The No News is No News Purgatory Thread, Vol. 7

Amarie said:

very curious about this. is it something about the characters or the storyline that you wouldn't have chosen?

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Mainly the standard of writing.

Foggy brain today. I think it's because I've had really just off kilter dreams every night this week. Like last night. Talking with a woman about brands of milk while she was trying on various blue jeans.

Morning, purgs! My humble plan to have SunnaMom and BF over for a belated birthday dinner turned, post innocuous-comment-to-SunnaSister, into a loud 7-person bash with lots of wine and me frantically creating home-made pizzas out of whatever was in the fridge. My poor mother got fairly sloshed. I hope she wasn't cursing me when she got up at 4 am for work this morning.

In less hangover-y news, smoked-gouda and caramelized onion pizza on beer crust is definitely one of my better inventions.


{{{Para}}}, I don't think I can say it better than everyone else has said it. Hang in there, and maybe take a break for a bit. I needed one this past year for similar reasons, and even knowing my small press attempt will probably go nowhere, I feel a million times better.

Kris -- eek. This guy's behavior is setting off my squick alarm. Take care.

Lily, I'm glad you're feeling better today. Sorry you're going through this.

Becky, ugh n having to wait so long, but your agent sounds very dedicated to this book, which is awesome.

Fire - damn, woman. That is one hell of a cover.

Yay Sammy!

Mornin', Purgies!!! TGITH!!!

More {{{Para}}}. My little 2 pence, like Blong said, it's not a waste. Nine years and 8 books ago I thought my first MS was a total waste of time. I had put so much time & energy into it and nada. Worst of all, I was convinced that this was the best I would ever do. Of course, all of that was horseshit. That book made me a better writer and story teller. Each of the many MSs did. Anything that makes you better is never a waste.

More {{{Lily}}}

{{{KT}}}

Yay, Sammy

Ugh trends and working/not working premises. I really think that's probably one of the toughest things about writing, because you simply never know what will resonate with an agent, an editor or the market on the whole.

Also, Fire, I'm with Maryn, I'm taking an odd sense of encouragement out of this. Though I definitely feel you on wanting to smack some authors who think submitting to epubs means they don't actually need to...y'know, know how to write.

We have the most gorgeous weather out and I abandoned the laptop for a long walk and playing with the puppy. So here are some more pictures.

That's pretty much what the centre of the town I live in looks like. Lots of old buildings like the old city hall:



And lots of green surrounding everything:



And the puppy pic of the day: My mom wasn't kidding when she asked me to watch him while she was trying to get some actual work done around the basilica. Apparently the broom is the puppy's arch nemesis.

Great pics, Dys!

Awesome cover, Fire!

Doing another post and dash to share a GORGEOUS TED video on nature. It will give you shivers. Clovia and Red, it has an amazing newly discovered species of bat at minute 6 or so.

Rab and Fire, I understand why an editor or agent would WANT to love a book, but making an editor or agent happy isn't the purpose of a publishing enterprise. It's producing profitable books.

I don't love every project I work on, but sometimes it's for the good of the company. Now, publishing is different. (It's always different.) Editors are successful if what they buy is what sells, and for some of them, they might use "love" to describe that quality, or they might have an uncanny sense where what the truly love is what the public loves.

I know this is rather contrarian, especially since I think (although I have not been proven right) that the books I write are more of the editor- or librarian-pleasing type than commercial books that reluctant young readers clamor to buy. But I bring it up because it's all part of the puzzle of why and how publishing works or doesn't work. But for most other businesses, decisions are not based on "love." And it's not really true for publishing either, since books editors "love" get passed up all the time.

It's clearly an evil broom. The puppeh just knows.

dystophil said:

Ugh trends and working/not working premises. I really think that's probably one of the toughest things about writing, because you simply never know what will resonate with an agent, an editor or the market on the whole.

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Right, you don't know, but it's part of the game. I hate the advice I see about how you should write what you love to write and if you write it well enough, it will get published. No. Publishing is a game and you have to know how it works and have a strategy to play the game.

Kell, that's why I tried to include something in that post about the 'love' being tied up in the book's marketability as well. Both agents and editors get a surfeit of projects that are technically competent, marketable, etc. From there, they pick and choose the ones they really feel like they can champion.

kellion92 said:

Rab and Fire, I understand why an editor or agent would WANT to love a book, but making an editor or agent happy isn't the purpose of a publishing enterprise. It's producing profitable books.

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Oh, I agree. I read a submission with that in the back of my mind. But you need an agreeable MC, good writing, strong voice, and a compelling story. That's what I'm looking for. I'm reading stuff that I wouldn't normally read, but, if it's well written and has all of the above, I'll offer for it. There's always something in a successful submission that calls to me.

Then we all agree. All books exist somewhere along the art/commerce continuum. And I imagine there are editors/agents who only think about their own taste, and that's fine if their instincts are good, and others who think about market and sales first, which is essential for nonfiction, for example. But most of them (and us as writers) live in the middle.

ETA: I mean, I WANT to be commercial. That's why I wish I could test my ideas because I just don't know what will sell.

This continuing discussion is making me remember how when I was in college, I wrote my first draft of the book now on submission. I used it for my senior project, and my creative writing adviser politely took me aside and suggested I wasn't yet fully equipped to write about two thirty-and-forty-something characters and maybe I should try writing protags my own age. I got all huffy and offended and OF COURSE she was wrong.

Now I can see that she was only partially incorrect. She was right, I wasn't yet mature enough to have the insight I really needed into their lives. But she was wrong to suggest I try to keep things at my own "level." Shooting for a higher mark, damn the torpedoes, taught me sooooo much. Nobody even took a second glance when I queried that manuscript back then, so I trunked it, but when I pulled it out five years later I could still see the potential, and I still loved the characters. And I had gained the insight I needed. Of course I ended up rewriting it a couple of times after that, but by then I wasn't married to that single original vision. I was determined to make it something real and cohesive.

So was my initial time and effort a waste? Oh, absolutely not. Even the querying part taught me a huge amount about the process and expectations of the industry. And I doubt I'd have gone back to that germ of an idea if I hadn't written that first draft. But having that manuscript sitting around made me determined not to let all my work go to waste. And even if it doesn't sell I know it hasn't been. I've learned so much. I love the book hugely. I'll print out my own copy and keep it and someday it'll get out there.

Amarie said:

Right, you don't know, but it's part of the game. I hate the advice I see about how you should write what you love to write and if you write it well enough, it will get published. No. Publishing is a game and you have to know how it works and have a strategy to play the game.

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I think this is some of the worst advice given to writers. Sure, some people are lucky and love what sells. Most will not be.

Dys, beautiful photos!

Absolutely mind-numbingly boring work today. And with the rain, I'm having a hard time staying awake.

ink wench said:

I think this is some of the worst advice given to writers. Sure, some people are lucky and love what sells. Most will not be.

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Of course, the best advice is to write something you love AND can sell.

And yes, I forgot - Dys I love your pics!!! The doggie and broom one is hilarious.

Hoping today will be better than the past few days. I've been super emotional lately, not sleeping well, and Sharkbite hasn't been napping so I haven't been able to cram in any extra during the day. Hormones are making my entire face break out and I'm crying at the drop of a hat. But I got a little over 8 hours of sleep last night, didn't wake up every hour to pee, and Sharkbite's going to daycare for the morning. I was planning on taking some "me time" and going to get a facial but now I'm thinking more that I'll take my me time and just stay here and get some writing done. Because that's important for my mental health.

JoNightshade said:

Of course, the best advice is to write something you love AND can sell.

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That's it! I'm flexible. If I can sell it, I'd love it.

Sorry you're not feeling great, Jo.

Dys, those pictures are amazing.

{{{Jo}}}

kellion92 said:

That's it! I'm flexible. If I can sell it, I'd love it.

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I'm the same.

I mostly write what I love, but... during a particularly frustrating, lagging, nothing-period of submission waiting time last year, I actually spent a weekend making lists of all the best-sellers in my genre. I took note of key aspects in the story that appealed to readers, compared it all to my own work and then set about 'best-sellerising' it (without killing what I loved about it).
It sort of helped (I landed an agent) but, I'm still waiting...

(((Jo))) Hope you get some writing done and feel better soon

i sort of abide by the write what you love
and are passionate advice. but i don't mean
don't be savvy about your market at all. i just
mean for me, if i didn't love it, i most likely wouldn't
finish it. i also am not full of ideas and can be a pitch
kind of author.

of course, i'm not writing to survive either.

still, the situation is different for every writer.
so adjust all advice accordingly.

also, in no way am i saying writing what you
love well enough will get it sold. ha!

fire, congrats on another fabulous cover!!

dys, i love the fotos!

more volunteering and novel critiquing
for me today. /bootay shake!

celebrating our 15th anniversary this
weekend with a posh dinner and avengers!
yay! =D

Amarie said:

Right, you don't know, but it's part of the game. I hate the advice I see about how you should write what you love to write and if you write it well enough, it will get published. No. Publishing is a game and you have to know how it works and have a strategy to play the game.

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Oh, I agree. I may be hopelessly stubborn sometimes, but I get that much.

kellion92 said:

That's it! I'm flexible. If I can sell it, I'd love it.

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Yep. This.

Really, I'd join team "It sells and I love it" if I could pick.

Thanks for the picture love. (And yes, that broom is clearly evil and a threat to our dusty paths. )

Hope you feel better soon, Jo.