It was not my intention to insult anyone. I just was trying to say that it is great that it has been a free site for so long. Even if people decided to donate money, it has still been a free site. Not looking for a fight or anything. Sorry if I offended you.
The Duotrope Thread
- Thread starter Project Deadlight
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It was not my intention to insult anyone. I just was trying to say that it is great that it has been a free site for so long. Even if people decided to donate money, it has still been a free site. Not looking for a fight or anything. Sorry if I offended you.
There are a lot of things I can't afford. That doesn't mean they're overpriced - it just means I can't afford them.
And for the record, I was a single parent, on and off welfare, so yeah - I understand scraping for pennies. I still don't see where this cost, particularly when available on a monthly basis, is exorbitant.
And for the record, I was a single parent, on and off welfare, so yeah - I understand scraping for pennies. I still don't see where this cost, particularly when available on a monthly basis, is exorbitant.
But surely you see that there is a difference between cost and value, no? Again, that's where I think a lot of the disappointment is coming from—not just the increase in price, the decrease in value. They're not just charging more for the service, they're changing the service by instituting a barrier to entry.
In other words, to me it's not like they're just charging more for my cookie. They're taking my cookie away. That makes me a sad panda.
(Apologies for all of the junk food analogies; this diet is killing me. At least this one didn't have poop in it.)
I suppose it comes down to personal choice. I've donated to Duotrope for years. I don't have a problem paying for their service, but $50 is too steep, at least for what I get out of it. I'll do the research on my own and keep my money for postage, IRCs, etc.
There's an assumption that the quality of service will decrease. It could also be assumed that those who are paying for the services would be more vigilant in reporting than those who get it free because they want to keep or increase that value.
Yeah, it could, but there's no proof that paying customers will be any more vigilant in reporting than non-paying customers. Frankly, that's just an assumption on their part. And the more I think about it, the more I think that their saying that is just an excuse for defending their new pricing model.
Look, I think any business deserves to make a profit. Duotrope is no different. I've pimped them for years and supported them with donations when I could. But I'm not gonna pimp them anymore. I'm concerned about their database. I don't think they'll be able to do the job they did before and I can't recommend them to anyone, especially new writers, given that concern.
The pricing model they've come up with reeks of wrong. If they change it by reducing the cost to a reasonable figure, or allowing advertising to cover some of their costs with an opt out for peeps willing to pay more to avoid the ads, then I'll consider using them again. But for now I think what we're dealing with at Duotrope is a small group of people who are writers with good database skills, who don't know a damn thing about pricing or marketing.
I thank them for what they've done in the past and wish them well.
I agree. There's an interesting post on the Missouri Review about this.
http://www.missourireview.com/tmr-blog/author/michael/
Thanks for posting the link, Lady Macbeth. I found his post useful and gave me food for thought...
The editor not only reiterates the concern about their new subscription service but also raises the question about Duotrope's added value.
I'm now left wondering if and whether the people behind Duotrope have thought this through sufficiently. The more I read, the more I suspect they haven't...
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As im neither a prolific writer or submitter (or AW poster) I only use duotrope around 10 times per year and so wont be subscribing. I dont see how losing people like me (who always reported submissions) is going to make the stats more accurate.
Aside from that, even if i was a heavy user and felt the price represented good value, I would be hesitant to hand over my money to a site who:
1) I dont know who runs
2) By its own admission runs at a loss
3) Wont give any indication of what its financial goals are.
What is to stop them saying in two months time that not enough people subscribed, the site isnt financially viable, and shutting it down?
Aside from that, even if i was a heavy user and felt the price represented good value, I would be hesitant to hand over my money to a site who:
1) I dont know who runs
2) By its own admission runs at a loss
3) Wont give any indication of what its financial goals are.
What is to stop them saying in two months time that not enough people subscribed, the site isnt financially viable, and shutting it down?
Yes, thanks for posting that link, Lady MacBeth. I didn't know about [clmp]. That looks pretty good.
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Ditto. Every time I send a postal submission it costs me anywhere from $2 to $6. Fifty dollars would cover (on average) ten postal subs to markets like Fantasy & Science Fiction, Interzone, or Woman's World (all markets that only accept subs by mail). I only have so much money to spend. If given the choice between a year's subscription to Duotrope or ten postal submissions, I'll choose the postal subs. At the very least it will light a fire under me to write stories to send out.
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I don't think anyone has to justify why they can't pay for this service. No one has to cite their personal financial issues, regardless of how much money they make per year, or how much money we 'think' they make. Even those who look like they are 'sitting pretty' could be on the verge of bankruptcy - again, it's all personal.
So if someone says they can't afford it, that's all that needs be said. I especially hate it when someone says oh it's a cup of coffee or latte each day. Some of us make instant, at home.
I sell a few stories a year. What I do with my money is my business, and I am not subscribing to Duotrope. The site considers me an outlier anyhow, which makes me sort of laugh.
So if someone says they can't afford it, that's all that needs be said. I especially hate it when someone says oh it's a cup of coffee or latte each day. Some of us make instant, at home.
I sell a few stories a year. What I do with my money is my business, and I am not subscribing to Duotrope. The site considers me an outlier anyhow, which makes me sort of laugh.
Anyone know of listings comparable to Ralan for other genres? I find Ralan sufficient for SFF subs, but occasionally I write something that's not SFF and I'm always sort of at a loss as to where to send it.
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Agreed. Which is why, even if I agreed with the cost, I would not hand over a lump $50 sum.
This means the cost to me is $60 pa.
It is an internet venture. Anything goes. As you say, we have no idea who runs the site. We only know their stated intentions, and this change is very abrupt. As could be shutting down.
Another update from Duotrope. This time, it's on what they refer to as 'The State of the Stats'.
Link: https://duotrope.com/notes_stats.aspx
I'm not a quant person so I have no idea whether this is an accurate (or near accurate) depiction of the future reliability of the stats.
Link: https://duotrope.com/notes_stats.aspx
I'm not a quant person so I have no idea whether this is an accurate (or near accurate) depiction of the future reliability of the stats.
Their assertion is based on the assumption that most of the people who used to donate are going to become subscribers.
I used to donate but will not subscribe at $50 and I know a number of others who are in the same boat.
They have no choice but to claim things are going exactly as planned, unless they actually decide to reverse their decision or lower their rates, which is looking unlikely at this point.
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Of the folks leaving Duotrope, did you do your own excel sheet, or did you download one somewhere? I have one I set up on my own, as I'm excel-competent...but my abilities stop at competence. If there's something better out there, I'd love to see it.
(Also, I noticed talk on the other thread about pulling old stats. I've been considering doing the same, right before they officially go paid. I put my stats up there for the enlightenment of other writers, not for Duotrope to use for profit. But yes, in case you were wondering, I happen to have my panties in a wad over this whole thing.)
(Also, I noticed talk on the other thread about pulling old stats. I've been considering doing the same, right before they officially go paid. I put my stats up there for the enlightenment of other writers, not for Duotrope to use for profit. But yes, in case you were wondering, I happen to have my panties in a wad over this whole thing.)
This is what i use, and wholeheartedly recommend: http://www.spacejock.com/Sonar3.html
It's very easy to learn, and allows as much detail about stories and markets as you want.
Like alex, i donated previously to duo, but won't be subscribing.
Also, if you're wondering where else to go to search for markets, don't forget the SHORT FICTION MARKETS sticky in the Short Fiction room. It focuses on sites that are markets lists/databases, and there are a heap out there.
Here's a link: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212041
(Some of the links there may be dead; if so, please let me know so i can correct them)
((If you know of other market lists that aren't in the sticky, please let me know so i can add them))
Here's a link: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212041
(Some of the links there may be dead; if so, please let me know so i can correct them)
((If you know of other market lists that aren't in the sticky, please let me know so i can add them))
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Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying.
And there I was thinking that they had some kind of fancy statistical modelling going on behind closed doors.
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I don't know what most of that means. It seems like a lot of cheering without any real specifics.
So, pretty much what Alex said
I'm trying not to read their posts as "we'll only be losing the useless people, so our stats will be fine", but I'm not having much success with that.
Maybe all the annoying "if you're SERIOUS WRITER you'll pay" people are just putting me in a ticked off frame of mind
I'd like to see that line of BS leave the conversation, too.
I used to donate too. Initially, the $50 fee turned me off. Now it's Duotrope's response to this whole thing. What kind of business doesn't care if it loses customers?