Return of a Man Named PAMB and its Quotes

ctripp said:

It's just so sad that people can be worked up like this for a lousy hundred bucks ( taxable ) this is the power PA has over the naive and the desperate.

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Consider the people involved, though. If they were counting on decent royalties to help with needed expenses in their lives, then that $100 is likely something they could really use.

This one popped up under "Major Book" guy's many replies to no long posted posts:

I liked this page just to reply to you. What you are saying is out and out false. I don't blame you, it's a common myth of publishing. Agents sign new never-heard-of authors every day. Commercial publishers - big ones, little ones, medium ones - sign new, unpublished authors to deals EVERY DAY. Check out Publisher's Lunch or subscribe to Publisher's Marketplace if you don't believe me. They give advances. They do all that work and make the book look good. Don't believe the hype. The only catch is that you have to have a great book and query agents that you think will be a good fit. Won't happen overnight, but it DOES HAPPEN. ALL. THE. TIME.

[name redacted], if you want an agent, you just keep on trying. Find a critique group and polish that manuscript until it shines. Learn to write a great query letter and research agents you query. Then send it out. Can't win if you don't play.

Now I can unlike this page, and PA can delete my reply if they like. I just can't stand the facts of publishing being so grossly misrepresented.

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Yeah, that was me. I said NOTHING negative about PA in there, I just couldn't stand it anymore. I only wanted people to realize that guy was blowing smoke up their butts.

You have to like the page to vote for the book - kind of sneaky on PA's part, they get more "like-ers".

Then people can unlike the page when they're done voting, I wonder if they know that?

Might as well post the smoke he was blowing before Christine set him straight, just in case anyone here wants to do a line by line.

To one of his deleted responders, he said this:

It's best to forgo using a literary agent to try and get your book to a major publisher. Until you gain publicity in the writing world, there's not many "traditional" publishers that will be willing to give you a book contract. Times are tough out there, so publishers aren't willing to sink money into an unknown author. And if you do find someone, you'd better realize they aren't going to edit it or proofread it. It has to be "ready-to-go" and highly marketable. About being able to get a royalty report; the publisher should provide you with a spread-sheet indicating where each book is sold, along with a royalty payment (your percent) breakdown. Hope I've helped.

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. . .and to the first one who responded, he added:

First off, my book, <title>, just came out last week. Do I feel my books are going to be my "golden parachute" in life--no!? Do I expect PA or any other publisher to market my book for me--no?! Secondly, you have to realize whenever you approach a publisher, magazine company or newspaper organization, it's "what you can do for them." For example, your writing better be highly marketable and how is it going to make THEM money. If you only receive a dime on anything, that's not you goal. Your goal is EXPOSURE!!! Thirdly, concentrate on making gross revenues. Learn that your book is like a business, and most business don't show profits for 5-10 years. The main thing to realize, and keep in mind, is the book (your business) selling? Buy 50-100 books, sell them on your own, sell them on consignment everywhere, and promote yourself tirelessly . Also, don't speak negative about your publisher. Rather, what is it that YOU are doing wrong in the whole publishing process? Like I said, I can't say bad things about PA because they help me pull off (perfectly) a major poker book. I'm no idiot when it comes to design and they really pulled it off, so I have to support them all the way.

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So his book came out last week. That explains a lot.

I saw Christine's rely to the writer on FB and could not stop myself but to congratulate her privately on her conviction to help others. Like I mentioned in my email Christine, if I had three thumbs, they would be up

Rather, what is it that YOU are doing wrong in the whole publishing process?

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Absolutely nothing. I sold and am still selling books to real publishers, not vanities. They pay me real money and get my books into stores.

However, YOU put a book into PA's hands, which has more wrong about it than you can grasp.

You'll figure it out when the first royalty statement arrives.

We'll be here if you need to vent about that "publisher" you like so much.

And the post from Christine is gone, but the reply remains.

Christine, Thanks for your information on literary agents. I don't feel what I'm saying is a "myth" at all. Speaking from many years of experience in dealing with literary agents, I feel they are an incredible waste of time and can be very frustrating to work with. I sat on a great book idea, Poker in Las Vegas, for over a year before I got PA to do the whole thing for FREE. I was in consultation with almost every agent across the country--most of them rejecting a great book proposal like this!? Besides that, if one does get on with an agent, they want the author to drastically change their work to match some ridiculous standards that don't even match that particular genre or, for that matter, what the publishing standards are in the first place. Who and the heck wants to continually tear up their book all the time? As the years click on by, your frustration gets to the point of putting the book down for good--never to get published at all. Is this what authors have to look forward to when they've completed their book? I agree that PA is misleading the public about their intentions to market authors works, but most authors are very delusional when it comes to getting published in the first place. They firmly believe that their book idea is so great that a publisher is going to come along and give them hundreds and thousands of dollars for an advancement, totally edit and proof their sloppy manuscript, and then market them all over the place w/o the author being proactive in the slightest bit. Heck, one of these days I'm going to become a publisher myself. Of course I'd probably end up tossing 99.9% of the unedited, bad English laden crap in the garbage right off the bat. Sorry for being so harsh, but sometimes people have to wake up and smell the roses. It's really all about math, business and volumes.

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Of course I'd probably end up tossing 99.9% of the unedited, bad English laden crap in the garbage right off the bat

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So this writer will not be hired by PA anytime soon.

. . . and his FB post and its comments have gone poof. Wonder if he woke up and smelled the roses and how he feels about PA now.

Well, I have to agree with him that he has a very niche type of book. There are few agents that would sign that kind of book. No argument there. However, he's making blanket statements about agents when not everyone writes that type of book. Fiction authors should NOT take his advice at all.

and his FB post and its comments have gone poof. Wonder if he woke up and smelled the roses and how he feels about PA now.

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More likely his replies to posts that no longer exist made PA nervous, so they junked the whole thread.

Once the first royalty statement arrives he will become PA's worst enemy and declare all of publishing to be the evil empire of Darth Sidious and continue to spout inaccurate info about publishing.

I rather think he's dealt with the wrong kind of agents, as he complained that they weren't worth the money.

One may hope that he's had better luck in his card playing than he has at finding reputable literary help.

I predict he will do rather well if he goes for self-publishing.

A niche market book on poker can have a strong "draw" in some areas.

Y'know, without knowing who this guy is or what his books are, I think this last quote pretty much explains everything...

Christine, Thanks for your information on literary agents. I don't feel what I'm saying is a "myth" at all. Speaking from many years of experience in dealing with literary agents, I feel they are an incredible waste of time and can be very frustrating to work with. I sat on a great book idea, Poker in Las Vegas, for over a year before I got PA to do the whole thing for FREE. I was in consultation with almost every agent across the country--most of them rejecting a great book proposal like this!?

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(Bolding mine, of course.)

This explains it all. It's a GREAT IDEA. Poker in Las Vegas. How the heck has NOBODY EVER THOUGHT OF THIS BEFORE? Clearly, this individual is simply too advanced for minds of mere mortals, such as all those agents who rejected his book and/or asked for massive changes to make it readable.

Heck, one of these days I'm going to become a publisher myself.

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I chuckle with anticipation.

Sorry for being so harsh, but sometimes people have to wake up and smell the roses.

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At last, he says something I can agree with.

PA Cheerleader:
Speaking from many years of experience in dealing with literary agents, I feel they are an incredible waste of time and can be very frustrating to work with.

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It all depends on the agent and what you mean by "work with". A legitimate agent with commercial sales is well worth working with because any comments they make on a manuscript is aimed at increasing saleability. My feeling from the rest of the comment though is that the cheerleader didn't actually "work" with any agent - instead s/he went through the submission process and was waiting for responses. That can be frustrating but it's all part and parcel of commercial publishing and they should have moved onto thinking about their next book.

PA Cheerleader:
I sat on a great book idea, Poker in Las Vegas, for over a year before I got PA to do the whole thing for FREE. I was in consultation with almost every agent across the country--most of them rejecting a great book proposal like this!?

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Really - almost every agent in the country? I doubt that somehow.

If you're getting rejections then there are a number of reasons for that, e.g. you might not have the platform to support the subject matter (platform is very important in non-fiction and for something like poker, you'd need to be able to demonstrate why your book works), your proposal may need work, or you may be submitting for a market that is already saturated (certainly there are plenty of poker books in the UK at the moment).

PA Cheerleader:
Besides that, if one does get on with an agent, they want the author to drastically change their work to match some ridiculous standards that don't even match that particular genre or, for that matter, what the publishing standards are in the first place. Who and the heck wants to continually tear up their book all the time?

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Editing and rewriting is part and parcel of publishing (whether for fiction or non-fiction). It sucks, it's irritating, you want to tear your hair out and scream but if it gets you a better book at the end of it then it's worth it.

PA Cheerleader:
I agree that PA is misleading the public about their intentions to market authors works, but most authors are very delusional when it comes to getting published in the first place

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So PA is misleading but it's the author's fault for believing them and having expectations about what a publisher should do?

That doesn't compute.

If you don't expect your publisher to market for you, then what are they doing that you can't already do yourself by going down the self-publishing route?

PA Cheerleader: (BOLDING MINE)
They firmly believe that their book idea is so great that a publisher is going to come along and give them hundreds and thousands of dollars for an advancement, totally edit and proof their sloppy manuscript, and then market them all over the place w/o the author being proactive in the slightest bit.

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Sloppy manuscripts don't usually get offers from commercial publishers. If a publisher makes an offer for a contract, then it's because the manuscript is of a saleable quality or has the potential to be of saleable quality. Everyone goes through editing - whether it's a copy edit or a full structural one.

PA Cheerleader:
Heck, one of these days I'm going to become a publisher myself.

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Heck, you won't be the first PA author to decide to do that.

PA Cheerleader:
Of course I'd probably end up tossing 99.9% of the unedited, bad English laden crap in the garbage right off the bat.

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Physician, heal thyself.

PA Cheerleader:
Sorry for being so harsh, but sometimes people have to wake up and smell the roses.

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Must. Not. Snark.

PA Cheerleader:
It's really all about math, business and volumes.

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Yes it is. And PA's math is predicated on hooking in sufficient numbers of authors who will be willing to buy their own books in volumes sufficient to make it profitable for PA to run its business. Recently it's extended that to encouraging atuhors to buy "special offers" or services that any other commercial publisher would do for free. At the same time PA has the temerity to tell people that they haven't paid to be published.

MM

Christine N. said:

Well, I have to agree with him that he has a very niche type of book. There are few agents that would sign that kind of book. No argument there. However, he's making blanket statements about agents when not everyone writes that type of book. Fiction authors should NOT take his advice at all.

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The how-to-play/win-at-poker book market is very competitive and has been for several years. If he's not a famous money-winning player or well-known TV poker commentator (i.e., has a great platform), the odds of making it with a poker book are astronomically low. The odds of making it with a PA poker book are not calcuable.

One caveat: if he's a popular speaker and travels around giving seminars, it might have worked. Selling at the back of the hall after a speaking engagement is one technique that can succeed. Unfortunately, historical data have shown his odds of getting PA to print and ship a steady supply of books in a timely manner are also vanishingly small.

For a poker player, he doesn't seem to have figured the odds very well on this one, but of course PA stacks the deck. It's even possible he has an amazing book, that might succeed with a decent commercial publisher or perhaps as a self-pub & lecture venture. But with the roadblocks PA throws out, no one will know unless he gets his rights back and tries again.

In the spirit of fairness, I should note that poker books tend to be very expensive, so this is probably the one PA book that would not be thought overpriced by its target audience.

There's another forum set up by PA loyalists (or perhaps that's ex-loyalists, since the founder now wants her rights back), but despite the testimonials and praise, a few notes of reality are creeping in. A self-published author asked about PA and got a reply about how they "nickel and dime" authors for services. The PA author clarified:

What I mean is any promoting that they do costs me. You would think they would want to promote their authors.

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You would think so until you realize what their business model is. Then you see it's a closed circle: you are the consumer, they are the supplier and no one else is needed for them to make a profit. Therefore they have no incentive to promote you to anyone.

It also cost me to get my book converted to an ebook, again something you would think they would want to do. They even made me pay for SHIPPING! For what?

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Hey, that $3.99 probably came in very handy. For coffee. For themselves.

Overall I am very frustrated. If any other authors find a better publisher please post it here. I am already working on my next book.

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Good to hear he's working on another book, but I doubt any of the authors on that forum will be able to suggest another publisher - they're all in the same sinking boat.

Guys, let's stop picking on the poker player. If he's ever directed to this thread and sees the negative comments he will more than likely form a negative opinion about all of AW. We're not here to rip into the writers, but into PA's deceptive business practices.

We respect the writer even if he ain't perfect.

He's happy for now, but I do not doubt that will change shortly and he will be pissed as hell at PA.

I'm thinking that he will get his rights back and start over, but with self-publishing, which is better than PA or any of the other vanities out there.

Who knows, his book might be awesome. But awesome or not, it deserved better than the PA quicksand pit.

Queen of Swords said:

You would think so until you realize what their business model is. Then you see it's a closed circle: you are the consumer, they are the supplier and no one else is needed for them to make a profit. Therefore they have no incentive to promote you to anyone.

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Or, in other terms: the product is not your book. The product is the services you pay money for.

Gillhoughly said:

Guys, let's stop picking on the poker player. If he's ever directed to this thread and sees the negative comments he will more than likely form a negative opinion about all of AW. We're not here to rip into the writers, but into PA's deceptive business practices.

We respect the writer even if he ain't perfect.

He's happy for now, but I do not doubt that will change shortly and he will be pissed as hell at PA.

I'm thinking that he will get his rights back and start over, but with self-publishing, which is better than PA or any of the other vanities out there.

Who knows, his book might be awesome. But awesome or not, it deserved better than the PA quicksand pit.

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Ditto this. Poker Guy,* if you do stop by here, please don't think that this forum is about bashing authors. We'd love to have you here. (And personally, given the glut in the market, I think self-pubbing might be something worth trying for you**; we have a whole subforum devoted to it here.) I think you're way too smart to not see through PA very quickly, personally, and you don't seem to me like a man who'll tuck his tail between his legs and give up.


*Let me explain why we're calling you "Poker Guy," lest you think it's an insult. It's NOT. The reason we come up with nicknames is because this forum has a very high Google ranking; if we mentioned your actual name, this site would likely come up in the first page of search results for you. We don't want our discussion of your publisher to appear on a search that should be about you and your book; we don't want that interfering with your promotional activities. Hence the nickname. It's not because we're making fun of you--that is not at all our intention--it's because we don't want anything to get in the way of you and your book. (Including your publisher.)

**I suggest self-publishing because PA has "published" your book, thus using your first printing rights. It's extremely hard if not impossible to sell reprint rights for a book with low sales figures to begin with--and sadly, being with PA is pretty much a guarantee of low sales figures.

Really. We'd love to have you here.

I do need to chime in about how welcoming AW is to PA writers. Never once have I been made to feel embarrassed about my PA experience. I share it here openly to show that PA does not have to be the end of my writing career, and now that I know more about how publishing works (thanks to the people who've taken the time to explain it here) my new books have a shot at selling more than the 12 copies my PA book has sold (10 to myself).

If you do agree with PA's strategy and participate here, please understand that we will ask for your input on why you think this is a good approach. It can at times seem we are dogpiling on you, but that is not our intent. I for one would back off entirely if someone could explain to me how PA's business model benefits authors, and provided hard numbers demonstrating this, or if PA changed its approach.

Quote Ripped from Context. Please check the source

Gillhoughly said:

We respect the writer even if he ain't perfect.

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.

This is exactly why I felt good about coming here. Even though I did not agree with the opinions here, I knew the AW people genuinely cared other authors. Just about every person, well known or not, was approachable and I felt like I belonged in the group, even if my talents don't match a Gil or a Uncle Jim.

For my sins of leaving the PAMB, I was given good advice and I have improved as a writer. Not bad redemption.

The thing about the poker player's guide guy is that if he had invested a small sum of money in paying someone to help him self-publish, he could have had a much better product and kept all the profits for himself.

Also, there are several small presses--mostly located in Las Vegas and Reno--that specialize in publishing books about poker and other games of chance. Cardoza Books has made beaucoup money for Doyle Brunson and many others, and they're just one of a group.

So I am not mocking him in any way--I wish him the best--but just pointing out that PA was probably not actually his best choice.

"This is not going to last forever. But for now we're sticking to rock-bottom pricing."--this was in an email I received today stating that the new rock-bottom prices might not stay. This has me worried, as I'm sure other authors are too, about how our books will do if the prices keep changing from low to high again. Do you have an idea of how long they will last so we can get the word out now while the price is low? A month? Until next year?

PublishAmerica No business will ever tell you that a particular price will last forever. But you're good for at least the next few months.

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Scare tactics to encourage you to buy now, before the prices go back up.

Last time I remember them doing this it lasted a couple months. Are we surprised, though? Especially after PA told a new author they weren't eligible for the lower price, since everyone needs to start out the same.

I'll come back and edit once I find an older post I'm looking for . . .

Found it. The PAperback and Bargain Hardcover books were to be priced "permanently" at $9.95 and $14.95, respectively. See the June 30 and July 7 entries on the linked post.

I don't want to pick on him either. I only replied to him on the FB page because I just couldn't stand that he was giving out useless and incorrect advice to other writers. He's just passing on his experience, but his is not the norm because his book is not the norm.

Then there's the camp of people who actually believe those things he said because they'd rather believe that than believe their book isn't ready for prime time. That happens very often.

We're only here to educate.