Quick, non-scientific poll - Do you know anyone who is offended by "Merry Christmas"?

I'm one of those "types" of Americas that the right likes to take stabs at--liberal, not religious and so on. I tend to send cards that say things like "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings," because I have friends of varying religion and non religion and who have different traditions surrounding the midwinter holidays, and some don't celebrate even the secular aspects of Christmas. I don't think any would be offended if I did send "Christmas" cards. It's simply a small courtesy on my part, a way of acknowledging that this time of year has different significance for everyone.

The highly religion specific displays in public space are another issue, of course. Then you get into the sticky territory of the government appearing to favor or sponsor a particular religion over others.

I have yet to hear any secularist or non Christian friend say they're offended by lights, Santas, and Christmas trees, however. And shops and malls are private, so the owner of said store can do whatever he or she wants. Customers can choose to shop or not shop there.

regdog said:

Trivia time

I believe it was in 2007 that in Australia's Santas were told not to say "Ho Ho Ho" because it insulted women.

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That would have added a little ray of holiday sunshine to my otherwise bleak outlook on Christmas. But alas -- while yes, some Santas were trained to substitute "ha ha ha," it was because (oddly) a big booming "ho ho ho" was deemed too frightening for small children.

You know what, reg? I'm going to continue to believe the sexist version anyway, just because it makes me happier. And isn't that what Christmas is all about?

shadowwalker said:

I can remember way back when the whole Happy Holidays thing got started, and yeah, it was irksome at the time because it was basically 'forced' - if you did say Merry Christmas people were quick to point out how exclusionary that was, and how wrong it was to say that. That changed over time, thank God, but I would imagine that's where the 'war on Christmas' took root. For the most part, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think it's that way now, but it definitely had that feel in the beginning.

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I mean, change is always like that at the beginning. Nobody likes to be told what to do.

juniper said:

This reminds me of someone - when wished "Have a great day!" by a store clerk, she'd say, "Thanks, but I have other plans."

She liked seeing the confused look on the clerk's face that followed.

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Haha! Though my favorite response to that would be "Don't tell me what to do!"

CassandraW said:

If you're wearing a Christmas sweater, a wreath of holly around your santa hat, and jingle bells dangling from your ears, perhaps it might be said that you're implicitly soliciting a Merry Christmas.

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I guess I mean less that and more that when you approach someone and get a greeting, you walked right into that one. But if there's someone giving out unsolicited greetings, and those greetings happen to be Merry Christmas, I'm inclined now to say "No." If pressed, I might say, "It ain't Christmas yet!"



I do wonder about all the atheists who say "Christmas is secular"... do you have Christian heritage?

It puzzles me how glued I am to watching this thread. We need a pic of the 'Fra-gee-lay' statement on the box from the movie, A Christmas Story.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I do wonder about all the atheists who say "Christmas is secular"... do you have Christian heritage?

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I think the argument is that it's been co-opted by consumerism.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

I think the argument is that it's been co-opted by consumerism.

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I just find it strange because as someone who is not Christian and has never been Christian I've never felt any desire to celebrate Christmas, and would think that if someone had it in their childhood they would want to continue it even if they no longer had any of the religious beliefs behind it.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I do wonder about all the atheists who say "Christmas is secular"... do you have Christian heritage?

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I'm guess the answer to that is likely to be yes in most cases. I'm not religious, but Christmas is something my family has always celebrated because, well, they're christians, and so I celebrate it, too. If I were an agnostic or atheist of Jewish heritage, I doubt I'd celebrate Christmas.

Well, actually, come to think of it, maybe I would, but in an ironic way, because that's the way I roll. I like to do it up on Valentine's Day, another holiday I abhor. (Damn, do people really like treacly cards and overpriced heart-shaped food in an unironic way?)

In the States, Christmas is so far from a Christian holiday it's funny. If anything, it has become a corporate holiday with the usual sacrifices to the great Green God of Greed.

Personally, I've always looked at someone wishing me merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, seasons greetings, happy holidays, etc, as simply someone sending good wishes my way and accept it as such.

Perks said:

So, Walmart and Home Depot managed to get their Christmas displays up slightly ahead of the wave of "War on Christmas" complaints.

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Stores can be forgiven for putting up Christmas gear early. They know few people are shopping for the holidays in mid-September, but they also know that when they put up their enormous twinkling displays early, people will see them and think of That Store when they are ready to buy. It's bad holidaying but unbeatable marketing.

Perks said:

But, now it's starting again - the Facebook posts decrying what a shame it is that Americans can't say "Merry Christmas" anymore for fear of offending a certain type.

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Ah Facebook. I recently completely changed the way I use it, and the magic is I don't see any of that stupid crap anymore. I haven't even seen any judgmental garbage about "Greedy people shopping on black Friday" yet and it's less than a week away. You just validating my FB parking. Thank you!

Perks said:

It's hard not to roll my eyes when someone now says "Merry Christmas" through practically gritted teeth, drilling into my eyes, daring me to dribble-some-liberal on their insistence.

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While I know no one who is offended by Merry Christmas, I have run across people who get offended by any other greeting and answer it with what they feel is a corrective, stern and rather bitchslappy Merry Christmas! Ho fucking Ho Ho Ho to them!

Fingers said:

As a life long atheist, I find it kind of silly that people still consider Christmas to be a Christian holiday, at least in the states.

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It boggles my mind to see Christians trying to "protect" the holiday traditions as if how anyone celebrates is their business.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I do wonder about all the atheists who say "Christmas is secular"... do you have Christian heritage?

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So much of it is secular though, or rooted in Paganism. Fat guy in a red suit, flying reindeer, elves, toys, mulled wine, snow, sweet treats, stockings on the fireplace, cookies and milk .... what's any of this really got to do with a Jewish baby born in a Middle Eastern desert in the springtime?

I'm Jewish, and while I get intensely bored with all the Christmas everything creeping earlier and earlier into the year, I still love me a good Nutcracker. <3 I find that I vastly prefer being wished 'Merry Christmas,' as long as the intentions are good, over some form of combined 'Happy Chrismukkah!' mashup.

Getting on my seasonal soapbox: Hannukah has nothing to do with Christmas. It is not 'the Jewish Christmas,' nor is it 'Christmas, but, like, without Christ,' nor is it even a very important holiday as far as the Jewish calendar is concerned. It is a minor, non-biblical holiday, originally commemorated by eating fried foods and giving kids pocket money to gamble with. Presents were added in the 20th century as a reaction to mass-marketing of winter/Christmas as the season for giving.

Merging Hannukah with Christmas in pop culture does a lot more damage, imho, than acknowledging that our Christian friends and neighbours have a holiday that we don't, and enjoy wishing us the best.

Hannukah is a holiday to celebrate a successful guerrilla war / resistance against forced religious assimilation. Blending it with the majority winter holiday just because they fall around the same time of year is the ultimate in irony.

tl;dr: Jewish, and I don't mind. I'll wish 'same to you' right back, and all seems to be well.

(Now ask me what I want to say to the next little old granny on the bus who asks my kids about their lists for Santa, and then gets SUPER OFFENDED and argues with me when I say that we don't 'do' Santa. Because Santa is secular, don't'cha know, and Christmas is for EVERYONE... ARGH.)

CassandraW said:

I'm guess the answer to that is likely to be yes in most cases. I'm not religious, but Christmas is something my family has always celebrated because, well, they're christians, and so I celebrate it, too. If I were an agnostic or atheist of Jewish heritage, I doubt I'd celebrate Christmas.

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I guess it's always made me uncomfortable when people insist that it's secular, like that means I must celebrate it somehow even though I'm not Christian. It really does feel like it's being forced on me and I've always hated the season because of it.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I guess it's always made me uncomfortable when people insist that it's secular, like that means I must celebrate it somehow even though I'm not Christian. It really does feel like it's being forced on me and I've always hated the season because of it.

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I don't blame you a bit. Hate away, and know that even many of us who celebrate it loathe all the hoopla and wish we could cut it down to a quiet little holiday.

By the way, your post is pretty much exactly what my Jewish friend (the one I mentioned in my first post in this thread) says about the holiday. He particularly hated it as a kid -- his school always did all this Christmas stuff and it made him feel like an alien and a freak.

I'm sure I'd feel the same way ('cause, hell, I kind of feel that way now).

I have non-Christian friends that feel like the whole Christmas season is an onslaught. Personally, I smile when I hear the greeting--as long as it's given in a genuine way.

As someone who's grown up celebrating Christmas, I am tired of the over commercialization of the holiday and have basically dialed it back with my own family and friends to mostly homemade gifts and spending time together.

TessB said:

(Now ask me what I want to say to the next little old granny on the bus who asks my kids about their lists for Santa, and then gets SUPER OFFENDED and argues with me when I say that we don't 'do' Santa. Because Santa is secular, don't'cha know, and Christmas is for EVERYONE... ARGH.)

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Hapax Legomenon said:

I guess it's always made me uncomfortable when people insist that it's secular, like that means I must celebrate it somehow even though I'm not Christian. It really does feel like it's being forced on me and I've always hated the season because of it.

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In these examples nosy people failing to mind their own business as much as those nosy Christians who want to insist every celebrate Christmas as though it only pertains to the birth of Jesus.

Why can't people just celebrate their own way (or not at all) without concerning themselves with how other do (or don't) do it.

And Tess, that's a very good point about Hannukah. I think people bring it up around the holidays in an effort to seem "inclusive" but it can really just end up showing off their ignorance about Jewish holidays.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I just find it strange because as someone who is not Christian and has never been Christian I've never felt any desire to celebrate Christmas, and would think that if someone had it in their childhood they would want to continue it even if they no longer had any of the religious beliefs behind it.

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We didn't have any religious beliefs about it in my household. Total non church goers, and my brother and I weren't even baptized. But we had a tree, and cookies, and carols, and santa and so on. And we got together with family and had a nice meal and presents. Still do, in fact. It's fun. And there was a sort of a spiritual sense of well being. Something to look forward to at a time of year when the days are short and you're starting to feel a bit blah. To this day, I enjoy seeing the neighborhood light displays at this time of year. It gives me the energy to get out and walk the dogs in the evenings after work when it's cold and dark and I really feel like sitting around on my duff.

Of course it is part of my western European, Christian heritage, even though we personally aren't religious. I know that people who are members of other cultural traditions would very possibly have a different take on it.

But I'd be sad if it went away completely, even though I am not a Christian, and in fact, many of the things I think of as "Christmasey" really stem from European pagan customs, don't they? I actually get a bit offended when people say that if I haven't accepted Jesus as my personal savior, or don't participate in a religion that claims Jesus is the son of God, that I have no business enjoying any part of the holiday.

Roxxsmom said:

Of course it is part of my western European, Christian heritage, even though we personally aren't religious. I know that people who are members of other cultural traditions would very possibly have a different take on it.

But I'd be sad if it went away completely, even though I am not a Christian, and in fact, many of the things I think of as "Christmasey" really stem from European pagan customs, don't they?

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It's less a matter of wanting it to go away completely, but for people to acknowledge that it is a part of a European, Christian heritage, so that even if people who are not religious celebrate it, they can still acknowledge that there are people who do not share this European, Christian heritage and therefore do not celebrate it no matter how "secular" they say it is.

Roxxsmom said:

We didn't have any religious beliefs about it in my household. Total non church goers, and my brother and I weren't even baptized. But we had a tree, and cookies, and carols, and santa and so on. And we got together with family and had a nice meal and presents. Still do, in fact. It's fun.

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My family of origin has always been that way too. If anything, they take Christmas traditions even more seriously than a lot of Christians, maybe because with no religion the traditions themselves became the point.

As an adult I've had to recalibrate and boil Christmas down to the parts I genuinely enjoy and forget the stuff I used to feel obligated about (like putting out ALL the decorations or the baking fussy cookies I didn't even enjoy making).

Perks said:

I think it should be illegal.

And truly, I don't want to see jolly holly before the day after Thanksgiving, but I'm resigned that it's a lost cause.

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Yeah, I'm not known as a big "law and order" guy, but I think any mention or display of Christmas prior to Black Friday should be a hangin' offense.

Devil Ledbetter said:

...As an adult I've had to recalibrate and boil Christmas down to the parts I genuinely enjoy and forget the stuff I used to feel obligated about (like putting out ALL the decorations or the baking fussy cookies I didn't even enjoy making).

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ITA and extend that to many homemaker obligations the rest of the year, too. My immediate family doesn't care anyway so all those "shoulds" added tension for no good reason. They still pop up in my mind sometimes, though.

My brother is an atheist, my son agnostic, and they love Christmas. It's a family time for them, versus religious. Me, I get more into the beliefs side, but that's a private thing for me (ie, I don't insist we go to midnight mass or anything like that). I don't get over-religious and they indulge my craving for Xmas carols playing on Christmas Eve (see how I mixed my spellings there? ).