New Amazon Rating Row

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Renee Collins

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I don't like reading reviews before I read a book because it bugs me when I notice things people commented on. Especially if it taints my enjoyment of the book.

I do, however, like to read reviews of books I've read. It's always interesting to see what other people think.
 

aruna

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I do, however, like to read reviews of books I've read. It's always interesting to see what other people think.

I'm like that too: I read more after than before. Before, I just check to see that the book wasn't entirely awful, and that it something I might like. After, I read in detail, looking for reviews that encapsule my own thoughts.

Not to :deadhorse but...

I checked out ms alison's book on goodreads and who would have thought it? The ratings there are WORSE than on amazon, with 8% five stars, 13% one stars, and the weight of the ratings being with 3 stars, 39%. So that pretty much put pays to the idea of a consolidated attack through Amazon.
 

gothicangel

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I checked out ms alison's book on goodreads and who would have thought it? The ratings there are WORSE than on amazon, with 8% five stars, 13% one stars, and the weight of the ratings being with 3 stars, 39%. So that pretty much put pays to the idea of a consolidated attack through Amazon.


That's it, after my seminar I'm off to Waterstone's to read the first chapter. I just can't resist anymore. :D
 

starscape

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Authors hiring agencies to publish fake customer reviews

I read these today. Frankly, I don't like it. Not only the Internet should stay neutral, but also these PR companies would damage whatever new writers do to build relationship with future readers.

Authors hiring agencies to publish fake customer reviews

Posted on Tuesday, November 30 2010 @ 07:33:10 CET by Thomas De Maesschalck

People often accuse reviewers of being dishonest but it appears users reviews aren't objective either. An article at Mail Online reveals there are agencies that charge £5,000 or more to publish fake book reviews on the pages of rival publishers on sites like Amazon:

Authors are turning on each other, agencies are charging up to £5,000 to place favourable fake reviews and Amazon has recruited a team of amateur critics to restore the balance.

Nathan Barker, of Reputation 24/7, offers a service starting at £5,000. He said: ‘First we set up accounts. For a romance novel we’d pick seven female profiles and three males.

‘We’d say we like this book but add a tiny bit of criticism and compare it to another book.’ Mr Barker claims this is common practice among publishers.
The original article on Mail Online is here.

Women writers at war over fake book reviews on Amazon

By Nick Fagge

Last updated at 1:02 PM on 29th November 2010

The story involves subterfuge, jealousy and dirty tricks in the world of literature.

And its unlikely setting is the readers’ reviews section on Amazon.

Alongside details of a book for sale, the website offers supposedly independent verdicts from customers, including a rating of from one to five stars.

However, rival publishers are accused of hijacking the system to praise their own volumes and disparage the opposition.

Authors are turning on each other, agencies are charging up to £5,000 to place favourable fake reviews and Amazon has recruited a team of amateur critics to restore the balance.

One author, Rosie Alison, became so incensed by a series of barbed reviews on the website that she called in investigators to see if rival publishers were behind the stinging criticism.

Miss Alison is a producer for the company behind the Harry Potter films.

Her first novel, The Very Thought Of You, went virtually unnoticed when it was published.

But the book, about an eight-year-old World War II evacuee, became the target of vicious assaults after it was long-listed for the Orange prize for women’s fiction this year.

By yesterday it had attracted 119 reviews on Amazon – 50 per cent more than the book which won the prize, The Lacuna by Barbara Kingsolver.

While many praised its qualities, 16 reviewers give the book the minimum one star.

One compares Miss Alison’s writing to Mills and Boon novels, while another claims she ‘has no feel for fiction at all, no sense of what makes a plot tick along, no flair for language’.

Another implies that the author’s success is connected to her marriage to Tim Waterstone, founder of the chain of High Street bookshops.

Miss Alison, 46, is said to be in dispute with Amazon about the hostile reviews and has approached Kwikchex, a company which specialises in protecting online reputations, run by Chris Emmins.
He said: ‘I looked at some of them and certainly the wording and the dates of the postings were indicative of a malicious attack.’

Another author, Polly Samson, 48, has suffered sneering reviews on Amazon because she is married to David Gilmour, the Pink Floyd guitarist.

Her most recent book, Perfect Lives, published this month, was the target of some vicious criticism.

One reviewer, Felicia Davis-Burden, said: ‘Every story seems to be a variation of Samson fictionalising the life she probably has as Mrs D Gilmour. I’m sorry, Polly, but this book bored me. You need to leave home.’

Earlier this year historian Simon Winder forced Amazon to remove a critical review of his book Germania after he discovered it was written by a rival academic – Diane Purkiss, of Keble College, Oxford.

Guidelines set by Amazon state that reviews should not be posted by anyone with a financial interest or a competing book.

But the online giant accepts anonymous reviews from anyone with a customer account.

This has led PR firms to provide favourable reviews of new books, at a price.

Nathan Barker, of Reputation 24/7, offers a service starting at £5,000.

He said: ‘First we set up accounts. For a romance novel we’d pick seven female profiles and three males.

‘We’d say we like this book but add a tiny bit of criticism and compare it to another book.’

Mr Barker claims this is common practice among publishers.
Source:
http://www.dvhardware.net/article46782.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...k-reviewing-vicious-free-readers-victims.html
 
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gothicangel

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I agree. The only person quoted as saying the practice is common is a guy who is selling it.

My reaction exactly.

I don't believe a legit publisher would waste their time doing this. Now scum like the guy quote above is another matter.

An author who would pay for such a service reeks of desperation.
 

aruna

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By the way, the DM article went (somewhat) viral yesterday -- it was all over google, in various UK newspaper and blogs, all linking back to the DM. I think it mighy be backfiring somewhat, because in today's Guardian Ms Alison is backtracking a little:

  • But press reports that she had hired a private detective and was in dispute with Amazon over the issue were inaccurate, Alison said, and she did not believe the reviews were being posted by a rival publisher as had been alleged. "I have put through a request for Amazon to look at some reviews which seem suspicious. There is a process going on, but I hoped it would go through in private," she said. "I am perfectly open to critical reviews when stated under somebody's real name, but over a number of months I have had a few reviews that have made me suspicious, because the phrasing was similar and the names involved do not appear to have reviewed any other titles on the site. I let it go for some time but it was getting me down. A friend said 'Do something about this anonymous assassin'." Alison added: "It's a personal thing and I feel distressed. It could be someone I know."
The thing is, all authors are in love with their first novel, and yes, negative reviews do hurt (hurt you, the author, that is, not necessarily sales). But you have to swallow it and move on. Especially if they are far outnumbered by positive ones, as in this case.
 
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starscape

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Oops, thank the moderator for merging the threads.

Well, I agree that such an act would damage a writer's reputation, which is almost like a brand.

As I remember, many companies in other industries attacked each other. Mac VS PC for example. Most of the time this kind of attack annoys the customers, really; it doesn't improve the sell.

Some of you above said the writers were desperate to pay for 5 stars and reviews. IMO, these writers are not ready to write their next novels.
 

gothicangel

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Thanks for that Aruna. Left me feeling: 'yeah right.' :D

I find the whole thing mind boggling. As Starscape points out it only annoys customers. If I go into a bookshop and see two similar titles I like, I will buy both.

As the Guardian points out, publishers do post favourable reviews of their books. They make a point that they do no post attacking reviews. What would be the point? There is no guarantee the put-off reader would purchase their title instead.
 
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Jack Parker

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When you're dealing with ANY and EVERY type of online forum, whether it's for reviews, discussions or ratings of any kind, you'll ALWAYS find a good number of people who are so addicted to anonymity on the internet and feelings of superiority towards others that they'll leave bogus, high-and-mighty comments. For the love of pork rinds, just read a few comments on YouTube and you'll see tan alarming number of folks resort to junior high cursing and name-calling. They're their own self-appointed judge, jury and executioner on everything.

We live in a world where, deep down, people feel inferior. The way many choose to feel better about themselves is to bring others down. Their joy comes from other people's pain and failures. They lie in wait for celebrities to make mistakes. They revel in dirt. If it's not there, they'll make it up or twist something innocent into something vicious and horrible. I'd better stop there or I could go on and on.

The real question for me is this: Do publishers pay any attention to reviews on Amazon? They shouldn't. People do pay others to write both good and bad reviews. CNet is full of them. Companies will give their own products rave reviews while disguising themselves as a random, or enthusiastic, customer.

It's hard not to read reviews about our own work but it's in our best interest to avoid them. Let sales be your thermostat, not reviews.
 

aruna

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We live in a world where, deep down, people feel inferior. The way many choose to feel better about themselves is to bring others down. Their joy comes from other people's pain and failures. They lie in wait for celebrities to make mistakes. They revel in dirt. If it's not there, they'll make it up or twist something innocent into something vicious and horrible. I'd better stop there or I could go on and on.

However, in the case of Ms Alison, there was not one review there that could be regarded as nasty. The worst comment came from someone who said they threw the book into the English Channel. Considering that many people on AW declare that they threw this or that book against the wall, that's hardly the stuff of spite.

It's true that some of the one star reviews came from people who only posted one review, and never reviewed again. (I checked.) That IS suspicious. However, many of the five star reviews also came from people with one review - also suspicious.

Maybe if amazon posted each reviewer's review total next to their name (whether anonymous or not) that would be a bit of a guide in identifying spam reviews, both pro and con.

The real question for me is this: Do publishers pay any attention to reviews on Amazon? They shouldn't. People do pay others to write both good and bad reviews. CNet is full of them. Companies will give their own products rave reviews while disguising themselves as a random, or enthusiastic, customer.

It's hard not to read reviews about our own work but it's in our best interest to avoid them. Let sales be your thermostat, not reviews.

It's not publishers who might pay attention, it's prospective readers; that's what's so upsetting to authors. And it is upsetting. But you need to develop a thick skin, and maybe there's some truth in those negative reviews. I know I had a hard time reading them when my books first came out, but after a few years, looking back, I can admit that sometimes they were right. Our first books are seldom perfect; I jusy read parts of my first one, written ten years ago, and cringed. If I were to review it myself, now, I would definitely have some negative things to say! I think the trick is to stand back and see it all from a place of neutrality and objectivity. I couldn't do it then; I can now.
 
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gothicangel

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I remember getting a certain rejection, I threw an absolute tantrum.
Looking back now the criticisms were fair. It makes me cringe because I wrote a cringeworthy rant that was published in a major UK magazine. :Headbang:

I'll be sending out my WIP in 2011. I know not to behave like that again, publishing is a small world. I can only hope that any agent that saw that rant has forgotten.

I would also like to think when my book is published, and receive 1 star reviews I will be a good enough writer to take on my readers criticisms.
 

Jack Parker

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However, in the case of Ms Alison, there was not one review there that could be regarded as nasty. The worst comment came from someone who said they threw the book into the English Channel. Considering that many people on AW declare that they threw this or that book against the wall, that's hardly the stuff of spite.
Thanks Aruna. I was up until 4:15am and should NOT have been posting as late as I did. I got so caught up in what I said that I neglected to make my main point, which is exactly what you said. We DO live in a world where people get nasty and hurtful online and it IS rampant. However, in the case of Ms. Alison, the reviews were fair because the readers made clear what it was they didn't like about the book.

I've followed your comments in this conversation and find them very astute, such as your observations in the quote below. Do you write mysteries? Somehow I think you would be very good at them!

It's true that some of the one star reviews came from people who only posted one review, and never reviewed again. (I checked.) That IS suspicious. However, many of the five star reviews also came from people with one review - also suspicious.

Maybe if amazon posted each reviewer's review total next to their name (whether anonymous or not) that would be a bit of a guide in identifying spam reviews, both pro and con.
That would help but it's an imperfect system that people will always find a way to get around. They'll just go to other books and post quickie little one or two line reviews, making sure they're mixed, so the reviews they're faking (whether good or bad) will appear genuine.

It's not publishers who might pay attention, it's prospective readers; that's what's so upsetting to authors. And it is upsetting. But you need to develop a thick skin, and maybe there's some truth in those negative reviews. I know I had a hard time reading them when my books first came out, but after a few years, looking back, I can admit that sometimes they were right. Our first books are seldom perfect; I jusy read parts of my first one, written ten years ago, and cringed. If I were to review it myself, now, I would definitely have some negative things to say! I think the trick is to stand back and see it all from a place of neutrality and objectivity. I couldn't do it then; I can now.
Spoken from experience, truth and maturity. The way I see it, you can't believe all the bad reviews but there will be some truth in them. But you also can't believe all the good reviews either because there will be flattery and people trying to show off THEIR writing and reviewing skills.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Reviews and critics are for newspapers and magazines. Forget about them. The real mettle of your work is in the sales and whether or not a publisher agrees to publish you again.
 

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My reaction exactly.

I don't believe a legit publisher would waste their time doing this. Now scum like the guy quote above is another matter.

An author who would pay for such a service reeks of desperation.

For $5000? NO FREAKING WAY.

It's stupidly expensive for the benefit you get out of it. In UK terms that's practically an entire marketing budget for a decent frontlist title; we have marketing people - in fact we have work experience people - who could go around placing fake reviews on websites if we thought it was a good idea.

I have not worked anywhere where the marketing department felt itself above the odd bit of Amazon reviewing, but it's never really habitual. I suppose the best way to describe it is it's tactical, not strategic. People would, I think, be very quick to spot the strategic deployment of rampant sock-puppetry; anyone who spends much time on a forum, for example, becomes quite sensitive about it. I don't think publishers go in for it as a policy.

However, now and again you get a situation where something's had only a single 2-star review, and the single reviewer is, demonstrably, a singular ass.

This is very probably a book that you care about and have lived with for a couple of years and love dearly, but it looks like a dog in searches because someone slated it without reading it; or on the basis that some Amazon marketplace seller was slow to deliver it; or because they clicked the wrong button ("This is the greatest novel of all time! Two stars!"). This feels deeply unfair, and besides, you love the book dearly. So perhaps a couple of basically truthful, but undeniably tactical, reviews show up soon afterwards.

I don't think many of my colleagues feel good about it; it feels like cheating. However sometimes you feel like you've been cheated somewhat yourself, and it's permissible to redress the balance a little, so long as you don't take too many liberties. I really don't think it goes on that much; if I look at all the books we've published over the last year or so on Amazon, and there are a lot, the vast majority of them haven't been reviewed at all.

As for outsourcing it: I think if you offered to do this for any major house for $5000, you'd be politely escorted from the building. If you offered to do this for a desperate or unscrupulous small press, you'd be out of luck, because it's too expensive. Even a bottom-feeder like PA would either be doing it for themselves or laughing at your bravado. So I think the only real clientele for this is people who are a) self-publishing and b) deluded enough that they think they are funding a marketing campaign, rather than a guy sitting in his shorts at home writing spam at $1000 an hour.
 

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Oh, for corn's sake!

Amazon's reader reviews are an excellent resource for writers and for other readers. I rely on them to help guide my purchases (usually by only buying books that have an average of three stars...split between lots of fives and lots of ones. The books that piss a few people off and/or disturb them are invariably my favorites). I am an active participant in reviewing, too.

Too bad, so sad for Alison. Boo hoo. you know why you got more reviews after you were short-listed for the Orange? Because people finally noticed your book. Too bad they also noticed it fell short of their expectations.

Personally, I am looking forward to one-star reviews on Amazon when my books are finally published. They're often hilarious and fun to read, and I've got a way thick skin. Writers need to realize they're not going to make all readers happy. No writer appeals equally to all book nuts. Taste varies. Some people will hate what you do. Life is short -- enjoy the fact that people noticed your work enough to hate it.
 

Libbie

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I do agree that Amazon needs to put in place a system where only people who have bought the book are allowed to review it.

Heck no. What about people who borrowed the book from the library, or bought it from another retailer? Their opinions on the work are just as valid and useful as those who bought it from Amazon.
 

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What about people who borrowed the book from the library, or bought it from another retailer? Their opinions on the work are just as valid and useful as those who bought it from Amazon.

Not arguing as such, but I don't see why they should have an automatic right to express their opinion on Amazon. They can use Goodreads, or LibraryThing, or a review blog, perhaps; anywhere that isn't linked to the specific place where that book is being sold. I'm just missing where it's automatically wrong for Amazon to insist that only their own customers get to comment.
 

gothicangel

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Sorry Torgo, but I've worked as a editor and I've never came across a publisher that condones what Ms Alison is accusing them of.

I think Libbie said it all really.
 

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I'm just missing where it's automatically wrong for Amazon to insist that only their own customers get to comment.

It's not about right and wrong, it's a business decision; it's about what Amazon wants to be and what its ratings system wants to be.

Amazon is IMDB for books at this point. Unless I'm really bothered about accuracy, it's where I go for bibliographic data, or cover images, or synopses, or even just a general sense of the reception the book's received. (There's always the British Library or the LOC if you need your data ironclad.) I think I probably prefer that people who aren't customers can leave reviews; and I suspect that vastly more reviews are left as a result of Amazon prompting purchasers than pure drive-bys, so perhaps damage is limited that way. I know that I've done a lot of rating of books on the site as a method of improving my recommendations, so that's another reason for people to leave feedback on things they bought elsewhere. (Are those ratings visible if you don't leave an actual review? I don't think so.)

The alternative - restricting reviews to paying customers - has a nice clean simplicity to it, but I think it probably means fewer reviews and less discussion on the site. I think Amazon would rather be a little wilder and woollier than that, though, they like being a bit of a social network, and they do moderate. (They're not averse to deleting reviews if they are obviously unfair - I'm just not sure how all-seeing their eyes are.)

I think, as well, that it would not provide a significant enough financial barrier to anyone who wanted to game the system - they'd have to feel a positive or negative review would be influential enough to justify buying a copy.
 

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Sorry Torgo, but I've worked as a editor and I've never came across a publisher that condones what Ms Alison is accusing them of.

I think Libbie said it all really.

I agree, I've never heard of a publisher leaving negative reviews to sabotage another house's book - that wasn't what I was talking about. (Rival authors are another matter.) I was (most recently) responding to the story about the 'marketing firm' who were selling 5* reviews for $5000 and claiming to have lots of takers. I've known plenty of publishers who might give their own books a nice review - usually with the best of intentions - but that strikes me as being targeted strictly at the clueless.
 

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And now you understand why I only read three-star reviews, if I read Amazon reviews at all.
You are missing some of the best free entertainment on the Internet.

Popcorn not included.
Speaking of spoof reviews, this is a classic from back in 2000, with over 9000 "helpful" votes! Ping! I love that Duck
I made a comment on that review. I could not help myself.

Perhaps what is most regrettable is that I now see where you mention the 2000 date of that review, which predates the (self) publication of the book I mentioned in my comment. That review could well have influenced the reviews of the book I mentioned.
 

Libbie

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Not arguing as such, but I don't see why they should have an automatic right to express their opinion on Amazon. They can use Goodreads, or LibraryThing, or a review blog, perhaps; anywhere that isn't linked to the specific place where that book is being sold. I'm just missing where it's automatically wrong for Amazon to insist that only their own customers get to comment.

Well, most other review sites such as Goodreads aren't very well known. Most people using the internet know what Amazon is and use it. Most people don't know what Goodreads is.
 
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