his/her friends and family?

Because I'll assert, with a great degree of confidence that if an author did choose to sit on his or her hands and a publishing company did its job, a lot more books will sell than if a publisher relies simply on an author to manufacture some social media presence. Publisher efforts are multi-fold more critical than author efforts in the publicity and marketing arenas (and these are the things that make sales).

Joe Konrath's initial presence was certainly a part of Joe's efforts (most notably his driving tour), but he wouldn't have gotten the audiences with the people he did if it weren't for the reach of his publishing company. Citing Joe Konrath as an example of what an author should/shouldn't do isn't really practical given the history. It's also significantly more relevant to authors who opt to self-publish (a case where he/she is having to take on the tasks typically left to publishing companies).

I also disagree with your assertion that a lack of Google presence means rejection. Further, I maintain that just because an aspiring author has a huge social media footprint, that it is a guarantee for anything. So many people are loud, but ultimately self-injurious, when playing P.T. Barnum on various social media platforms. Obnoxious and boorish in the public square isn't preferred over a wall flower.

Mr. Brown, thank you for joining the discussion. We appreciate a publisher's first-hand perspective.

In view of your responses to TJ Amberson and Round Two, can you advise specifically what you would do in terms of marketing and promotion?

I feel compelled to ask since I found little relative information on your website, and that is a significant issue for the members of this site (AW).

Thanks in advance...

Rob Brown said:

The first thing agents or publishers do is Google a writer's name when they receive a query. Nothing there, no representation. Nothing there, no publication.

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Okay.

Rob Brown said:

The first thing agents or publishers do is Google a writer's name when they receive a query. Nothing there, no representation. Nothing there, no publication.

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Just curious - do you mean if any agent or publisher received a book that's both amazingly written and suited for the market, but the author didn't have a website, blog, Facebook page, Twitter feed, etc., the agent or publisher would send a rejection?

Rob Brown said:

The first thing agents or publishers do is Google a writer's name when they receive a query. Nothing there, no representation. Nothing there, no publication.

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This was not my experience.

Giant Baby said:

This was not my experience.

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Yes, but who's gonna Google 'Gnome Butt?'


ETA. Hmmm....just did. Dont....Just....Dont.

Hanson said:

Yes, but who's gonna Google 'Gnome Butt?'


ETA. Hmmm....just did. Dont....Just....Dont.

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I use my full name professionally. It's Nekkid Gnome Butt.

Rob Brown said:

The first thing agents or publishers do is Google a writer's name when they receive a query. Nothing there, no representation. Nothing there, no publication.

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I hear Lovecraft was a big people person. It explains so much.

On a slightly less facetious note, if this is such a large concern for you, why do you have less than ten posts listed on your AW account? Shouldn't you have joined up a long time ago and have established yourself before becoming an Agent/Publisher? This kind of language about making an authorial presence has *some* sense, but not total sense. What an author should be doing is interacting with fans, talking and communicating and reminding people that they exist. But one does not necessarily come before the other.

I'm not looking to pick a fight about it, but by your own logic none of us should take you seriously.

Well, to be fair, everyone starts at their own level, in this game.

I have a boatload of AW posts because you people are bloody fascinating to watch argue, and because I will leap for all possible distractions before doing my work. I built my 'platform', such as it is, on several different fiction and art fronts. They all lead into each other.

My debut novel didn't sell because of my fan fiction 'platform'. I actually lose a few art clients when they realize I occasionally write smut under another name. I don't constantly tweet 'buy my stuff'. I'm barely able to remember that I have a Tumblr and Pinterest account. I blog things I want to write about, not machine-made SEO keywords.

My publisher has done far, far more to market my work than I could do myself. That's why I picked their offer.

elinor said:

On a slightly less facetious note, if this is such a large concern for you, why do you have less than ten posts listed on your AW account? Shouldn't you have joined up a long time ago and have established yourself before becoming an Agent/Publisher?

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Mr. Brown has many more posts here under a different AW account. They're in the Wylie-Merrick Literary Agency thread (his old agency, before he became a publisher).

- Victoria

victoriastrauss said:

Mr. Brown has many more posts here under a different AW account. They're in the Wylie-Merrick Literary Agency thread (his old agency, before he became a publisher).

- Victoria

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Ahhh alright. Thank you for pointing that out, I was unaware of it.

So had I. They are also entertaining.

Rob Brown said:

if a writer wishes to write commercially, he or she should begin building a presence the same moment he or she sits down to write that first sentence in his or her book or novel.

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Nope.

When writers sit down to write, all they need to focus on is their writing.

A website is useful, but if you're with a good publisher then you do not need to establish a presence in this way. Concentrate on writing the best book that you can.

After all, who knows you except those within your circle of friends and family? If they are your only reading audience, you can expect to sell under 100 copies of something you worked very hard to produce.

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True. But if you're working with a good publisher they will take your book to its readership. Anything you do is extra; and without the publishers' efforts, anything you do is likely to make only a tiny impact on your sales figures.

Rob Brown said:

So you honestly believe that all writers, first time or not, should sit on their hands and do nothing.

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Do you honestly believe that's what was suggested?

I think I've heard this lament before--as an agent. It doesn't work, however, with large publishers or small. The first thing agents or publishers do is Google a writer's name when they receive a query. Nothing there, no representation. Nothing there, no publication.

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This is completely untrue.

Publishers don't ignore great books just because the authors who sent them in don't have a web presence. If they think they can sell them they sign them up, just as they would if the author had a great web presence.

If writers are going to start blogs, it's important to ensure they're positive and professional. I know of several instances where agents have turned down potential clients because they felt their web presence was negative.

Bad advice my friend, with abundant failures flourish saying otherwise.

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Please tell me you're not an editor.

Ask Joe Konrath where he would be today if he had sat on his hands and done nothing to promote his books, or himself.

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There's an interesting article about Mr Konrath here, which puts his recent success into focus. He is a relentless self-promoter, it's true: but he was given his start by trade publishers and it was their work which established him.

IMO, relentless self-promotion can allow a midlister to cross over to mild bestseller, or a nonentity to become a midlister, or a comet-type to soar for a year or two, like John Locke, but that's like saying that since a number of authors maintain the sales of their fiction catalog through an aggressive output of how-to-write-fiction textbooks and teaching writing courses -- all contemporary authors must therefore right now this instant slap together how-to-write-fiction textbooks and start teaching people to write, promote, and cook.

I dare someone to find the web presence of Thomas Harris, or a picture of Dean Koontz signing books. Some guys are so badass the world revolves around them; they do not have to run through the streets tugging at the sleeves of passersby, telling each how cool they dress and how nice they smell and trying to memorize the names of their children.

Then again, the 'gravitational center' is not the type of authors you find staying with small indie epub presses, so this is just yet another instance of fragile-ego people being somewhat dishonest in the sense of not saying: "This is what we need because that's the only thing that can work with our resources" (which is fair enough), but instead go: "Are you nuts? The whole industry, nay--all industries, fields, and professions work like this; from the humble assistant-plumber to the head of the UN, everyone must blog, tweet, upload daily video-updates of their lives, meet with fans and admirers at least once a week, and have many, many Facebook friends! Or are you some sort of slacker who does not want to pull his weight? For shame!"

Rock on, Dondomat!

Please except my apologies ...

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I have no confidence in a publisher who doesn't understand the difference between except and accept.

victoriastrauss said:

Mr. Brown has many more posts here under a different AW account. They're in the Wylie-Merrick Literary Agency thread (his old agency, before he became a publisher).

- Victoria

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Mr. Brown did not ask if he could create a second account, and until Mr. Brown contacts either me or the site owner, MacAllister, he won't be posting at all.

Rob Brown said:

Ahh, Dean Koontz and Richard Harris--oh so yesterday. Yes, there was a time when publishers could take a writer with talent and work to build them into a super star. But alas, those days, I'm afraid, are gone forever. By the way, thank you all for this wonderful discussion.

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I don't know how Mr. Brown is as a publisher, but he certainly knows how to package condescension.

Rob Brown said:

Ahh, Dean Koontz and Richard Harris--oh so yesterday.

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...and today and tomorrow.

They're both huge sellers. Why are you sneering at them?

Yes, there was a time when publishers could take a writer with talent and work to build them into a super star. But alas, those days, I'm afraid, are gone forever.

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If you're right, there will be no more literary superstars. Luckily, you're wrong.

By the way, thank you all for this wonderful discussion. What I see mostly is disagreement about when, if ever, a writer should, or should not, begin to build a following.

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What I see us disagreeing about is whether or not writers should have to establish their own online presence in order to be published, or be a success.

Consider the recent success of The Good Wife, and the longer-established success of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. The authors of both books died before their books were published; they had no online presence; and yet their books have sold really well.

Many agree that the publisher should do all the marketing and let writers write. In a perfect world, that would be the way to do it. However, think about this for a moment: Publishers don't publish just one author. What they promote is their list.

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They promote their list, that's true. But they do also promote individual books: if they didn't, I wouldn't receive the numerous ARCs I get each month, I wouldn't see reviews of books in the local and national presses, I wouldn't see authors signing their books in bookshops, I wouldn't see writers talking at conventions and fairs, I wouldn't have this clutch of bookmarks, bags and various other promotional items that I'm looking at right now, and I wouldn't see books on front tables in my local bookshops.

And yet....

Also, most publisher concentrate their marketing money on those authors who are making them a return on that marketing investment. Publishing, after all, is a business.

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Publishing is a business. And it makes very poor business sense to invest as heavily in new products and then fail to market those new products. Luckily for us, good publishers do market and promote the books they publish, no matter how many times you keep insisting that they don't.

Your insistence that marketing isn't done by publishers doesn't bode well for the future of your publishing company, I'm afraid. It's almost guaranteed to result in poor sales, and that's not good for you, for your writers, or for your potential readers. You might want to rethink this point.

Rob Brown said:

I wish I could enlarge on this conversation

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I wish you could too, then you might be able to explain why every agent or publisher who receives a brilliant, highly marketable novel by an author with no web presence must send a rejection.

longish post, sorry

Mr. Brown, you may not be able to post for a bit, but I'm sure you are reading this thread. I wish you the best. You seem passionately protective of your authors and business, and that's refreshing to see these days.

I'm not an expert. However, I have watched forms of this discussion play out for years.

No one is suggesting there are only two ways to go about this 'building a platform' business. Especially for fiction authors, there are many steps between 'author does all the marketing' and 'publisher does all the marketing.' To reduce the argument to just those two poles is to create a false equivalency as to their effectiveness.

I have been told, either in meetings or via email, by many of the top genre agents in the US: 'Good writing sells' and 'Good writing trumps nearly everything else.' The one place where it fails is where good writing runs up against boorish online or public behavior. And even then, if the writing is good enough, the agent or editor might take a risk with some damage control.

Relentless social media appearances for the obvious sake of building an authorial presence are just that - obvious and off-putting. A good social media platform entertains and informs far more than it pitches, and it often grows organically out of an author's or artist's interests.

In my two decades as a commercial artist, and my five years of lurking here on AW, I have watched ambitious small presses launch with varying degrees of sustainable success. In the case of the many failures, one of the strongest common trends was a reliance on authors to do all or most of the marketing. These publishers were either unwilling to admit they had no wider outreach goals, or even unaware that they needed to promote their business. This is, in fact, a fairly common hallmark of subsidy presses, too.

Some authors are great at promoting themselves through personal appearances and online sites. AW's own Gini Koch and Kevin Hearne do exhaustive outreach to bolster the support of their (large) publishers.

Some authors haven't the foggiest notion of how to do it, and they are not getting the training and tools they need from their small-press publishers. This creates the vicious cycle of single-to-double digit sales per year, and hapless authors skipping from one floundering small press to another. They might as well have self-published, for all the good having a publisher did them.

Good publishers can and do spend large amounts of money in marketing and promoting their catalogs and individual titles. That's figured into the Profit and Loss statements every editor has to survive while pitching every new work - whether it's from a newbie with no footprint, or a media diva with a million followers.

Small publishers typically follow one of two strategies: publish a lot of books with minimal marketing and hope a few hit it big, or publish fewer books and concentrate promotion efforts on those.

The small to medium e-publishers I know understand economies of scale, when it comes to promotion. I may not attend the huge romance conventions, but I directly benefit when my publishers do so. When they launch publisher awareness campaigns in industry periodicals. When one of the best-selling authors has a major hit, or an interview that goes viral across social media. When they have a boost, readers go to their sites. Some of those readers find me. They go talk to other readers. Word of mouth happens.

My publishers have very little to do with the other media platforms I've built over the years. They didn't ask me that much about them, other than wanting links so we could combine promotions. In the eighteen months since my debut novel launched, I've probably sold no more than 50 books to readers coming in from those platforms (based on their emails to me.) I don't even push my work at friends and family, not out of shame but because I don't write things they love. In contrast, my very first month of publication, as a complete unknown - my publisher's site alone sold 125 copies of my book.

That was because they have an energetic and persistent marketing department.

In conclusion, an author's manuscript is far more important to an effective agent or publisher than their platforms - unless the author is turning their blog, vlog, etc. into a book.

Queen of Swords said:

I wish you could too, then you might be able to explain why every agent or publisher who receives a brilliant, highly marketable novel by an author with no web presence must send a rejection.

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Yeah, what's up with that Pynchon guy anyway?