• Guest please check The Index before starting a thread.

The Zharmae Publishing Press

traveo2343

Publisher at TZPP
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Messages
140
Reaction score
0
Location
Saint Paul
Website
www.zharmae.com
To be fair, that Club Z listing is a year old. It's not clear whether it's still active.

Pulling information from the www.zharmae.com URL will yield out of date information, and does not serve to further meaningful conversation or value for an author who might consider working with us based on how we currently operate. The website should redirect to www.tzppbooks.com, if anyone is not experiencing being redirected, please let me know.

Club Z was folded about a year ago, the operational costs failed to yield movement, this was the last hold over from our efforts in direct wholesaling to bookshops and consumers. As mentioned earlier bookshops really only want to order from Ingram or Baker & Taylor or some other distributor/wholesaler they already have an account with.

Again, not a flounce, you will notice, in this thread, that I have routinely taken breaks from AW to focus on work.

So, this leads me to a final request for this round of conversation, are there any direct questions that anyone would like answered? If so, I'll respond over the weekend, then will be gone until the summer.
 

amergina

Pittsburgh Strong
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Messages
15,599
Reaction score
2,471
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Website
www.annazabo.com
Maybe you should excise the material on the old website? Because your redirect does not work.
 

PeteMC

@PeteMC666
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 26, 2011
Messages
3,003
Reaction score
367
Location
UK
Website
talonwraith.wordpress.com
Two different sites for me too, also the http://tzppbooks.com/ page just loads a sort of spinning blob thing and sits there for almost a minute before the actual content loads. If I was a customer I'd have got bored and gone somewhere else before that happened.
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
Two different sites for me too, also the http://tzppbooks.com/ page just loads a sort of spinning blob thing and sits there for almost a minute before the actual content loads. If I was a customer I'd have got bored and gone somewhere else before that happened.

1 minute 25 seconds for the first content to appear at http://tzppbooks.com/. 3 minutes 10 seconds before it fully loaded.

This with the current version of Firefox, Windows 10, and DSL.

One obvious problem: The "bestseller" thumbnails at the bottom of the page are actually 1800x2648. Why not use thumbnails as thumbnails, linked to the full-sized covers?
 

HapiSofi

Hagiographically Advantaged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
2,093
Reaction score
676
I missed Old Hack's 2015 post on the physical production of Zharmae books. Reading it now, especially the parts about their typesetting and frontmatter, makes me want to fall over and thrash around on the floor. All the things Old Hack mentions are violations of rules, guidelines, or standard practices in book production.

I have overseen the frontmatter of hundreds of books. If you don't have the rules of book design burned into your memory, your blood may not run cold when you read:
Things which should be on a right-hand page are placed on a left-hand page, rather than a blank page being used; and most of the books seem to have several title pages, some which give the author’s name and some which don’t. For example, in one book the dedication is on a left-hand page; the next page has the heading “Foreword” followed by a quote, but no foreword; the next page (another left-hand page) has the book’s title again; then the next page is headed “Chapter 1”, and here the book starts.

--but I promise you, that would look wrong if you found it in a book you were browsing. You might not know why, but you'd know it was wrong.
 
Last edited:

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Pulling information from the www.zharmae.com URL will yield out of date information, and does not serve to further meaningful conversation or value for an author who might consider working with us based on how we currently operate. The website should redirect to www.tzppbooks.com, if anyone is not experiencing being redirected, please let me know.

You shouldn't have out-of-date information on any of your websites, and shouldn't complain when people refer to it if you do.

There is no redirect working for me, either.

Club Z was folded about a year ago, the operational costs failed to yield movement, this was the last hold over from our efforts in direct wholesaling to bookshops and consumers. As mentioned earlier bookshops really only want to order from Ingram or Baker & Taylor or some other distributor/wholesaler they already have an account with.

I know bookshops only want to deal with established wholesalers or distributors: I told you that quite recently, when you mentioned that you kept stock at your house to fulfill orders with.

And a publisher which thinks that an odd sales scheme which masquerades as a book club will work as a wholesaler is showing a lot of ignorance about how the business works.

I missed Old Hack's 2015 post on the physical production of Zharmae books. Reading it now, especially the parts about their typesetting and frontmatter, makes me want to fall over and thrash around on the floor. All the things Old Hack mentions are violations of rules, guidelines, or standard practices in book production.

I have overseen the frontmatter of hundreds of books. If you don't have the rules of book design burned into your memory, your blood may not run cold when you read:

--but I promise you, that would look wrong if you found it in a book you were browsing. You might not know why, but you'd know it was wrong.

Hapi, you're right. Those books are so wrong that potential readers would be put off by them, without knowing why, and without even considering the writing. It was confusing.

I was concerned that I was being too rigid in my assessment of the books: I know I notice stuff that most people wouldn't, because I have worked in publishing for a while. And so I asked my sons what they thought, and a few of my friends, and every single person who saw Zharmae's books said they looked wrong in some way. They often couldn't pinpoint what the problems were, but they all said they wouldn't buy the books if they found them in a bookshop.

Because of Zharmae's lack of sales efforts they are unlikely to find them in a bookshop, but still. It was an interesting exercise. Sad for the writers, but very informative in terms of Zharmae's ability to gain a sector of the market.
 

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
18,981
Reaction score
6,933
Location
At some altitude
Website
www.jamie-mason.com
If you don't have the rules of book design burned into your memory, your blood may not run cold when you read:

--but I promise you, that would look wrong if you found it in a book you were browsing. You might not know why, but you'd know it was wrong.[/COLOR]

It's funny that you mentioned this. Just last weekend, someone showed me a hardcover that had been self-published and, although the cover image and style were nice enough, everything about the book felt wrong. It just didn't feel like a book you'd pick up in a bookstore.

I opened it up and there were some of these irregularities - bizarro front matter: blank pages, screwy margins, titles and dedications on the left hand pages. It was like seeing someone whose ears are on upside down. It takes a moment to nail down what the problem is, but only an instant to register that something's not quite right.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
It was like seeing someone whose ears are on upside down. It takes a moment to nail down what the problem is, but only an instant to register that something's not quite right.

Exactly!

Good trade publishers spend money on things like good design and typesetting because it increases the sales of their books. If there were no financial gain in them, they wouldn't do it. When new or smaller publishers skimp on these things, they often don't realise how badly it will affect their sales.
 
Last edited:

HapiSofi

Hagiographically Advantaged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
2,093
Reaction score
676
Why the frontmatter thing is important:

The varieties, formats, and proper sequence of frontmatter pages is an incredibly basic subject. Almost all stylebooks cover it. Few readers consciously know the rules, but all readers know when they're being broken -- for instance, if a book leaves a recto (right-hand) page blank, or starts an important section on a verso (left-hand) page.

Many of these rules (and customary practices) date back to the days of hand-copied books, or the early days of printing. It's rare to see a book that doesn't follow them, which is why readers know on a gut level that there's something suspect about a book that breaks them. It's off, somehow; not right, not real, not professional. Mysteriously but unmistakably wrong.

Small-press and self-published books have to look real. Too many readers have gotten burned by amateurish, self-published stinkers. If a book looks wrong, potential readers won't trust it, and thus won't connect with it emotionally, which is the essential step before buying it.

Many symptoms, one diagnosis.

Zharmae's been in business for years. During that time, Travis Grundy hasn't bothered to acquaint himself with basic book layout. He hasn't figured out what distributors do (they're extremely important), or how per-unit costs vary in relation to the size of the print run, or how many copies his competitors sell of what kind of books.

At this point, it doesn't matter what he promises, or what he intends/intended, or whether he's a good person, or what hazily speculative ideas he thinks it might be interesting to try in the future. None of those things matter. What does matter is that he's had years to learn how to be a publisher, and he hasn't learned a blessed thing.

It's bad enough that he started ignorant, given that he's gambling with other people's books. If he's stayed ignorant, there's no hope.

No one should entrust their writing to Zharmae. If they've already done so, they should get it back. My advice is to start working on that now.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Zharmae's been in business for years. During that time, Travis Grundy hasn't bothered to acquaint himself with basic book layout. He hasn't figured out what distributors do (they're extremely important), or how per-unit costs vary in relation to the size of the print run, or how many copies his competitors sell of what kind of books.

At this point, it doesn't matter what he promises, or what he intends/intended, or whether he's a good person, or what hazily speculative ideas he thinks it might be interesting to try in the future. None of those things matter. What does matter is that he's had years to learn how to be a publisher, and he hasn't learned a blessed thing.

It's bad enough that he started ignorant, given that he's gambling with other people's books. If he's stayed ignorant, there's no hope.

No one should entrust their writing to Zharmae. If they've already done so, they should get it back. My advice is to start working on that now.

Yes.

(My emphasis.)
 

domynoe

Registered
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
10
Reaction score
1
I actually had hopes for this press. After some mix ups, I did get an acceptance, but then the contract came. Honestly, it's more than awful. I indicated I was open to negotiation, but was unwilling to take the contract as is.




Rights: they ask for lifetime for the SERIES.


The "net" in net revenues isn't defined.


Reversion/cancellation of contract: The publisher can do this at any time, but authors have to pay $5000. There's no reversion for going out of business or declaring bankruptcy. If a book goes out of production, the author can request it be put back into print, but even if they decide against doing so, they can hang onto the book for 12 months.


A couple of clauses prevent the author from independent publishing or signing with another house,.


The option for the next book allows them to take 6 months to decide whether or not to accept/publish it.


Zharmae takes ownership over the title, the author's nom de plum, and the series. If the author decides to leave Zharmae, they can hire someone else to write in the author's world. In addition, they can use the author's characters, etc in anyway they wish.


Royalties. I was told on the phone $1/copy regardless of promotion prices etc. While this works for ebooks (which appear to sell at 4.99 each), this is a rip off for hard copy sales (at 15.99/book, from what I've seen at B&N). And according to the actual contract, it isn't $1/copy regardless of promotional prices. Instead, promotional copies are subject to a percentage royalty.




These were the most egregious parts of the contract found on a skim by a contract expert. In general, their response was "we won't negotiate/strike that." The exceptions were clause 33, which would mean I would have to submit any additional books the traditional way rather than through my editor. They didn't even address the issue of taking ownership of my title, pen name, characters, etc.


I politely declined once their response made it clear they were unwilling to negotiate. I can't understand why other authors were willing to sign this. Regardless of how nice the people working the press are now, as Dorchester, Ellora's Cave, and other presses prove, when the shit hits the fan, it's what's in the contract that counts, and this one takes everything from the author and ties his/her hands forever.
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com

domynoe

Registered
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
10
Reaction score
1
I was informed in one of my FB groups that he supposedly said they have a new contract. If this is the new contract (offered to me just last week), then the old one must have REALLY been scary. He and his staff are definitely tone deaf and apparently don't care that people are spreading the word to not sign with them.

Then again, they DO have people signing with them, so I guess they're not too worried about getting authors who are desperate enough to accept any contract over the risk of no contract.
 

mlachi

M. Lachi
Registered
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Location
New York, NY
Website
www.mlachi.com
If the author decides to leave Zharmae, they can hire someone else to write in the author's world. In addition, they can use the author's characters, etc in anyway they wish

Yikes!

Reading through this forum, I continued to feel a little sympathy for the publisher, rather impressed at his politeness and continued engagement with the thread regardless of the continued backlash. However, if after (what looks like) over five years of very frank, unapologetic advice from authors (on a website upon which any author doing even the most preliminary of research on this publisher will stumble) the publishing house still presents prospective authors with such a sophomoric contract, writers may be better off with a more knowledgeable publisher.
 

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle
Absolute Sage
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
25,582
Reaction score
3,785
Location
New Hampshire
Website
madhousemanor.wordpress.com
Then again, they DO have people signing with them, so I guess they're not too worried about getting authors who are desperate enough to accept any contract over the risk of no contract.

All too often I hear from authors who have learned, to their sorrow, that the only thing worse than remaining unpublished is to be published badly.
 

akaria

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Messages
579
Reaction score
61
Location
Brooklyn represent!
This publisher has some giant, clanging, wall shattering balls to even hint that his contract is in any way fair to authors. How dare he. He, who can't get books into bookstores nationwide and stores them in his garage, has the nerve -- the absolute nerve -- to claim lifetime rights to a series? He, who has two recent releases hovering around the 500k mark on Amazon, has a contract that prevents authors from self publishing or signing with another publisher?

I have a garbage can full of snot-filled tissues that's more useful than publishing with Travis.
 

domynoe

Registered
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
10
Reaction score
1
They claim that's not what the contract does, but the contract expert disagrees. I know who I'm going to believe. lol
 

Viridian

local good boy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Messages
3,076
Reaction score
557
Hey, something horrible/hilarious just happened, and I wanted to update you.

Earlier in the thread, an illustrator named Caelicorn was mentioned. She produced three covers for Zharmae. Although Zharmae told her that she would receive hundreds of dollars per cover, she was paid about $13 instead. The whole discussion is on page 20.

Travis butted in. He said, essentially, that it was her fault for signing the contract, because she's an attorney from Australia and she should've known what she was signing. A few days ago, Caelicorn contacted me as well as a forum moderator. She says she is not, nor has she ever been, an attorney. Hilariously, she is not even from Australia, so I have no idea where that came from. Caelicorn is a full-time illustrator from New Zealand.

Regardless of her education or background, I think it's pretty scummy to blame someone for getting scammed.

More information:

Caelicorn also mentioned that other artists have contacted her about Zharmae before. It sounds like the same thing happened to them. They were told they would make several hundreds of dollars off of each cover, but they received only a tiny portion of that. I can't name names (I don't have permission to drag other people into this) but it sounds like this has happened before.
 
Last edited:

ctripp

Christine Tripp
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
493
Reaction score
30
Location
Ottawa, Ontario Canada
Website
www.christinetripp.com
>told they would make hundreds of dollars, made $13<
It sounds like the Illustrators agreed to take a small percentage of sales rather then a flat fee? "hundreds" sounds so up in the air, like there was no agreement for payment amount.

Edited to add that I went back to the discussion you pointed to Viridian, on page 20. I should have done that FIRST.
Cover Illustrators are always paid a flat fee (Illustrators for pic books are paid an advance and the same royalties as the Author)
That is awful that these Zharmae Illustrators agreed to work in the hopes of the books they Illustrated selling:(
Does this "Publisher" financially invest anything in these books??? It doesn't sound like it.
 
Last edited:

RedWombat

Runs With Scissors
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
1,197
Reaction score
327
Location
North Carolina
Website
www.ursulavernon.com
I had insomnia last night and read this whole thread.

...wow.

That was a thing.

I gotta admit, because I'm that sort of person, I went through and counted--Travis mentions his background in Economics four times since page 13, attempts to explain tenets of economic theory three times, plus the article, which...well.

Now, I'm all for being self-taught! I took all of two drawing classes and a color theory class in college, which is to art school as a chicken is to a T-Rex, and I still made a living for years as an illustrator (still do, partly.)

I don't know that I'd start an art agency, though. Not with other people's livelihoods on the line. I do know what I don't know. But that's me--I am highly averse to other people's risk. (I was offered an art director position once, and flung myself backward so violently that my chair dented the wall.)

I definitely wouldn't start a publishing company, insist that the problem is that nobody is looking at publishing as an art--royalties on gross are aesthetically displeasing! The sensibilities rebel! Net is more elegantly composed all around! My left-facing chapter beginnings are avant-garde!--and expect to get anywhere, particularly when people in the field kept trying to explain for five years why I was wrong. Nor would I write articles about how my publishing system was correct, and the key to bestsellers was to mix in .33% of raw umber with every color. (7% for some authors.)

Really, though, this isn't about the teaching or education involved--I also wouldn't try to claim that my measly little BA in anthropology would make me an authority on anything much. If I tried to write articles on contemporary archaeology, I'd expect to be soundly ignored, given that I haven't been on a dig outside a flowerbed in nearly twenty years, and should I ever attempt to claim to Old Hack that my background in anthropology means her publishing knowledge is wrong, someone please crack me over the head with an Australopithecus thigh bone.

(Mind you, were I so inclined to start a publisher, I also wouldn't pay illustrators on royalties, because who am I to betray my people so? Accepting art payment royalties, in my experience, means the company goes under a year later and you get a nice stack of papers from the state explaining that you're now a creditor and feel free to show up at the hearing to stake your claim on their assets.)

So...uh...quite a thing. Yes.