Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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blacbird

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Interesting. 1st person present tense is one of the biggies. I won't pretend that I've ever written anything worthwhile in it, I'm a 3rd person present tense kinda guy. But I'm surprised to hear that someone actively dislikes it. Any particular reason? And do you have any idea why this story doesn't set off your spider sense on this one?

For starts, you'll see a variety of opinions here on first/present narration. So this one is only mine, and I don't pretend it's gospel or anything like that. I've just seen a lot of stuff in that combo of person/tense that drifts into puerile introspection that doesn't interest or engage me. I think it works better in short stories than in novels.

But I picked up Percy's novel for a couple of reasons. The first being that I heard a very interesting interview with him on NPR a couple of weeks ago. The second being that I lived in New Orleans, the setting for the novel, back in the early 1980s.

A third reason emerged as I read the early portion: I didn't consciously notice the narrative style until I was about ten pages along. By that time, I was well-gaffed. The guy can write the way Tiger Woods plays golf.

I'll pass along a short example of what he can do. Undoubtedly it helps if you have some personal experience of The Easy (for instance, the terms "lower" and "up" refer to the direction the Mississippi flows there, which is actually north), but even without that, I think this is effective stuff. It's a description of the narrator getting off a bus on the Esplanade, a big boulevard (I lived for a time half a block off it) that bounds the northern edge of the French Quarter:

I alight at Esplanade in a smell of roasting coffee and creosote and walk up Royal Street. The lower Quarter is the best part. The ironwork on the balconies sags like rotten lace. Little French cottages hide behind high walls. Through deep sweating carriageways one catches glimpses of courtyards gone to jungle.

Rotten lace! Two perfect words that say almost everything. I wanna grow up to write that well.

caw
 

pdr

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For this piece...

2nd is perfect.

You get just that much more distance than you would with 1st and this is a character who is out of his skull and at a distance from himself.

1st requires that he is more self aware and noticing inside his head. Your example for us, Maestro, shows, to me anyway, that self awareness. But 2nd lets us see him looking at himself, all fuddled and confused, from outside his head. Clever and brilliant.

I think I'd hate the actual story, life's tough enough without reading about idiots who do such daft things to themselves, but I'd like to see how the writer keeps up the POV and how he ends it.
 

maestrowork

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You get just that much more distance than you would with 1st and this is a character who is out of his skull and at a distance from himself.

1st requires that he is more self aware and noticing inside his head. Your example for us, Maestro, shows, to me anyway, that self awareness. But 2nd lets us see him looking at himself, all fuddled and confused, from outside his head. Clever and brilliant.

I get that. But again, 2nd is odd to me -- it's somewhere between 1st and 3rd. There's this out of body feel to it: It's difficult to get "involved" when there's someone constantly addressing you (the reader) as the protagonist. I just wonder if it's sustainable (obviously, I've never read the book).
 

pdr

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Ah but...

I like 2nd. I've read a lot in 2nd and used it a few times. It is very useful.

I haven't read the book either. U.J. does he stay in 2nd all through or does he change POVs?
I think if I were writing this I would use other POVs as well.
 

James D. Macdonald

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The narrator stays in 2nd person all the way through. Which may be part of why this book is so short. It's at the bottom end of novel-length.

What the various opinions about person show is that there's no one right way. What's right for one reader may be totally wrong for another. Which is why there are many books by many writers, not just the One Perfect Novel. (One definition of "novel" is "a book-length work of prose fiction with a flaw.")

Another famous use of first-person present-tense is All Quiet on the Western Front.
 

Stew21

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I like the second person in this instance. It allows intimacy with the main character with a clearer perspective than MC first person could give (based on the assumption that the MC is doped up at 2 AM in a club). The writing is very compelling, the prose is beautiful, and I absolutely would turn the page.
 

Sailor Kenshin

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I'm afraid I wouldn't turn the page because second-person irritates the you-know-what out of me, and I don't enjoy reading about that sort of protagonist.

But the analysis was both excellent and eye-opening!
 

maestrowork

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I think I remember Uncle Jim talking about this: he was talking about a MAJOR flaw. Each novel allows only one major flaw (plot, character, etc.); more than one it's most likely not publishable.
 

pdr

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Stays?

Wow! If he stays in 2nd all the way through then I bet the book has a depressing end!

Thank you for introducing me to it, UJ, I've ordered it from my on-line bookshop.

blacbird, stop it. The more you tell yourself that you're no good, the more you'll make it come true!
 

Akuma

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I think I remember Uncle Jim talking about this: he was talking about a MAJOR flaw. Each novel allows only one major flaw (plot, character, etc.); more than one it's most likely not publishable.

I love and respect our sagacious Uncle Jim as much as the next guy, but I'm going to resist this law. And don't tell me it isn't a law, because Uncle's advice is taken to heart by everyone--the man has his own thread for a good reason.

Still, a person's life usually has more than one MAJOR flaw. If that means I won't get published, then I'll just work harder.
 

Ava Jarvis

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I don't think Uncle Jim is talking about people or characters.... he's talking about the book as a whole, the narrative as a whole.

Characters can have many flaws. People can have many flaws. Most people and characters have multiple major flaws.

But the narrative itself can probably only sustain one major flaw. We're not talking little flaws here, like whether it's first person or third person, or if there are too many adverbs; we're talking gigantic cracks in the storytelling, like having a character that only remembers the last 24 hours (and events take place beyond 24 hours, for years in fact). Such things can be intentional--for instance, Gene Wolfe's <i>Latros in the Mist</i>--but then you need to provide scaffolding and support around the flaw.

Flaws have a tendency to push readers away. Major flaws actually cut off part of your audience entirely--some people aren't going to be willing to get through the disjointedness of <i>Latros</i> or even the multiple head jumping in <i>Lonesome Dove</i>. If you have two such major flaws, even if they're intentional--and worse if they're not intentional--it will likely stress the work too much.

I think that's what he meant.
 

maestrowork

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By flaws I don't mean character flaws, bad situations, etc. Of course, go nuts with it. By flaws I mean "major plot hole" for example. Or a bad mid-book. Flaw as in "something isn't right about this novel."
 

James D. Macdonald

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Time for another line-by-line:

When Christopher Ransom opened his eyes he was on his back, looking up into a huddle of Japanese faces shimmering in a pool of artificial light. Who were these people? Then he placed them. These were his fellow karate-ka, members of his dojo. And there stood the sensei, broad nose skewed to the left side of his face, broken in the finals at the Junior All-Japan Karate Tournament fifteen years ago. Ransom was pleased that he could recall this detail. Collect enough of the details and the larger picture might take care of itself.

The sensei asked if he was okay. Ransom lifted his head. Turquoise and magenta disks played at the edge of his vision. He was hoisted to his feet; suddenly the landscape looked as if it was flipped on its side, the surface of the parking lot standing vertical like a wall and the façade of the gym lying flat where the ground should be. Then the scene righted itself, as if on hinges.


That's the first page from Ransom by Jay McInerney. (Please note how short a page is. Three pages a day for three months is a novel. It's easy ... all you have to do is sit there and do it.)

Okay, let's look at this page sentence-by-sentence.

When Christopher Ransom opened his eyes he was on his back, looking up into a huddle of Japanese faces shimmering in a pool of artificial light.

A person in a place with a problem. This is a classic opening form; you'd be hard-pressed to do better. We learn the protagonist's name by the third word.

Christopher means "Christ bearer." "Ransom" suggests salvation. (C.S. Lewis used the character name to suggest that meaning in his Space Trilogy; so did I in my Mageworlds books.) We've got baptismal imagery here. I don't know if the author will run with that, but the possibility is open to him. Nothing happens by chance in a novel; every word is an individual artistic choice.

We're in the absolutely classic third-person past-tense. Again, an excellent choice. Only use some other person and some other tense for the very best of reasons.


Who were these people?

That's the character's internal thoughts. Not marked with italic, but obvious from the context. A simple sentence.

Then he placed them.

Still simpler. The effect is of someone returning to consciousness.

These were his fellow karate-ka, members of his dojo.

Further defining place. Note use of foreign words (but still words that the average educated US readers should understand). More complex grammar. More about the protagonist too: We learn that Ransom himself is a karate-ka, and belongs to a dojo.


And there stood the sensei, broad nose skewed to the left side of his face, broken in the finals at the Junior All-Japan Karate Tournament fifteen years ago.

The sentences grow longer and more convoluted as the protagonist returns to consciousness. We have a second character introduced, with a telling detail, and a bit of history. More implications; this is full-contact karate.

Ransom was pleased that he could recall this detail.

Drop back to simpler grammar. We're focusing back on the protagonist.

Collect enough of the details and the larger picture might take care of itself.

End of the first paragraph with a philosophical statement, and perhaps foreshadowing of the overall shape of the novel.


The sensei asked if he was okay.

Paragraph two starts with a simple sentence, indirect discourse. Redirection to the second character.

Ransom lifted his head.

Very simple sentence. First physical motion in the book, and it's very small.

Turquoise and magenta disks played at the edge of his vision.

Sensual detail. But complex words: turquoise and magenta, not green and red. We're learning, not by being told directly, that Ransom was clocked upside the head, hard enough to knock him out.

He was hoisted to his feet; suddenly the landscape looked as if it was flipped on its side, the surface of the parking lot standing vertical like a wall and the façade of the gym lying flat where the ground should be.

Very long, compound-complex sentence, weird imagery. More definition on where he is -- in a parking lot. Ransom is passive here, giving us the impression of weakness. Whatever he told the sensei, about being okay, he's clearly not okay. This will slow the reader down.

Then the scene righted itself, as if on hinges.

Contrast: simpler sentence. Ransom is the observer. And a lovely image.

We've seen bunches of telling details. The prose is smooth. The imagery is outstanding.

Again, the author is concentrating on building scene and defining character. Plot hasn't yet arrived, for all that there's been some physical movement. The movement here has mostly been mental, from unconsciousness to observation.

So we've learned quite a bit more about the character and his situation/problem, even though some major mysteries are present. We don't know why he was on his back in the parking lot. It's night time (he's out of doors yet there's artificial light). A parking lot is an odd place to be having a formal karate bout. Was he mugged, despite his karate training?

The protagonist has a Western name, although the scene seems to be in Japan, or at least in a Japanese community. Lots to wonder about here.

So: the master question. Do you want to turn the page?
 
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James D. Macdonald

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It's time for the annual Christmas Challenge!

This year, we're going to write a ten-page short story. Beginning, middle, end. The protagonist is fourteen years old and lives in your city, present day, same gender as you are. Your audience is mixed gender, age twelve.

Now the fun part: take a die. Roll it.

If the first roll is 1, 2, or 3, write in third person. If it's 4 or 5, write in first person. If it's 6, write in second person.

Roll it again. If the second roll is 1, 2, or 3, write in past tense. If it's 4 or 5, write in present tense. If it's 6, write in future tense.

Write three pages (750 words) per day until you're finished, starting today. Then put the story aside until Christmas. Then read it aloud, and rewrite it until you love it.

On Wednesday the 2nd of January, go to Duotrope and find five appropriate markets (paying semi-pro or better rates). Send your story to each of them in turn, following their guidelines to the letter. Don't let the story sleep over when/if gets rejected: send it back out the same day.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Of course. It's got Japanese stuff in it.


This points up a serious issue:

Some readers will love a story because, for example, it has Japanese stuff in it; they'll read anything, no matter how dreadful, based on one criterion.

Other readers will hate a story because, for example, it has Japanese stuff in it; they'll refuse to read anything, no matter how wonderful, based on one criterion.


We as writers can't do anything about either of those cases. All we can do is write something that pleases us and hope for the best.
 

pdr

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Aint that the truth!

I've just had a shortlisted story in a prestigious comp, complimented for its originality and topic, rejected by an editor as unoriginal and on a boringly overused topic.

Yes, I laughed too. I've sold enough to know there's an editor out there who will like it. It's like UJ said:

We as writers can't do anything about either of those cases. All we can do is write something that pleases us and hope for the best.
 

Sailor Kenshin

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This points up a serious issue:

Some readers will love a story because, for example, it has Japanese stuff in it; they'll read anything, no matter how dreadful, based on one criterion.

Other readers will hate a story because, for example, it has Japanese stuff in it; they'll refuse to read anything, no matter how wonderful, based on one criterion.


We as writers can't do anything about either of those cases. All we can do is write something that pleases us and hope for the best.

I was sort of kind of kidding. I think.
 

gp101

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UJ,

Once again, thanks for the time you spend on your thread, and especially for breaking down, line-by-line, excerpts from pubbed novels.

My question is in regards to the actual excerpts. Do you need to seek an author's (or publisher's) permission before posting a modest excerpt on these boards? What are the boundaries?

I only ask because I've been itching to post some examples from openings (and other parts of various novels) in my preferred section/genre, Mystery/Suspense/THriller, in the hopes that not only will the excerpts help everybody in the genre see how others do things, but that other members will post excerpts that I would otherwise not read and can learn from. I think it would help all of us (and maybe turn us onto new authors). But I'm not sure how much (if any) of a pubbed novel I can post.

I occasionally see excerpts in other threads for various reasons, but I'm thinking if I start a thread focusing on "how others do it" (with permission of the MODS, of course) that the entire thread will contain endless excerpts from endless novels. Is that a recipe for disaster, or is a page or paragraph short enough not to attract the anger of a publishing house? I would want to keep it to positive posts, as in, excerpts we should admire and maybe emulate; not the opposite--examples of pubbed prose that we find hideous and should be avoided.

I don't plan on doing line-by's like you do because I don't have the authority a published writer has. But I would explain what I like about an excerpt, and I hope others would post excerpts with similar comments.

What do you think?

Thanks,

gp
 

jpserra

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It's time for the annual Christmas Challenge!

This year, we're going to write a ten-page short story. Beginning, middle, end. The protagonist is fourteen years old and lives in your city, present day, same gender as you are. Your audience is mixed gender, age twelve.

Even when I was 14, I couldn't get my mind around it. What makes you think I could do it now?

:>)

JP
 

James D. Macdonald

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Brief excerpts for the purpose critical analysis or teaching falls under Fair Use.

(Now, mind you, Fair Use is a defense against a charge of copyright violation, not permission, and there's no guarantee I'd win, but there's enough chance that I'd win that the copyright holder would have to be nuts in the head to bring a suit.)
 
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