The W1S1 Check-in and Chill Lounge and Bar

alexshvartsman · Nov 11, 2011

Aggy: Hugs on the rejection and good luck at Shimmer! The editor there told me in the past that she almost never buys flash (I was told this in a very nice rejection letter, of course) so I tend to only try them with short-shorts and not flash anymore, but difficult doesn't mean impossible. Hope your story makes them want to buy it despite its length! And if not, well, at least they are quick with a response.

defcon6000 · Nov 11, 2011

Hey, so who was the other individual who subbed to White Cat Magazine? Have you heard anything back? Because I haven't.

I'm starting to think it's gotten lost.

Lillie · Nov 11, 2011

The only thing of mine that got to the second round with Shimmer was a flash piece.

They didn't take it in the end. But they did consider it.

Ovid9 · Nov 11, 2011

Awww, sorry to hear about the rejections in here.

I just subbed the story that got rejected to a new market. I wanted to rework it a bit, but it was the only thing I had ready to go since I've been focusing on Nano so much this month.

If it gets rejected again I at least have some ideas to tighten it up and make it stronger.

Good luck all!

AnnieColleen · Nov 11, 2011

defcon6000 said:
Hey, so who was the other individual who subbed to White Cat Magazine? Have you heard anything back? Because I haven't. I'm starting to think it's gotten lost.

That was me. No, I haven't heard anything. I'd kind of lost track of it, actually.

defcon6000 · Nov 11, 2011

AnnieColleen said:
That was me. No, I haven't heard anything. I'd kind of lost track of it, actually.

Ahh. I always see it on Duotropes when I check my submissions, and I keep thinking: Geez, it's been there for a long time.

Sorry to hear about the R, Ovid9.

alexshvartsman · Nov 11, 2011

defcon6000 said:
Ahh. I always see it on Duotropes when I check my submissions, and I keep thinking: Geez, it's been there for a long time.

They published my story on September 2 but I still haven't gotten paid for it (nor received any sort of contract for that matter). I queried about a week ago, got a pretty quick response with an apology and a promise of prompt payment. Going to give it another week or so and query again, but they definitely need to get organized a bit better.

defcon6000 · Nov 12, 2011

That's terrible, Alex! And major red flags. No contract? Sheesh!

I think I'll withdraw my story and avoid them until they get their act together. Right now, they seem to be more interested in playing crusades than being a publisher. I know, I'm being cynical, but that's what it looks like to me.

Lillie · Nov 12, 2011

You know, I never got a contract from Eschatology.

They just said they'd publish it, and they did.
They paid too. On the day they published.

Is that normal? I don't have a lot of experience of this.
I take it that the terms were defined on their submissions page.
ie. non exclusive right to publish on their website.

I have no complaints, I'm just wondering. I have so little experience of this.

defcon6000 · Nov 12, 2011

That's odd, I assumed contracts were the norm. Otherwise, how do you know what rights you're signing over? I know the submission guidelines give some general idea of what rights they'll ask, but it isn't binding, nor legal, until you agree to it -- unless subbing to them automatically means you agree to their terms.

Someone emailed me this: http://www.barrettlaw.com/74.htm

I thought it was helpful, just to understand the basics in contracts and law.

ShadowFox · Nov 12, 2011

defcon6000 said:
That's odd, I assumed contracts were the norm. Otherwise, how do you know what rights you're signing over? I know the submission guidelines give some general idea of what rights they'll ask, but it isn't binding, nor legal, until you agree to it -- unless subbing to them automatically means you agree to their terms.
.

Contracts don't need to be written down to be valid. And the submission guidelines are specific enough in this case to form a valid offer. By submitting the story, and accepting the money, you accept the offer.

In this case, they are publishing the non-exclusive right to print the story on their website for 0.01 cents a word.

Emptyeye · Nov 12, 2011

I think I've figured a way out of my "Why would my antagonist carry around his weakness?" dilemma--change his identity. I don't know how well it'll actually work in execution, but at least I have somewhere to go with this now.

alexshvartsman · Nov 12, 2011

defcon6000 said:
That's odd, I assumed contracts were the norm. Otherwise, how do you know what rights you're signing over? I know the submission guidelines give some general idea of what rights they'll ask, but it isn't binding, nor legal, until you agree to it -- unless subbing to them automatically means you agree to their terms.

Someone emailed me this: http://www.barrettlaw.com/74.htm

I thought it was helpful, just to understand the basics in contracts and law.

A lot of the smaller markets don't do contracts. In of itself, it's not a big deal. The terms are spelled out in the Submission guidelines.

In this particular case, I am a bit concerned because:

a) the story was posted AS I was notified it was accepted. They didn't check to make sure it was still available, I was still interested, etc. The market is no sim-subs, but it's still unusual.
b) no contract ever arrived and the terms are NOT spelled out in detail on the submission guidelines. Which, again, is no huge deal - I consider to have provided one time first rights with no exclusivity, since I never signed/agreed upon otherwise.
c) no payment yet. That one is more of a big deal.

I do think they are a well-meaning bunch who just haven't gotten the kinks out yet, rather than somehow setting out to screw their writers - but I will query again by the end of next week and report back here on the outcome.

defcon6000 · Nov 12, 2011

ShadowFox said:
Contracts don't need to be written down to be valid. And the submission guidelines are specific enough in this case to form a valid offer. By submitting the story, and accepting the money, you accept the offer.

In this case, they are publishing the non-exclusive right to print the story on their website for 0.01 cents a word.

I was talking about White Cat, not Eschatology. And I know contracts don't need to be written down, but I doubt submitting to a magazine is the same as agreeing to their terms. After all, guidelines change.

imo, no contract = unprofessional

I mean really, how hard is it to come up with a contract, email the author, and then have the author sign it?

Or let's put it this way: Would you submit your novel to an agent who then went ahead and sold your novel to a publisher, and only mentioned it after the fact?

Izz · Nov 12, 2011

defcon6000 said:
I was talking about White Cat, not Eschatology. And I know contracts don't need to be written down, but I doubt submitting to a magazine is the same as agreeing to their terms. After all, guidelines change.

Some zines state specifically in their guidelines that if you submit you're agreeing to their terms and they'll take your submission as your electronic signature. One venue i know of brings up a copy of your contract when you submit and you have to agree to the terms before you can submit.

Other venues outline their terms in your acceptance email and ask you reply with your agreement to those terms.

imo, no contract = unprofessional

I agree, mostly. There at least needs to be agreement between the writer and publisher as to what rights are being bought and for how long. An actual contract document is best, imo, because that lays everything out in an organized manner, but it's not the only way. White Cat is the first instance i've heard of of a pro-rate paying (i don't view them as a pro market, though, just pro-rate paying) publication not having a contract. That it doesn't sound like they did any edits irks me enough

but no contract?

I mean really, how hard is it to come up with a contract, email the author, and then have the author sign it?

It's not that hard, but sometimes getting a signed copy back can be. For C&C, i send out a contract for the writer to sign, but i also allow for them to reply via email with acceptance of the terms if returning the signed contract is too much hassle. For most, sending a physical copy of the contract all the way to NZ is not really an option, and there are still writers who aren't tech-savvy when it comes to scanning docs, or aren't able to afford/don't have access to scanners, etc.

defcon6000 · Nov 12, 2011

Thanks for explaining all that, Izz.

I just find the idea of having no contract offered, or at the very least, an outline of the terms you'll be agreeing to if you accept the offer, a little disconcerting.

Izz · Nov 12, 2011

defcon6000 said:
I just find the idea of having no contract offered, or at the very least, an outline of the terms you'll be agreeing to if you accept the offer, a little disconcerting.

Oh, i agree, most definitely. I hope White Cat is just a little out of their depth, but i won't be subbing to them until i hear they've got everything sorted out.

ShadowFox · Nov 13, 2011

defcon6000 said:
I was talking about White Cat, not Eschatology.

Honestly, I am confused.

I thought you were talking about Eschatology in the contract discussions. It's pretty unusual for a market that is asking for exclusive rights not to have a written contract.

I don't really know enough to comment about White Cat.

defcon6000 said:
And I know contracts don't need to be written down, but I doubt submitting to a magazine is the same as agreeing to their terms. After all, guidelines change.

This discussion is with licensing copyright. So, by the very nature of submitting the work, you are making an offer in contractual terms. If they accept the work, and pay you according to their guidelines, it is a legal contract.

At any point before the payment or publication, you can change your mind.

defcon6000 said:
imo, no contract = unprofessional

I mean really, how hard is it to come up with a contract, email the author, and then have the author sign it?

By this, I assume you mean a written contact?

I think a written contract is a good idea, but many people regularly go about doing deals worth a lot more than a short story deal without one.

I'd expect pro markets to have a contact, but it is much less likely to happen in a semi-pro market, because they would never voluntarily go to court. Again, for most markets, going to court is not a viable option, the contract is merely there to prevent misunderstandings.

Lillie · Nov 13, 2011

ShadowFox said:
Honestly, I am confused.

I thought you were talking about Eschatology in the contract discussions.

I'm sorry. That was my fault.
I introduced Eschatology into a discussion about White Cat.

soapdish · Nov 16, 2011

Well, I'm 1300 words in on a post-apocalyptic type story. I'm so far outside my comfort zone with this one. But dying to just reach the end so I can go back and fine tune it.

Anyone read any good apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic short stories recently that they can point me to? I need help with setting and atmosphere.

I have the "story" just can't get the details right.

Izz · Nov 16, 2011

soapdish said:
Well, I'm 1300 words in on a post-apocalyptic type story. I'm so far outside my comfort zone with this one. But dying to just reach the end so I can go back and fine tune it.

Anyone read any good apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic short stories recently that they can point me to? I need help with setting and atmosphere. I have the "story" just can't get the details right.

There's a good one coming out in two days from C&C...

soapdish · Nov 16, 2011

It's funny because as soon as I posted, I had this funny feeling you'd be along right after with a suggestion for C&C.

Izz · Nov 16, 2011

soapdish said:
It's funny because as soon as I posted, I had this funny feeling you'd be along right after with a suggestion for C&C.

--glad i didn't disappoint. You might already have access to the story (you were one of my issue #1 format testing peeps, weren't you?). It's 'Following the Mercy Man,' by Therese Arkenberg.

soapdish · Nov 16, 2011

Right! I'd forgotten. Got it all loaded up on the Kindle.

And I love Therese's stuff. Her stories are always awesome. Thank you for reminding me.

Izz · Nov 16, 2011

Oh, and 'Rabbits and Americans in the town of Yam,' by RJ Astruc has a post-apoc vibe to it, even though it isn't really.

The W1S1 Check-in and Chill Lounge and Bar

alexshvartsman

defcon6000

Lillie

practical experience, FTW

Ovid9

Professional Procrastinator

AnnieColleen

Invisible Writer

defcon6000

alexshvartsman

defcon6000

Lillie

practical experience, FTW

defcon6000

ShadowFox

Emptyeye

alexshvartsman

defcon6000

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

defcon6000

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

ShadowFox

Lillie

practical experience, FTW

soapdish

writing

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

soapdish

writing

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic

soapdish

writing

Izz

Doing the Space Operatic