Er, all the above was complete and we have evolved to this task on your checklist. Hence we are no longer arguing since it is senseless to debate agreement.
I am glad I was able to help you see the logical approach.
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Polygamist raid
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Er, all the above was complete and we have evolved to this task on your checklist. Hence we are no longer arguing since it is senseless to debate agreement.
I am glad I was able to help you see the logical approach.
Kind of like the call might have been placed by someone at the authorities request so the authorities would have an excuse to go nosing around.
Sarpedon
Banned
It is true that there have been cases of false complaints being made as a pretext for police action.
If anyone is interested in reading a memoir by someone who escaped from the group, check out Carolyn Jessop's "Escape":
80 of 86 people found the following review helpful:
Stranger Than Fiction, November 26, 2007
By Tim Challies (Oakville, Ontario) - See all my reviews
Escape is undoubtedly one of the most bizarre memoirs you are ever likely to read. It is small wonder that it quickly made its mark on the New York Times list of bestsellers. Written by Carolyn Jessop, a woman who was born into the Fundamentalist Lattery Day Saints (FLDS), the book describes what it is like to live as part of this cult which is distinctive primarily for its beliefs about polygamy. The FLDS, which emerged in the 1930s as a fundamentalist offshoot of the Mormon church, holds that God has ordained polygamy and not only that, but that it is a requirement for anyone who wishes to attain the highest level of heaven. Most men eventually have at least three wives, with more prominent members of the cult holding far more than that. Some of the leaders are believed to have fifty, sixty, or even one hundred wives. Women are generally placed with husbands at the whim of the cult's leader (who claims to receive divine guidance about which women belong with certain men). There are around 10,000 adherents to this cult living in the United States today.
Jessop was born into a family that eventually had two wives but one that, compared to others in the community, seemed almost normal. When she was just eighteen, though, she was assigned to become the fourth wife of a fifty-five year old man. While she was married to him he added two more wives and later went on to add five or six more. Through fifteen years of marriage, Jessop gave birth to eight children. Through her marriage she suffered constant abuse at the hands of her husband, his other wives, and other members of the community. Though for much of her life she believed the claims of the FLDS religion, she eventually began to see through its hypocrisy and decided that, for the good of herself and her children, she would need to escape from it.
Escape from FLDS is not easy. Their tight-knit communities have immense power and wealth. Even the local police officers are members of the cult and will not support a wife who seeks to emancipate herself or her family. Until Jessop, no woman had managed to escape the clutches of the cult with all of her children. Jessop, though, ran from the cult and fought against it in the courts, eventually winning full custody of her eight children. This was no small victory. In fact, it was worth telling in a book.
While the book is a definite page-turner (as both my wife and I can attest) it is not always easy to read. The descriptions of life in the FLDS are at times horrific. There were several areas that I found particularly interesting.
Jessop is frank (though not vulgar or graphic) in her discussions about sexuality within her plural marriage and well she needs to be, for sex plays a strange but crucial role in these marriages. Though the women generally hate their husbands, they still want to have sex with him--not for the sake of love or intimacy, but because sex is power. The wife who gains sexual favor with her husband is the wife who can use him to further her own desires. Often these desires pit her against the other wives. It is an odd situation where wives who hate their husband seek to have sex (which they hate) with their husband (whom they hate) so they can further their hate-filled plans towards each other. So much, then, for the idealized content of "sister wives" that the cult seeks to portray to the world.
This book and its description of life within plural marriage shows that marriage--marriage as given to us in the Bible--serves as protection for women. When people ignore biblically-ordained marriage, women immediately lose the protection it affords. They quickly become subservient to men. The women always lose out.
Perhaps the most shocking thing to remember while reading the book is that it takes place in twenty-first century America. This is not fundamentalist Islam in the Middle East; this is not the earliest days of Mormonism. This is happening in the very heart of America--women are treated like cattle, used to breed children and bought, sold and traded like so many goods. In America. It is almost unbelievable.
While the FLDS is hardly an accurate representation of average religion and bears little resemblance to Christianity or even to Mormonism, this portrayal is increasingly what people think of when they think about religion. More and more people are becoming convinced that all religion tends towards extremism and a book like this may just fuel those fires. This story is awful to read, but it is written well and is for some reason quite fascinating.
(from a review at Amazon.com)
80 of 86 people found the following review helpful:
By Tim Challies (Oakville, Ontario) - See all my reviews
Escape is undoubtedly one of the most bizarre memoirs you are ever likely to read. It is small wonder that it quickly made its mark on the New York Times list of bestsellers. Written by Carolyn Jessop, a woman who was born into the Fundamentalist Lattery Day Saints (FLDS), the book describes what it is like to live as part of this cult which is distinctive primarily for its beliefs about polygamy. The FLDS, which emerged in the 1930s as a fundamentalist offshoot of the Mormon church, holds that God has ordained polygamy and not only that, but that it is a requirement for anyone who wishes to attain the highest level of heaven. Most men eventually have at least three wives, with more prominent members of the cult holding far more than that. Some of the leaders are believed to have fifty, sixty, or even one hundred wives. Women are generally placed with husbands at the whim of the cult's leader (who claims to receive divine guidance about which women belong with certain men). There are around 10,000 adherents to this cult living in the United States today.
Jessop was born into a family that eventually had two wives but one that, compared to others in the community, seemed almost normal. When she was just eighteen, though, she was assigned to become the fourth wife of a fifty-five year old man. While she was married to him he added two more wives and later went on to add five or six more. Through fifteen years of marriage, Jessop gave birth to eight children. Through her marriage she suffered constant abuse at the hands of her husband, his other wives, and other members of the community. Though for much of her life she believed the claims of the FLDS religion, she eventually began to see through its hypocrisy and decided that, for the good of herself and her children, she would need to escape from it.
Escape from FLDS is not easy. Their tight-knit communities have immense power and wealth. Even the local police officers are members of the cult and will not support a wife who seeks to emancipate herself or her family. Until Jessop, no woman had managed to escape the clutches of the cult with all of her children. Jessop, though, ran from the cult and fought against it in the courts, eventually winning full custody of her eight children. This was no small victory. In fact, it was worth telling in a book.
While the book is a definite page-turner (as both my wife and I can attest) it is not always easy to read. The descriptions of life in the FLDS are at times horrific. There were several areas that I found particularly interesting.
Jessop is frank (though not vulgar or graphic) in her discussions about sexuality within her plural marriage and well she needs to be, for sex plays a strange but crucial role in these marriages. Though the women generally hate their husbands, they still want to have sex with him--not for the sake of love or intimacy, but because sex is power. The wife who gains sexual favor with her husband is the wife who can use him to further her own desires. Often these desires pit her against the other wives. It is an odd situation where wives who hate their husband seek to have sex (which they hate) with their husband (whom they hate) so they can further their hate-filled plans towards each other. So much, then, for the idealized content of "sister wives" that the cult seeks to portray to the world.
This book and its description of life within plural marriage shows that marriage--marriage as given to us in the Bible--serves as protection for women. When people ignore biblically-ordained marriage, women immediately lose the protection it affords. They quickly become subservient to men. The women always lose out.
Perhaps the most shocking thing to remember while reading the book is that it takes place in twenty-first century America. This is not fundamentalist Islam in the Middle East; this is not the earliest days of Mormonism. This is happening in the very heart of America--women are treated like cattle, used to breed children and bought, sold and traded like so many goods. In America. It is almost unbelievable.
While the FLDS is hardly an accurate representation of average religion and bears little resemblance to Christianity or even to Mormonism, this portrayal is increasingly what people think of when they think about religion. More and more people are becoming convinced that all religion tends towards extremism and a book like this may just fuel those fires. This story is awful to read, but it is written well and is for some reason quite fascinating.
(from a review at Amazon.com)
None of those are due process issues. Those are issues for trial. btw, you're saying that the complainant can't be produced, but that's because the FLDS people have her stashed away and won't let her out. So, let's say hypothetically the complainant is getting beaten every day. How can the state help her, if they can't even talk to her?
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You know, I'm sure that experience was traumatizing for a lot of the kids, but I imagine that they're being saved ten times the amount of emotional scars by getting out of that environment sooner rather than later.
You also seem to be ignoring what several other people have repeated a few times now: Over one hundred of the women left the compound voluntarily, of their own volition, when given the opportunity by the police.
This isn't about freedom of religion-- it's about a cult that's putting the welfare of children at risk.
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Just looking at the potential damage done to these women and children has inspired me to say- it's time to donate to the San Angelo, Texas CPS.
MLHernandez you have some fascinating tidbits to share with us, thank you so much. Have you thought about contacting anyone with the media?
Uh huh. If your children were being taken away by force, would you want to go with them?
betcha this one would.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24009286/
but i'm sure she's lying... you now, so the government can go in and violate these wonderful people's rights...
Joe270
Banned
SB~
Nah, I have absolutely no interest in speaking with the media. A few years ago when he story broke big CNN sent Anderson Cooper (my favorite silver fox, lol) and a ton of other reporters down to Eldorado and to their other compounds. They did a few days worth of shows that were very enlightening. Randy Mankin, the editor/owner/reporter of the local paper, The Eldorado Success, has done a lot over the years to get the story out of our area and into bigger Texas papers and even a few nationals.
And anyways, having the big media in E-town has been a HUGE hassle. The Catholic Church is located just a smidge down the road that leads to the compound so all week CNN and FOX news and other regional media have been parked in the church parking lot. My mom couldn't even get to Mass on Saturday evening. Jeez!
~Maria
Nah, I have absolutely no interest in speaking with the media. A few years ago when he story broke big CNN sent Anderson Cooper (my favorite silver fox, lol) and a ton of other reporters down to Eldorado and to their other compounds. They did a few days worth of shows that were very enlightening. Randy Mankin, the editor/owner/reporter of the local paper, The Eldorado Success, has done a lot over the years to get the story out of our area and into bigger Texas papers and even a few nationals.
And anyways, having the big media in E-town has been a HUGE hassle. The Catholic Church is located just a smidge down the road that leads to the compound so all week CNN and FOX news and other regional media have been parked in the church parking lot. My mom couldn't even get to Mass on Saturday evening. Jeez!
~Maria
Joe~
Unfortunately, you could be right. I'm just amazed by the number of kids and women they keep finding every day. They've got them hidden all over that ranch. Last night they found a guy hiding in the brush with some sort of "Item" of interest. They also found four more kids and an adult (don't know if it was a man or woman) hiding in a shop.
According to my Mom (queen of all things gossip) and the local paper, the FBI is now on the ranch...
Unfortunately, you could be right. I'm just amazed by the number of kids and women they keep finding every day. They've got them hidden all over that ranch. Last night they found a guy hiding in the brush with some sort of "Item" of interest. They also found four more kids and an adult (don't know if it was a man or woman) hiding in a shop.
According to my Mom (queen of all things gossip) and the local paper, the FBI is now on the ranch...
I'm going to go against popular sentiments, but before we jump on any bandwagons, perhaps we should ask ourselves a few questions.
While I share the revulsion for fixed marriages, and I certainly don’t support child rape, I worry that passion in this case might be overriding respect for the civil rights of many of our citizens. It’s sounds like a ham-handed approach to find one girl, based on a phone call.
If the raid had been conducted in a Muslim community, would there be as strong acceptance of the government’s actions? Would we dare intrude on their culture, where the role of women appears to have similarities? Wouldn’t we think about their rights being assaulted, especially if we housed those women and children in a “non-believer” church?
Our mainstream culture has devolved to the point that we blithely accept teen and even pre-teen sex to be acceptable as long as proper protection is used. If sex at that age is arguably okay, why is marriage a no-no? At what point does the age of the male become an issue? Isn’t it really the “eeeww” factor that’s the bigger problem for some people? What is the reasoning behind laws that determine the age of consent?
It’s not that uncommon to read about the eighty-year-old man, who marries a twenty-year-old woman and fathers a child. When the news media gets wind, they turn it into an evening news fluff-piece, and some bozo with a microphone and a hundred-dollar haircut, tells us how cute it is, especially if the man is a celebrity. Perhaps even a subtle joke about Viagra makes the cut.
Conversely, if a sixty-year-old woman marries a man in his twenties, and gives birth to a child, she’s admired for her ability to retain her youth and her sexuality. You go girl! Some might think it’s cute, but I personally find both situations revolting.
If the numbers I hear bandied about are correct, perhaps a third of the compound’s population was removed. Yes, I’m sure some of those folks were pleased to leave, but I can’t believe that everyone wanted to be forcibly taken from their homes, and I can’t believe all 400 were suspected of being a party to some crime. Did the women leave only so they could be with their children, or were they truly relieved to be freed of a repugnant situation?
Just as the government overreacted in Waco, I think they are overreacting today…and I find it strange that some of this forum’s most vocal advocates of civil rights are either silent, or are on the side of the mass breakup of family units.
While I share the revulsion for fixed marriages, and I certainly don’t support child rape, I worry that passion in this case might be overriding respect for the civil rights of many of our citizens. It’s sounds like a ham-handed approach to find one girl, based on a phone call.
If the raid had been conducted in a Muslim community, would there be as strong acceptance of the government’s actions? Would we dare intrude on their culture, where the role of women appears to have similarities? Wouldn’t we think about their rights being assaulted, especially if we housed those women and children in a “non-believer” church?
Our mainstream culture has devolved to the point that we blithely accept teen and even pre-teen sex to be acceptable as long as proper protection is used. If sex at that age is arguably okay, why is marriage a no-no? At what point does the age of the male become an issue? Isn’t it really the “eeeww” factor that’s the bigger problem for some people? What is the reasoning behind laws that determine the age of consent?
It’s not that uncommon to read about the eighty-year-old man, who marries a twenty-year-old woman and fathers a child. When the news media gets wind, they turn it into an evening news fluff-piece, and some bozo with a microphone and a hundred-dollar haircut, tells us how cute it is, especially if the man is a celebrity. Perhaps even a subtle joke about Viagra makes the cut.
Conversely, if a sixty-year-old woman marries a man in his twenties, and gives birth to a child, she’s admired for her ability to retain her youth and her sexuality. You go girl! Some might think it’s cute, but I personally find both situations revolting.
If the numbers I hear bandied about are correct, perhaps a third of the compound’s population was removed. Yes, I’m sure some of those folks were pleased to leave, but I can’t believe that everyone wanted to be forcibly taken from their homes, and I can’t believe all 400 were suspected of being a party to some crime. Did the women leave only so they could be with their children, or were they truly relieved to be freed of a repugnant situation?
Just as the government overreacted in Waco, I think they are overreacting today…and I find it strange that some of this forum’s most vocal advocates of civil rights are either silent, or are on the side of the mass breakup of family units.
I'd suspect it's far less traumatizing to be packed off in a bus than to be raped at 14 by someone my parents' religious leader has assigned me as a husband.
I feel the need to point out that the First Baptist church buses were used because they have SEATBELTS that would allow a car seat to be used. Older children and women were also transported on school buses. It's not as if Eldorado has a ton of school buses to use for transporting these people. It was also a school day so the buses the local school district owns were being used to, you know, take kids home. Using First Baptist buses wasn't some kind of religious insult. They're just buses!
Also they weren't housed in a church or anything like that. They were taken to the local civic center for the first few days before being moved to Fort Concho in San Angelo.
And I'm not sure where this idea of "barging in with guns" comes from? CPS workers attempted to conduct interviews on the YFZ ranch on Thursday evening (4/3/2008.) The sect guards refused entry and refused to produce the girl. The Texas Rangers (who have been building a case for years), DPS, Midland SWAT and Schleicher County Sheriff's department were finally able to gain entry on Friday (4/4/08) morning by driving an APC to the gates (where armed men and rows of vehicles were parked.) Midland SWAT explained that they needed to open the gate or they would open it themselves. At that point, sect members said they would produce the girl--and yet they still haven't.
Once the gate was open, from what I understand, there was no "barging in with guns." The police force entered the compound and began their investigation with CPS. Even when they wanted to search the temple, they negotiated a peaceful entry. In none of the hundreds of pictures taken by various media outlets are there any photos of police officers with guns drawn. (Maybe I haven't seen them. I'm fairly certain if there were these kinds of photos, they'd be splashed all over CNN and FOX.) If anything, the police officers have tried to shield these women and children. They stood in long lines and held sheets as barriers to the media so the women and children could get on and off buses without having their photos taken.
I'm sorry if I seem a bit upset, but quite frankly, I don't understand how a legal (and probably necessary) investigation by Texas authorities is any more traumatizing than being forced into a "celestial" marriage with your relative (cuz at this point, they're all related) at fifteen or sixteen.
Also they weren't housed in a church or anything like that. They were taken to the local civic center for the first few days before being moved to Fort Concho in San Angelo.
And I'm not sure where this idea of "barging in with guns" comes from? CPS workers attempted to conduct interviews on the YFZ ranch on Thursday evening (4/3/2008.) The sect guards refused entry and refused to produce the girl. The Texas Rangers (who have been building a case for years), DPS, Midland SWAT and Schleicher County Sheriff's department were finally able to gain entry on Friday (4/4/08) morning by driving an APC to the gates (where armed men and rows of vehicles were parked.) Midland SWAT explained that they needed to open the gate or they would open it themselves. At that point, sect members said they would produce the girl--and yet they still haven't.
Once the gate was open, from what I understand, there was no "barging in with guns." The police force entered the compound and began their investigation with CPS. Even when they wanted to search the temple, they negotiated a peaceful entry. In none of the hundreds of pictures taken by various media outlets are there any photos of police officers with guns drawn. (Maybe I haven't seen them. I'm fairly certain if there were these kinds of photos, they'd be splashed all over CNN and FOX.) If anything, the police officers have tried to shield these women and children. They stood in long lines and held sheets as barriers to the media so the women and children could get on and off buses without having their photos taken.
I'm sorry if I seem a bit upset, but quite frankly, I don't understand how a legal (and probably necessary) investigation by Texas authorities is any more traumatizing than being forced into a "celestial" marriage with your relative (cuz at this point, they're all related) at fifteen or sixteen.
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I am honestly trying to understand the perspective here. Maybe you could explain how you think it should have been handled. Maybe if we look at it from that perspective, I could understand where you and Julie are coming from. Could you please explain to me -- not what the authorities did wrong but rather what they should have done to do it right?
As for the religious argument, I cannot see it at all. This is nothing to do with religion at all. This is about laws being broken, women and girls being victimized, a young lady's call for help... it wouldn't matter a tinker's damn what religion they were and so that shouldn't even enter into how the situation should be handled.
johnnysannie
Banned
For one, I don't think it's very common at all to hear about 80 year old men with a twenty-year old bride but even if that is - as Gary indicates - a common scenario, a twenty year old YOUNG WOMAN who marries an 80 year old man of her own free will is a far cry from a teen-age girl forced into a marriage with a man more than three times her age.
And, in addition, I cannot and do not see that polygamists living in a locked compound, many against their own free will, are "family units".
What about the civil rights of the teenagers forced into marriage or the women forced to share a husband with other wives?
I think it’s very odd that, here we’re on day 4 or 5, and none of these hundreds of detainees have made bail, none of them have been allowed to talk to the press. Is this Fort Concho some sort of Guantanamo for religious sects?
Here’s a quote from an article in the Salt Lake Tribune:
Back at Fort Concho, media watched as a group of 9 young boys were walking around a grassy parade field. The boys approached the fence at one end of the field, where reporters called out to ask if they were being treated well.
One young man shook his head, no. As reporters moved closer to the fence, a CPS worker called the boys back to the buildings. One older boy then appeared to be being scolded by the worker.
Officers then approached the media and told them to move across the street.
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Detainees? Bail? This isn't Guantanamo! There are 133 women who voluntarily left the compound. There are 401 children under the age of 17 who have been taken into legal custody for their own protection pending an investigation.
Two men have been arrested. One was arrested for interfering with a police investigation. The second was arrested for tampering with evidence. As to whether or not they've been granted bail, I don't know.
Two men have been arrested. One was arrested for interfering with a police investigation. The second was arrested for tampering with evidence. As to whether or not they've been granted bail, I don't know.
The leader of this group, Warren Jeffs, is in fact in prison right this minute, and will be for a long time. Now, what specific charges got him put there happened in Utah, but he is personally responsible for the establishment of the Texas compound and the manner in which it operates. Which, by all accounts, mirrors his group's activities in Utah.
Authorities have all kinds of good reasons to be concerned about this outfit. They received information of potential criminal activity, and took the action necessary to investigate it. A couple people here think they made it all up, with utterly no basis for that belief, but most of us would prefer to be rational. We'll hear a lot more out of this story as matters unfold, and I'm fairly sure there will be some charges filed and ultimately adjudicated.
caw
I believe exactly two people are being held under conditions of bail (which may not yet have been set, because I don't know that any arraignments have taken place). But, again, let's not let factual accuracy get in the way of a good sound polemic.
caw
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