Algonkian Writer Conferences / WebDelSol

francisbruno said:

There are many others who frequent absolute write that can point out the error of your thinking ...

My pitch was skewered. I was told it wasn't publishable and I needed a new idea asap. Then they moved on to the next person. No help given to fix. no ideas tossed around, nothing. I wasn't the only one, either.

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Thank you. I can hardly wait to learn the "error of my thinking." That's odd. I suppose I was and am delusional regarding the beneficial effect the conference had on my work. I recommend reviewing the NYC Pitch and Shop thread. There are a number of people published as a result of the conference who disagree with you and who were not taught the "error of their thinking." As a matter of fact, you are the only one I know of on AW who actually attended the conference and came out negative. I might be incorrect. Therefore, it only makes sense that those who will soon arrive to teach me the "error of my thinking" have never attended the event.

But that's your opinion. No one here is going to teach me the "error" since I know it doesn't exist. I'm not in error. You're not a mind reader, and my experience was valid, just like the experience of Audrey, and many others.

And again, I'm sorry you had a bad experience. What you say here in no way reflects my experience, really, not in the least.

Good luck with your novel too. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Thedrellum said:

BabsWriter,

Mostly, I just want to say that the cardinal rule here is to Respect Your Fellow Writer.

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Thank you for reminding me. I just meant to emphasize that Francis Bruno doesn't speak for every writer who has attended the NYC event in question. But he has written a "werewolf" novel and that is true. I didn't know that was a dig. I actually like werewolfish lit from time to time, and paranormal romance now and then.

Thanks for being such a watchful guardian person.

I love you guys, really. Please tell Susan Breen and Will and Scott and Dee and all the many other Algonkian supporters here I said hi. Oh, and hi Audrey! Love you!

BabsWriter said:

Thank you. I can hardly wait to learn the "error of my thinking." That's odd. I suppose I was and am delusional regarding the beneficial effect the conference had on my work. I recommend reviewing the NYC Pitch and Shop thread. There are a number of people published as a result of the conference who disagree with you and who were not taught the "error of their thinking." As a matter of fact, you are the only one I know of on AW who actually attended the conference and came out negative. I might be incorrect. Therefore, it only makes sense that those who will soon arrive to teach me the "error of my thinking" have never attended the event.

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Methinks you are taking this much too personally. You had a good time and were successful. I never meant that someone could change your thinking of the conference. However, real publishing doesn't work the way you seem to think. However, if you insist that it does, then good luck to you.

BabsWriter said:

Good luck with your novel too. I'm sorry if I offended you.

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You never did say if Michael sent you here armed with the info or if you actually read the thread?

As for others, I have recently been contacted personally by someone thanking me for my thoughts. They are too afraid to come forward for reasons of their own. I won't speak for them, but I will say I am certainly not alone. In fact the biggest problem with the conference is that people are shot down ruthlessly and I have seen people walk out. A new writer treated this way can easily give up hope and abandon their dream. All from a person with very little authority.

Mr Neff has a track record of sending sock puppets and bullying people. I'm sure your post count of three doesn't put you in that camp, but you might want to actually look around and talk to some people before you place a dog in the fight. You might just learn something.

I felt like an ass after I stuck my head out as you have done and you might feel the same as time goes on. Luckily I mended fences with the authors I offended, but I still feel bad (Sorry Stacia).

Good luck in your endeavors. I am happy that you got a publishing deal and that the conference helped you in some way.

I've read this thread with interest. I have not attended this conference nor do I plan to do so.

However, I have put on a much smaller conference or workshop for the past 11 years and I can say that we have always had one or two people who simply had a bad time. This happens no matter what we did to try to make it a worthwhile experience for everyone. Some people have a great time and wind up selling their work or getting an agent.

What I've found is that you just can't please everyone. I think it's very useful to read through these threads and weigh the experiences of others in deciding whether an event will be a good fit for me. After many years of attending conferences and workshops, I feel that they do much to renew my creativity and provide information which will help me in my writing (both craft and business-wise). But I'm an experienced conference attendee and I know that not all of them would be fun or productive for me.

I'm not saying no one else should attend this conference, I'm just saying it's hard to make an event work for everyone.

In general, I would never attend a conference, query an agent or publisher, or patronize any business where the owner/operator had any of the following allegations against them:

Angrily and unprofessionally engaging critics.
Creating or convincing sockpuppets to do the same.
Issuing vague or specific threats of legal action against critics.
Failing to show inherent conflicts of interest between their business model and their clients.
Engaging in smear campaigns against critics' personal lives.

Even a hint of that behavior is enough to make me back away. So I value it when 'lone voices' dare to protest.

francisbruno said:

However, real publishing doesn't work the way you seem to think. However, if you insist that it does, then good luck to you.

In fact the biggest problem with the conference is that people are shot down ruthlessly and I have seen people walk out.

Good luck in your endeavors. I am happy that you got a publishing deal and that the conference helped you in some way.

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Thank you for your frank opinions, Francis. I did not come here to praise or bash Neff. This is something you've inserted into the dialogue. It appears from your vehemence that you have a personal grudge against him. Whatever then, yes. I wasn't involved with him. I interacted with several NYC editors from major houses, formally and informally at the cocktail party on Saturday night, and my workshop leader is an active member here who had her book published as a result of conference attendance. No one was bullied or sent from the room in tears. You seem to be insinuating that it isn't possible to attend the event without being "ruthlessly" shot down by someone? If this is what you mean to say, which I hope it isn't, then once again you are, perhaps accidentally, creating a false impression. Also, why the dramatic hyperbole? It really sounds more and more like you hold an emotionally charged grudge against someone or something.

As for "real publishing" as you state above, you seem to be insinuating I'm foolish because I don't "think" the way you do? I'm simply relating my experience as different from yours and yet you to continue to find ways to contradict me. Why? What is your motivation if you don't mind me asking? I would appreciate you discontinuing from trying to make me look foolish. Whatever you say, I'm not going to budge from relating my positive experience with the event.

Regardless, I took your advice and browsed the NYC thread and this thread. I see people like Patty Davis, Robert Bausch, Dee Garretson, Susan Breen, Will L., Dalton, and many more speaking of positive experiences.

Since you say there is a track record of sock puppets, where is that evident here? Who are the sock puppets out of these people? I can't tell. Is there a secret to spotting the sock puppet as opposed to a real person who genuinely has difference of opinion? Also, is there a forced relationship between valuing Algonkian and a determination of sock puppetry? I mean, am I soon going to accused of being a sock puppet witch because I am sticking to my guns?

And thank you Macallister Stone for being nice to me. I feel a little surrounded and on the verge of being bullied as it stands right now.

mrsmig said:

I've kept a public silence about the conference because I did not want a repeat performance of that unpleasantness. However, it's time to speak up. I'm glad your Algonkian experience was a good one, BabsWriter, but based on my experience, I can't recommend the conference. So you see, francisbruno is not the lone Voice That Crieth in the Wilderness.

I'm out there, too.

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Of course you can't recommend it, and who would if they had your experience? But realistically, I don't know you, I wasn't there, and I have not heard his side of the story. But in truth, I don't want to engage in a Kardashian-like bash fest targeting one person. I'm not here to defend anyone in particular, or to praise anyone in particular. I just came here to relate my experience after I saw someone asking for an update, that's all.

This is becoming exhausting and strange.

Karen Junker said:

However, I have put on a much smaller conference or workshop for the past 11 years and I can say that we have always had one or two people who simply had a bad time. This happens no matter what we did to try to make it a worthwhile experience for everyone. Some people have a great time and wind up selling their work or getting an agent.

What I've found is that you just can't please everyone. I think it's very useful to read through these threads and weigh the experiences of others in deciding whether an event will be a good fit for me.

I'm not saying no one else should attend this conference, I'm just saying it's hard to make an event work for everyone.

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Thank you so much for being a voice of sanity in the wilderness. I agree with what you say above 110%. There have been conferences I didn't like and other people did. Everyone enters a conference with a different set of skills and expectations.

I feel here on this board that people like you exist to make it easy and fair for interaction, and others exist for the purpose of axe grinding so loud that it hurts my ears.

My apologies to anyone whose blood pressure I elevated simply be relating my positive experience with Algonkian and the NYC event in particular. There appears to be a groundswell of hatred and bitterness lingering here and it feels toxic.

BabsWriter said:

Hi, Francis. My name is Beth and I was in a different NYC pitch group a few years ago. My novel is now scheduled for publication by St. Martins in late 2014. I credit the NYC for helping me achieve this goal in one of several ways, but it was not the only thing that pushed me forward, of course. I can also credit my college English professor, among others.

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Hi, would you mind sharing *how* the conference helped you land the deal?

LindaJeanne said:

Hi, would you mind sharing *how* the conference helped you land the deal?

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Okay, you *asked*.

One on one dialogue in a non-pressured atmosphere with acquisition editors from major houses regarding my premise, plot, characters, market positioning, and other things that helped to transform my novel after a series of rewrites, as well as learning the art of communicating my story via a pitch and query, not to mention great guidance from my workshop leader who is a professional teacher and commercially published author (who found my agent for me), not to mention being with a fantastic group of people who remain my friends and support to this day (just like Francis Bruno). Oh, and there were the many pre-event assignments that helped also to "prime my pump" so to speak.

It was the best writer conference I've ever been too, and frank interaction with publishing professionals without a buzzer or bell making me jump from my seat was a huge plus. Key moments in the overall experience made all the difference. One of my friends, Kim Boykin, was published after having had the same experience in that group. Her novel, THE WISDOM OF HAIR is on the shelf and a second on the way.

Thank you for asking.

Karen Junker said:

I'm not sure which editors and agents Jim has talked to, but several of the ones I've talked to have told me that if they request material at a conference then the writer can write 'Requested Material' in the subject line of their email or on their envelope. This brings the requested material to the attention of the agent or editor and they read it sooner than if it were in the ordinary slush.

This can be a distinct advantage over sitting in a regular slush pile for months or years. Of course, there are editors who take months or years to read even their requested material.

The other advantage to pitching at a conference may be that the agent or editor does not take submissions *except* those pitched at a conference.

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This is an old post, but what's to stop a would-be writer from simply putting that in the subject line (even when it's not). I don't doubt that there are enough people out there, who having heard of such a thing being done, put that in their subject line too in the hopes of jumping the queue on the assumption the agent or editor has a short memory or is unlikely to search through old emails, notes, etc... I wouldn't do it myself, but I'm not sure if it would be such a 'distinct advantage' anymore if it's been common practice for a while.

ETA: Per HapiSofi's post, that does seem to be the case...

Filigree said:

In general, I would never attend a conference, query an agent or publisher, or patronize any business where the owner/operator had any of the following allegations against them:

Angrily and unprofessionally engaging critics.
Creating or convincing sockpuppets to do the same.
Issuing vague or specific threats of legal action against critics.
Failing to show inherent conflicts of interest between their business model and their clients.
Engaging in smear campaigns against critics' personal lives.

Even a hint of that behavior is enough to make me back away. So I value it when 'lone voices' dare to protest.

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You and Francis have given me an itch to scratch. Can you provide specific links providing non-hearsay, non-axegrinding, non-biased proof outside of this AW thread to the accusations above because I can't find a thing even after going five pages deep into google. Lists and bullet points. I simply keep coming back to this same thread round and round again. I was on a hunt and could not find anything. If I do find the above to be true in any way, I will return here and post the facts and findings.

We should be specific and not vague. The truth isn't libel. I am not an attorney, but if you have website, video, etc. proof of fraud, abuse, blackmail, life destruction, atomic sock puppetry, or other crimes, so to speak, let's see it.

And since you brought this up, I want to see these sockpuppets too. Right now they seem to only exist in legend. Point me to them. Why isn't anyone pointing out the thread and naming sockpuppet names? If they exist, let's see them, especially "smear campaigns against critics' personal lives" / Can we get a verification or proof of this allegation? Are you saying that Algonkian staffers or Neff himself engaged in a smear campaign against a writer's personal life? Why hedge? If it happened, why not provide specifics? Who was smeared and how? When?

I'm with you. I love AW, really. There are lots of good people here like James M. and Miss Karen above. AW has a good side, and a dark side. Everyone knows that. There is a huge amount of negativity on the web regarding AW, but I don't let that deter me from seeking out the good in it and finding community. I'm not sure if that is possible now, but perhaps time will heal.

I'm living in a new place with few or no writers. Meetup.Com won't help me!

BabsWriter said:

Hi, Francis. My name is Beth and I was in a different NYC pitch group a few years ago. My novel is now scheduled for publication by St. Martins in late 2014.

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Congratulations and thanks for sharing your positive experience. However, this thread isn't about 'pitch groups' per se, but about one particular organisation hosting one particular set of conferences/pitch sessions - Algonkian.

francisbruno said:

My pitch was skewered. I was told it wasn't publishable and I needed a new idea asap. Then they moved on to the next person. No help given to fix. no ideas tossed around, nothing. I wasn't the only one, either.

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Huh??? "They" move on? I'm sorry, but your statement above about your NYC experience totally contradicts your detailed post in the opening of this thread regarding the exact same event. I mean, night and day. The difference isn't small, it's huge. Huge! :

(I'm asking the mod to please not delete this quote in context of this message--it's only a small part, thanks)
"When I went to the NYC Pitch and Shop in September 2010, I almost left after the first day. I got torn apart with my pitch. I was trying to write a twilightesque novel and it didn't have anything to set it apart, nothing to make an editor stand up and take notice. I decided I had invested my time and money going, so I stuck it through. I met with Michael personally every morning and stayed well into the night talking to him at dinner, absorbing as much as I could. By the end I had honed my novel to the point where it has passed the teenage reader test at a friends school. Without Michaels help, I would still be floundering.

Michael always makes himself available at the conferences and if you had asked to talk to him, I'm sure he would have made the time. I know one of the other attendees was having some problems and Michael went out of his way to help him. There is a lot of pitch work, but there were two writing assignments and Michael did take time to read a portion of the novels on Sunday prior to departure."

OMG! How do you explain this, Francis? Are you going to claim now that someone stuck a knife to your throat? That you were coerced to lie in this minute detail? You were a sock puppet zombie?

I'm sorry, Francis, but tell me why your credibility shouldn't just fly out the window? Your versions of reality are so radically different that only religious conversion might explain it. Your blog tells a different story also, and there is more. Now the Big Bad N Man is a horrible bully ruthlessly ejecting weeping writers from the room.

Wow! Wow! What an about face? Makes one wonder. This is all getting stranger and stranger.

I really think James should chime in here and ask the same question.

Thanks for prodding me into reading more closely.

Like Karen says, everyone, check carefully! Read everything before making a decision. Read closely. Use wisdom.

Wilde_at_heart said:

Congratulations and thanks for sharing your positive experience. However, this thread isn't about 'pitch groups' per se, but about one particular organisation hosting one particular set of conferences/pitch sessions - Algonkian.

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Thank you, thank you. Yes, thanks for the clarification ...

To everyone:

I'm sorry for getting so excited and agitated in my post to Francis. I was carried away by the total contradiction evident in his postings. It really shocked me, and it made me feel manipulated by him, and lied to.

My apologies. Too much coffee, too much contradictory information.

B

It's my understanding that Algonkian Writer Conferences and NYC Pitch-and-Shop are put on by the same person/group.

James D. Macdonald said:

It's my understanding that Algonkian Writer Conferences and NYC Pitch-and-Shop are put on by the same person/group.

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I am not going to engage in this any further. I am sorry I was led into this argument. I never meant for this to happen. I came here looking for community, I expressed my views. I know from watching these threads what is going to happen now.

I'm leaving for another place. I hate this kind of bickering nonsense, and with people who claim the truth while totally contradicting themselves. And I'm not interested in allowing my stated experience to further become a springboard for bashing and insulting anyone or for unsupported innuendo of any kind. What difference does it make if some entity on the Internet claims to have had a rough experience with whoever? That's unfortunate, sad, and so forth. All the world weeps. But that has nothing to do with my experience or my group's experience at the NYC event. Neff isn't a virus that infects complex events that involve multiple personalities and workshops and such, emerging like some kind of evil God and sending people weeping into the hallways. This is so ridiculous! I DIDN'T EVEN INTERACT WITH HIM!!! HELLO!!! IS ANYONE LISTENING??? How many alleged victims can we haul from the muck of the AW bottoms?

And as far as that Algonkian Park thing, there are at least six posters who posted a very different experience, but I don't care! I really don't care. I didn't go to that and don't intend to.

My God, enough. Goodbye.

Sock puppet # 92 signing off!

BabsWriter said:

I am not going to engage in this any further. I am sorry I was led into this argument. I never meant for this to happen. I came here looking for community, I expressed my views. I know from watching these threads what is going to happen now.

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Um, I'm pretty sure he was just trying to clarify whether your experience was relevant (i.e. related to the organization for this thread) or whether it belonged in another thread. He was indicating that he thought that it was relevant here after all.

I'm trying to figure out how you're interpreting that as bashing or bickering, but I'm coming up blank :???:

BabsWriter said:

This is so ridiculous! I DIDN'T EVEN INTERACT WITH HIM!!! HELLO!!! IS ANYONE LISTENING???

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Um, ONE person asked if you had been sent here by him, since the person asking had, in fact himself, when he first arrived -- and wondered if you had a similar experience.

Youve made it very clear the answer is 'No', and as far as I've seen, no one else has mentioned it -- so this puzzles me as much as your response to Jim thinking that your experience belonged in this thread, rather than one for a different organization.

I should let this post die until next year when another question will be asked and sock puppets arise to defend, but I take issue with a couple of jabs at myself:

1) Sorry babswriter if I changed my mind over the last three years as I learned about writing and publishing. Your world must be very nice and orderly where preconceived notions never change. Writing stories must be easy as you never have written yourself into a corner and had to back up and rethink the plot. (You might want to stay off the internet in general as you will find lots of people who change their minds over the years and it might lead you to think you are being lied to or misled)

2) I was a sock puppet when I came here. I have the email asking myself and a few others to come and defend the conference. I won't post it here (unless the moderators give their blessing w/ names and things redacted.) I will happily send it to Uncle Jim or a moderator who could confirm what I am saying if you'd accept that.

3) I take issue at quite a few things that Babswriter had written about me, but I have thick skin and don't want to perpetuate this back and forth. Leave it to say that the bull dogging will not lead me away from piping in when someone asks about this conference or others.

4) I did ask if you had been sent here (Babswriter) due to the werewolf knock in your first comment. Since you later went back and re-read the first post, I can only assume that you had been sent. You never answered the question, but the way you referenced going back to the first post pretty much cements that the only way you could have known what I pitched was to have been told.

I do wish you luck on your novel and whatever forum you find yourself in.

Babswriter, you've said you've left this forum, so I don't know if you'll catch my response.

My previous comment began with the disclaimer 'in general...' Since writing that, I have blown two hours of my life reading the AW Algonkian and Pitch NYC threads, plus related entries at Writer Beware and Making Light.

That research has unearthed more questions than it answered. I have seen some indications of threats, sockpuppets, and grandiose promises. I have seen attendees who countered with their positive experiences.

Mr. Neff has a good pitch , and may indeed be running workshops helpful to some attendees. I don't think his business is a scam or scheme - but I also question its utility to many lower-skilled writers, and the implicit promises in his marketing materials. Much of the information that his conferences offer does appear to be available for free or at lower costs elsewhere. The NY conference experience could be amazing for the right people at the right budget. But other industry conferences can offer similar perks, too.

It appears that to get the most out of the Algonkian, etc. experience, writers should be more aware of those initial skill and experience thresholds. There simply does not seem to be much vetting of entrants, beyond their ability to pay the attendance fees. I see mention of homework and pre-conference contact, but not much in the way of 'we are sorry, but you may not be ready for this.'

I am not the best audience for this: I am far more likely to attend a genre conference than a 'literary' one, as I have no intention of being published in the latter field.

I wasted a couple of hours also going through my posts. I saw my transformation from neophyte to less-neophyte. (I certainly wouldn't say I was trying to confuse/ mislead anyone. considering it took months of transformation, I'd say it was more of a gradual realization)

I'm glad that Uncle Jim, HapiSofi, Stacia, Mac et al could forgive some of my transgressions. It was an eye opening experience and I love you guys for it.

There are many conferences that are worth attending IMHO:
Viable Paradise
Uncle Orson's
David Farland
Paradise Lost
Taos Toolbox (?)
Clarion
Odyssey (Wish I had the 6 weeks)

Uncle Jim pointed out to me: Get a group of writers together and you'll have a good time. (bad paraphrase). So you can even get something from the algonkian model, but you are better off looking at the other ones above or asking in Bewares here about something.

I am here if anyone wants to hear of my experience. I will still chime in. Any claims I made I can prove. I was a sock puppet who out-grew his sock.

Happy new years to all and to all a good night!

BabsWriter said:

Thank you, thank you. Yes, thanks for the clarification ...

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If that's the case then I'm baffled at why you're taking issue with anything in this thread, since it appears to be completely unrelated to anything you personally dealt with.