How much would YOU pay for a fantasy map?

Gale Haut · Jan 23, 2013

kenebaker said:
You have a point, Gale about the rendered vs hand-drawn comment. Although you did get me thinking - my chief requirement for the brief is that the map needs to translate well to the Kindle screen. The map you supplied is beautiful and I would love it as my desktop background, but it would never work on a kindle screen - not if you want to see the names of cities on the low resolution of the kindle.

For me, the map has to be clear, non-detailed, easy to read. That is why on the overall map, you will see that I have not included any geographical areas -no mountains, rivers, terrain etc. This map is going to be the simplest of lines, displayed on the simplest of screens. A map like this would probably translate well.

Thoughts?

It's pretty clear at this point that you'll want a "rendered map." If you already have an outline of the map including where you want labels and important geographic elements, you should be able to commission a map within your price range.

As for how detailed an image in an ebook should be, that's a completely different discussion. There are so many different ways to read ebooks now that are all gaining popularity. And epaper screens actually have a pretty good resolution. You should take a look at this.

Filigree · Jan 23, 2013

I don't know how a native Kindle does it, but my Samsung tablet lets me re-size images and dive in for very close looks. Complex maps and diagrams are no problem.

kenebaker · Jan 23, 2013

Gale Haut said:
As for how detailed an image in an ebook should be, that's a completely different discussion. There are so many different ways to read ebooks now that are all gaining popularity. And epaper screens actually have a pretty good resolution. You should take a look at this.

The example you provided seems to translate well. That is not the case though from what I can see for many Amazon fantasy series. If you have a Kindle, try download a sample chapter of George RR Martin's books, or Terry Brooks. Horrible, awful maps that you cannot even see if you zoom in on the Kindle.

Filigree said:
I don't know how a native Kindle does it, but my Samsung tablet lets me re-size images and dive in for very close looks. Complex maps and diagrams are no problem.

Yah, any tablet (ipad, galaxy tab, Kindle fire, nexus etc) will be able to have a super resolution and display the images perfectly. I am working from the lowest common denominator here which is the Kindle's 600 × 800 pixels screen. This ties into Gale's earlier comment - screens are getting better, but I don't want to exclude users just because new technology has just been released (for example, the new Kindle paperwhite has a resolution of 758 × 1024 )

K.L. Bennett · Jan 23, 2013

I just wanted to clarify that the price range I stated upthread was for an "unprofessional"/part-time/whatever-we're-calling-it artist to recreate a pretty basic map from my already somewhat detailed, but incredibly unsophisticated designs. I wouldn't expect a hand drawn masterpiece that took 20+ hours to create; I know I can't afford something like that, and I honestly don't need it. The commissioned map would still just be for my own reference in writing, not necessarily for publication.

Gale Haut · Jan 24, 2013

Sometimes I can come off a bit gruff online... nothing like me in real life. I just want to reiterate that I was not criticizing anyone's style here. All of the maps that you all shared are each nice regardless of the way they were made. I was only trying to be helpful.

kenebaker · Jan 24, 2013

Gale Haut said:
Sometimes I can come off a bit gruff online... nothing like me in real life. I just want to reiterate that I was not criticizing anyone's style here. All of the maps that you all shared are each nice regardless of the way they were made. I was only trying to be helpful.

Don't stress, you brought up some solid points - especially about the rendered map suggestion. Everyone has their personal style for maps - whether they use them for their own reference like K.L Bennett does or for their readers.

We use a multiplicity of devices to read, so whatever image I have must translate well to low res screens, but also to high res screens (retina! yikes) so make sure that everyone can see the image clearly without having to pan and zoom to experience it.

And the discussion also got me wondering - should I offer a colour map that can look nice on a colour screen, but also translates well across to the kindles 16 shades of grey screen.

Arrrgh, if only the budget was as limitless as all the good ideas in this conversation!

Gale Haut · Jan 24, 2013

kenebaker said:
Don't stress, you brought up some solid points - especially about the rendered map suggestion. Everyone has their personal style for maps - whether they use them for their own reference like K.L Bennett does or for their readers.

We use a multiplicity of devices to read, so whatever image I have must translate well to low res screens, but also to high res screens (retina! yikes) so make sure that everyone can see the image clearly without having to pan and zoom to experience it.

And the discussion also got me wondering - should I offer a colour map that can look nice on a colour screen, but also translates well across to the kindles 16 shades of grey screen.

Arrrgh, if only the budget was as limitless as all the good ideas in this conversation!

I can tell you as a reader that when I personally read hard copies of books I often reference maps by flipping back and forth, especially when the map is relevant to the plot like in the GRRM series you mentioned. When I read digital books, I don't reference the maps because on my ereader it would be a hassle to flip between the bookmarks. I'm not sure how important a map would be for an ebook only release, but it's definitely a question worth considering.

kenebaker · Jan 24, 2013

Gale Haut said:
I can tell you as a reader that when I personally read hard copies of books I often reference maps by flipping back and forth, especially when the map is relevant to the plot like in the GRRM series you mentioned. When I read digital books, I don't reference the maps because on my ereader it would be a hassle to flip between the bookmarks. I'm not sure how important a map would be for an ebook only release, but it's definitely a question worth considering.

That's a worthwhile question and one I don't have the answer to. For me, its going back to the basics - making the map easy to access and read once accessed. Do you include a hyperlink at the bottom of the e-page? Do you include the map more than once, or different components in each part of the novel? A side-swipe that pulls up the map any time in the novel? I don't think e-devices have matured enough to figure that out (although I would love the idea of a side-swipe map).

All I know is that I would rather include a map, than leave the reader alone to her own devices. And yes, that is a pun. It's going to be a long day

LBlankenship · Jan 24, 2013

kenebaker said:
And the discussion also got me wondering - should I offer a colour map that can look nice on a colour screen, but also translates well across to the kindles 16 shades of grey screen.

I made a color version of my map, but I converted it to black and white (with minimal screens) because after trying out a few greyscale conversion processes, I realized it was just going to turn into an unreadable swamp.

So the colors went, the background texture went.

re: where to put the map, it would be awesome if there could be a little floating icon box on the e-reader screen, that you could tap open into a little text box. You could put the map in there, or the index of characters, whatever was appropriate for the story. If the icon box was small enough to fit in the page margins, it wouldn't get in the way...

And on a side note, someone posted a question on one of my blog tour posts: when are ebook covers going animated?

Holy crap, there goes my budget again...

DeleyanLee · Jan 24, 2013

As a reader of Fantasy for many decades, I can say that I've never noticed whether there was a map in the book or not. I take your word for it that they're there, but I've never noticed.

For my own Fantasy novels, I've never made a map. Never thought about one. I figure if there's no map, no one can say that I got travel time/distance wrong as long as I'm consistent within the words.

But should someone decide I need a map, I have a friend who loves drawing them, just for fun. (She's a semi-professional artist in that she's done it but doesn't do it now, but might again in the future.) For the price of a nice dinner and a few visits to a favorite coffee joint where most of the sketches would be made and discussed, I'd have a map and full repro rights.

In my experience, that's the expensive part--not the paying for the picture, but the acquisition of all repro rights. Artwork is relatively cheap in comparison.

Gale Haut · Jan 24, 2013

DeleyanLee said:
As a reader of Fantasy for many decades, I can say that I've never noticed whether there was a map in the book or not. I take your word for it that they're there, but I've never noticed.

For my own Fantasy novels, I've never made a map. Never thought about one. I figure if there's no map, no one can say that I got travel time/distance wrong as long as I'm consistent within the words.

But should someone decide I need a map, I have a friend who loves drawing them, just for fun. (She's a semi-professional artist in that she's done it but doesn't do it now, but might again in the future.) For the price of a nice dinner and a few visits to a favorite coffee joint where most of the sketches would be made and discussed, I'd have a map and full repro rights.

In my experience, that's the expensive part--not the paying for the picture, but the acquisition of all repro rights. Artwork is relatively cheap in comparison.

Your friend is very good to you.

kenebaker · Jan 25, 2013

DeleyanLee said:
As a reader of Fantasy for many decades, I can say that I've never noticed whether there was a map in the book or not. I take your word for it that they're there, but I've never noticed.

For my own Fantasy novels, I've never made a map. Never thought about one. I figure if there's no map, no one can say that I got travel time/distance wrong as long as I'm consistent within the words.

Ha ha, just don't include a scale

I get your point about not needing a map - but I do know many readers who enjoy that element. When I read fantasy books, I use the map for basic orientation. I will spent a minute or two looking at it, but then proceed with the rest of the story. I have friends who will plot the course of the novel with a dotted line, ha ha, and there are those of my friends who would only say something if the map was NOT included.

On a personal level, a map is a special thing for me. It is the crystallization of the world - my world - onto a piece of paper. The words of the story are powerful things, but for the most part they are transparent. The maps somehow makes it more real for me. I cannot erase it, I cannot change it to conveniently fit the new story arc.

I have built it and now I must live in it.

aibrean · Jan 25, 2013

Full: http://talesoforinda.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/orindamap.png

I made mine in Illustrator from scratch (it's vector so it resizes to any size). It took probably around 20-40 minutes, but since I made it myself and I wrote the book, I didn't have to go back and forth on figuring out location positions. If you were to do a rough guide it would really help whoever you hire and cost less.

kenebaker · Jan 25, 2013

aibrean said:
I made mine in Illustrator from scratch (it's vector so it resizes to any size). It took probably around 20-40 minutes, but since I made it myself and I wrote the book, I didn't have to go back and forth on figuring out location positions. If you were to do a rough guide it would really help whoever you hire and cost lest.

Looking good! Yup, I have done the entire map in visio already, so all the artist needs to do is take it from there and beautify it.

Let's see how it goes. I may have something to show you guys in a few days

Cross fingers.

Alessandra Kelley · Jan 26, 2013

kenebaker said:
I have done the entire map in visio already, so all the artist needs to do is take it from there and beautify it.

This is like saying I have done the entire outline already, so all the writer needs to do is take it from there and write it beautifully.

kenebaker · Jan 26, 2013

Alessandra Kelley said:
This is like saying I have done the entire outline already, so all the writer needs to do is take it from there and write it beautifully.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I am looking for value-add in this discussion, not a misrepresentation of what I mean when I say beautifying the map.

Gale Haut · Jan 26, 2013

kenebaker said:
Please don't put words in my mouth. I am looking for value-add in this discussion, not a misrepresentation of what I mean when I say beautifying the map.

Part of your original intent was to strike "a balance between affordability while honouring the value of an artist's work." A vet artist here just told you your language diminishes the value of the work you've already commissioned, and considering how valuable you painted this element to be to you...

On a personal level, a map is a special thing for me. It is the crystallization of the world - my world - onto a piece of paper. The words of the story are powerful things, but for the most part they are transparent. The maps somehow makes it more real for me. I cannot erase it, I cannot change it to conveniently fit the new story arc.

I hope you take her reaction to heart.

But congrats on finding someone to work with. I hope that things run smoothly for you and you can share the finished product with us when it's done.

Rhubix · Feb 10, 2013

Alessandra Kelley said:
This is like saying I have done the entire outline already, so all the writer needs to do is take it from there and write it beautifully.

From a commercial artist (by your signature) this comment surprises me.

In the design department I was given the art directors sketches of characters to clean, rotate, and prepare for production.
As an FX artist I was given a style guide to match the directors vision.
As an animator I receive designers characters to create a story.

The definition of commercial art is taking other peoples ideas and rendering them as publish ready products.
Having a mock-up of an intended idea is incredibly helpful to any artist that is trying to create another persons vision. Otherwise we just scratch around in the dark until something sticks- waiting our time and client money.

To suggest that this would somehow degrade the integrity of the artist is abserd.

p.s -maps are fun- looking forward to seeing the end product

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/321/8/8/map_by_rhubix-d33288g.jpg
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/106/a/0/rpg_map_by_rhubix-d4wctim.jpg

Alessandra Kelley · Feb 10, 2013

Rhubix said:
From a commercial artist (by your signature) this comment surprises me.

In the design department I was given the art directors sketches of characters to clean, rotate, and prepare for production.
As an FX artist I was given a style guide to match the directors vision.
As an animator I receive designers characters to create a story.

The definition of commercial art is taking other peoples ideas and rendering them as publish ready products.
Having a mock-up of an intended idea is incredibly helpful to any artist that is trying to create another persons vision. Otherwise we just scratch around in the dark until something sticks- waiting our time and client money.

To suggest that this would somehow degrade the integrity of the artist is abserd.

p.s -maps are fun- looking forward to seeing the end product

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/321/8/8/map_by_rhubix-d33288g.jpg
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/106/a/0/rpg_map_by_rhubix-d4wctim.jpg

I meant no denigration of mock-ups or preparatory sketches, which are of invaluable aid to illustrators just as outlines are of use to writers.

I was hoping to illuminate the work involved in making a finished work of visual art in terms that a writer would be familiar with.

(And in the interests of full disclosure, I am not a commercial artist, I am a classically trained fine artist who has done some commercial work. It is one of the reasons I appreciate so much the contributions of experienced designers to these discussions.)

Rhubix · Feb 13, 2013

I was pretty grumpy when I wrote that, Alessandra Kelley - Hope it didn't come across too much >.<

In an effort to steer back out of grumpyville- a quick note on map making.
In general, people try to simplify and create patterns - so often "random" coasts will end up looking very uniform.
A quick method of getting really high resolution coast lines is to use rust patterns or peeling paint.
Easy-peasy

Ken · Feb 14, 2013

... make sure to ask for a reference or two before commissioning an artist.

EMaree · Feb 14, 2013

Ken said:
... make sure to ask for a reference or two before commissioning an artist.

Yup, or just check out their online portfolio. Personally I don't commission anyone without spending a lot of time looking at their portfolio (whether it's their official site or a free site like Tumblr, Blogger, Deviantart etc).

kenebaker · Feb 16, 2013

Okay, the map is ready for public consumption, although a fair amount of the brief has changed as a result of some of the questions and comments in this thread:

1) I originally was going for straight black-and-white, but because you guys also mentioned enjoying reading on a tablet, I changed the map requirement to full colour.

2) I kept the requirement for the map to look legible on a Kindle - working off the Kindle's lower resolution screen as the lowest common denominator. The finished map translates exceptionally well - the text is readable, the images (mountains, borders, cities) are clear. The resolution is good enough that it can also be viewed on a high end tablet without any distortion, and even the opportunity to zoom in. It was a fine balance getting that right.

3) In the discussion, the consensus for the cost of a map was around $100 - this was based on my initial image and the requirements I mentioned (black and white, very little detail etc) and based on the comments of your own personal experience.

I ended up paying more for the map. My requirements had changed - broadening the initial scope; I moved to full colour, had a large amount of detail added (e.g. mountain ranges, a beautiful compass) and moved through three iterations of the map. I am extremely happy with the illustrator's work, and I have no doubts that it was the right decision for me. I also had the opportunity to work with someone who is incredibly talented and professional, so that in itself was another benefit of the project.

In this thread, we talked about what the concept of a map means to fantasy fans. There are those who examine the map once or twice throughout the course of the novel. There are others who track the course of the novel along the map in real time, and then there are arguments that the map is not really necessary at all.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. At least most of the time

Me, I believe that every fantasy novel needs a good map or three. I love having a visual representation of the author's world. To each his own

You can see the map below. I am very proud of the illustrator's accomplishment. The original image that I had made was the canvas, and he took it and created a painting. I hope you enjoy the map and I am confident that my upcoming novel will be all the better for it.

You can find the full resolution image here, including the original mock-up I made, and the iterations as we moved toward the finished work. The illustrator's name is Rudi Benade and it was a pleasure to work with him.

S. L. Saboviec · Feb 16, 2013

It's lovely!

Gale Haut · Feb 16, 2013

It looks great.

How much would *YOU* pay for a fantasy map?

waxing digital artistic

Mildly Disturbing

Master of Meh!

A floopy flolloper

waxing digital artistic

Master of Meh!

waxing digital artistic

Master of Meh!

VPXV 4EVA

Writing Anarchist

waxing digital artistic

Master of Meh!

Author, Designer, Imaginative Being

Master of Meh!

Sophipygian

Master of Meh!

waxing digital artistic

New kid, critique harshly!

Sophipygian

New kid, critique harshly!

a demon for tea

Master of Meh!

practical experience, FTW

waxing digital artistic

How much would YOU pay for a fantasy map?