This. Especially in tv shows/movies where is seems like the slightest tap on the head is enough to put someone out for hours. Also the fact that they never seem to have any internal hemorrhaging or brain damage despite getting hit hard enough to lose consciousness for an extended period of time.
Cliches To Avoid Like The Plague?
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This. Especially in tv shows/movies where is seems like the slightest tap on the head is enough to put someone out for hours. Also the fact that they never seem to have any internal hemorrhaging or brain damage despite getting hit hard enough to lose consciousness for an extended period of time.
Interesting discussion. Mostly SF and UF so far so I thought I'd throw in a bit of fantasy (and I can't believe no-one has mentioned this classic book yet 
.)
So - for a really big discussion of classical fantasy tropes and cliches, go for "The Tough Guide to Fantasy Land" by Dianna Wynne Jones.
She wrote fantasy, then she wrote this book on fantasy tropes. Its very, very, funny and worth reading - it is written by someone who loves fantasy so not a crude send up. I saw a panel on fantasy worldbuilding once, she was a panel member, and all the other successful published fantasy authors were grinning and wincing and saying "Yes, I've used that one...."
They had a riot of a discussion, trying to remember how it started but there was something about travellers not being set on by bandits while in a bath, so if you carried a bath with you on the road, you'd be safe.....
DWJ also wrote the Dark Lord of Derkholme, which is another lovely take on quest fantasy - and a good story in its own right. Has a YA market feel to it, so if you are older than YA but like reading (some) YA you should be fine - just saying that because I recommended it to a friend and they couldn't get past the first few pages as it was far to YA for them.
.)So - for a really big discussion of classical fantasy tropes and cliches, go for "The Tough Guide to Fantasy Land" by Dianna Wynne Jones.
She wrote fantasy, then she wrote this book on fantasy tropes. Its very, very, funny and worth reading - it is written by someone who loves fantasy so not a crude send up. I saw a panel on fantasy worldbuilding once, she was a panel member, and all the other successful published fantasy authors were grinning and wincing and saying "Yes, I've used that one...."
They had a riot of a discussion, trying to remember how it started but there was something about travellers not being set on by bandits while in a bath, so if you carried a bath with you on the road, you'd be safe.....
DWJ also wrote the Dark Lord of Derkholme, which is another lovely take on quest fantasy - and a good story in its own right. Has a YA market feel to it, so if you are older than YA but like reading (some) YA you should be fine - just saying that because I recommended it to a friend and they couldn't get past the first few pages as it was far to YA for them.
A story I'm working on starts with a big thunderstorm in the distance while he watches it form a boat. Is it too much cliche?
Though the weather at that moment is important. He counts the seconds between lightning and the sound of thunder to judge if it's getting closer or not. (Besides judging it by he wind, of course.)
Though the weather at that moment is important. He counts the seconds between lightning and the sound of thunder to judge if it's getting closer or not. (Besides judging it by he wind, of course.)
Not particularly as far as I am concerned. Depends on how it is done.
Providing it doesn't start with the literal phrase "It was a dark and stormy night" then you could be OK.
Providing it doesn't start with the literal phrase "It was a dark and stormy night" then you could be OK.
Nah, it starts with him waiting for a lightning strike in the darkness, and then counting as soon as one hits.
In one of my projects, I start with a dark and stormy night (not with that line, though). It does actually serve a purpose because it's the first time the POV character has ever seen a storm.
Sounds fine - you have a person there and a reason. Doesn't start with "thunder rolled" (it rolled a six to quote Terry Pratchett) or "purple lightning split the midnight sky"
And now I will wait for someone to tell me of the published book which has one of those lines to open it.........
I don't know about those specific lines, but I guess that starting with the weather when it has no obvious effect on the plot at that point must be common enough (and a bad way to start a book).
Sounds fine - you have a person there and a reason. Doesn't start with "thunder rolled" (it rolled a six to quote Terry Pratchett) or "purple lightning split the midnight sky"
And now I will wait for someone to tell me of the published book which has one of those lines to open it.........
Not sure if this was what you were thinking, but did you realize Bruce Coville has a book that has a variant of BOTH those lines? In the opening two lines? It made for an entertaining snort of laughter on my part...
Nope. In fact I had to google Bruce Coville as never heard of him....
See he is kid's and YA so not embarrassed. Definitely not. Honest. .Francis Knight has "Dark and stormy knight" under her avatar - that's always amused me.
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The funny thing is that most readers don't spot these things anywhere near as much as we do.
We should be aware of them, but not to the point of obsession.
We should be aware of them, but not to the point of obsession.
There are so many ways to write a story and what we think to be cliches do not have to show stoppers. I happen to enjoy when a character turns out to be special or "the chosen one" because it makes them unique, especially when the character originally thought that they were ordinary. Telling a good story is about the character is what is important.
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And never underestimate the appeal of wish fulfillment characters. We writerly types tend to sneer at the concept, but I think it's why many people who aren't writers (and probably many writers too) enjoy tropes that show up over and over again.
With wish fulfillment characters, I like to think of it this way. Come for the wish fulfillment. Stay for a great story. I think that was a lot of the appeal of Harry Potter. At first, magic is just cool. But then a great story develops from there (and it gets quite dark later on, so the wish fulfillment isn't there so much anymore).
How to avoid character A touching something personal of Character B without character B flipping out. Via, Belle touching Beat's rose. Or Roger touching Eddie's brother's chair.
Cliches in Harry Potter:
- MC knocked unconscious
- Quirky twins
- Quirky sidekick
- Nerdy sidekick
- Bratty rich kid
- >>Chosen one<<
- Boarding school adventure
- Old, gloomy castle
- "I love my best friend's sister"
Cliches in Dracula:
- Suicide out of love
- Old, gloomy castle
- MC knocked unconscious
- Reincarnated "chosen one" trope (I would argue Mina)
- There are probably a billion more. Haven't read this one in a while.
Cliches in Interview with the Vampire:
- MC knocked unconscious
- Old, gloomy lair
- Brooding rich people
- Plot device to give characters endless riches
Cliches in Lord of the Rings:
- MC knocked unconscious (multiple times)
- Old, gloomy lair
- Wise old wizard (was already cliche at the time it was written)
- Quirky sidekick
- >>chosen one<<
- Did I mention: the Ultimate Chosen One Tale?
Honestly, I'm having more fun writing this post than I probably will actually arguing here.
But the point is that cliches are not always a bad thing. The problem with using cliches is that people don't know how to use them in ways that we won't pick up on. When Harry Potter, the Chosen One, is knocked unconscious after a Quidditch match, we don't notice. But when Bella Swan, the Chosen One, is knocked unconscious beause ~reasons~, we notice, and we roll our eyes. It's a matter of context and clever usage.
I say there's no reason to be afraid of using cliches if you know how to do it right. Cliches can be helpful, even. And when you read into a lot of great, well-loved stories, you sometimes find cliches at their cores. It's not a bad thing. All it means is that people knew how to use cliches and made it work for them.
- MC knocked unconscious
- Quirky twins
- Quirky sidekick
- Nerdy sidekick
- Bratty rich kid
- >>Chosen one<<
- Boarding school adventure
- Old, gloomy castle
- "I love my best friend's sister"
Cliches in Dracula:
- Suicide out of love
- Old, gloomy castle
- MC knocked unconscious
- Reincarnated "chosen one" trope (I would argue Mina)
- There are probably a billion more. Haven't read this one in a while.
Cliches in Interview with the Vampire:
- MC knocked unconscious
- Old, gloomy lair
- Brooding rich people
- Plot device to give characters endless riches
Cliches in Lord of the Rings:
- MC knocked unconscious (multiple times)
- Old, gloomy lair
- Wise old wizard (was already cliche at the time it was written)
- Quirky sidekick
- >>chosen one<<
- Did I mention: the Ultimate Chosen One Tale?
Honestly, I'm having more fun writing this post than I probably will actually arguing here.
But the point is that cliches are not always a bad thing. The problem with using cliches is that people don't know how to use them in ways that we won't pick up on. When Harry Potter, the Chosen One, is knocked unconscious after a Quidditch match, we don't notice. But when Bella Swan, the Chosen One, is knocked unconscious beause ~reasons~, we notice, and we roll our eyes. It's a matter of context and clever usage.
I say there's no reason to be afraid of using cliches if you know how to do it right. Cliches can be helpful, even. And when you read into a lot of great, well-loved stories, you sometimes find cliches at their cores. It's not a bad thing. All it means is that people knew how to use cliches and made it work for them.
I think the clichés in Dracula you mention are from the movie "Bram Stoker's Dracula," which ironically veers far off what Mr. Stoker actually wrote. No reincarnation or suicide for love that I recall in the book, and I don't think anyone gets to be the Chosen One.
Now it does have a Crusty Old Mentor, and the Crazy Guy Who Knows Crucial Information but No One Listens Because He's Crazy.
Now it does have a Crusty Old Mentor, and the Crazy Guy Who Knows Crucial Information but No One Listens Because He's Crazy.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no
My husband is not a writer and only lately a reader (dyslexia)
He rolls his eyes/flings a book more than I do. For different reasons, usually, granted, but cliche etc has been in the consistent top three.
"readers" is a massively diverse group. Some won't care. Some will.
How much you care is up to you, but not telling the same old story with the same old characters/situations, well, it'll probably get you more fans than trotting out the old stuff that makes others roll their eyes and not buy it. Besides, if you do trot out the old stuff -- it's not really yours (unless you do it very differently and then...you're probably not using the cliches)
In the end -- write the book you want to read. To be fair we all have some cliches we can go for. *is a sucker for demented mentors, noble warriors and lovable rogues)
I'd be flattered, if that was me because I wish I'd thought of it. Who the hell has that under their avatar? Stormy???
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Whoops. My brain compressed stuff clearly.
I just went and googled "dark and stormy knight" and turned up a Dungeons and Dragon game and a book about Batman and Robin and didn't go beyond the first page of an awful lot.
How 'bout the novel starts right smack in the middle of a battle?
Is that a clichee? Or is it dumb and weird?
Is that a clichee? Or is it dumb and weird?
Not cliched, but you would run the risk of readers not caring what happens in that battle. When you start with an action scene, you still have to put your POV character front and center. Don't just have them go through the battle. Give us a reason to care about them and about the result of the battle. Tell us what they're fighting for. A battle alone does not make an interesting beginning (in most cases).
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This has been a fun thread to read through.
Nina Martin, House of Anubis
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
From tvtropes:
Sailor Moon
From my own knowledge:
Sarah Kerrigan, Starcraft (chosen by the Overmind for unknown reasons and subsequently the being upon which the entire region of space hinges on, literally determining the fate of multiple intergalactic species and possibly the universe itself)
Avatar: The Legend of Korra
Several characters from Magic: The Gathering could qualify, depending on how strict you are, though the constantly shifting nature of that universe makes it difficult to really declare one.
Jean Grey, X-Men (in some story arcs, not all; see Ultimate X-Men for an example)
The Narnia girls (Aslan picks them specifically, and there are some related prophecies)
Characters from Tamora Pierce's books (check Daughter of the Lioness for an example)
Anna Marshall, the Soprano Sorceress
Vin from the Mistborn series could qualify
Allana Solo from Fate of the Jedi
Serana from Skyrim: Dawnguard bears some "Chosen One" similarities
Samus, in Metroid Prime
The Exile in Knights of the Old Republic is female, according to official canon
The Warden from Dragon Age is a female elf, according to official canon
Kara Thrace (among others) from Battlestar Galactica
River in Firefly may qualify (particularly when considering her role in the movie Serenity)
Emma Swan in Once Upon a Time
Probably more, but meh. That's enough. There sure are more male "chosen ones" out there, but there are some women, too.
Could be cliche. As mentioned, it depends on how you do it.
From Wikipedia:
Nina Martin, House of Anubis
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
From tvtropes:
Sailor Moon
From my own knowledge:
Sarah Kerrigan, Starcraft (chosen by the Overmind for unknown reasons and subsequently the being upon which the entire region of space hinges on, literally determining the fate of multiple intergalactic species and possibly the universe itself)
Avatar: The Legend of Korra
Several characters from Magic: The Gathering could qualify, depending on how strict you are, though the constantly shifting nature of that universe makes it difficult to really declare one.
Jean Grey, X-Men (in some story arcs, not all; see Ultimate X-Men for an example)
The Narnia girls (Aslan picks them specifically, and there are some related prophecies)
Characters from Tamora Pierce's books (check Daughter of the Lioness for an example)
Anna Marshall, the Soprano Sorceress
Vin from the Mistborn series could qualify
Allana Solo from Fate of the Jedi
Serana from Skyrim: Dawnguard bears some "Chosen One" similarities
Samus, in Metroid Prime
The Exile in Knights of the Old Republic is female, according to official canon
The Warden from Dragon Age is a female elf, according to official canon
Kara Thrace (among others) from Battlestar Galactica
River in Firefly may qualify (particularly when considering her role in the movie Serenity)
Emma Swan in Once Upon a Time
Probably more, but meh. That's enough. There sure are more male "chosen ones" out there, but there are some women, too.
Ah, yes... I understand this extremely well. Trouble is this: the battle scene ends with a disaster which sets in motion the story, so it might be really hard to hook the reader without revealing too much
They could be fighting for anything, that's not important.I could use a motto or a quote at the beginning, to hint at what's coming, because the battle would stretch on a couple of pages and we don't want the reader to get bored before he reaches disaster part... At least that's how I see it.