Dutch "Scum Villages"

Broadswordbabe

I'd rather be a cat.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
594
Reaction score
144
Location
Lost
Website
www.gaiesebold.com
m with Waylander on this one - it seems a policy massively open to abuse. On the other hand, having lived with bad neighbours and my sister having lived with really appalling, abusive, scary neighbours...there needs to be some way of dealing with them. Current policies are obviously woefully inadequate. Perhaps what's needed are changes in the law so that i.e. music played over x decibels x hours a week is illegal, etc.(eta; I know music seems a minor thing - and can be compared to other much more threatening and destructive behaviours - I'm just using that as an example). It would need to be very carefully structured and sufficiently flexible, but surely it's not beyond the wit of humanity to come up with something that works.
 
Last edited:

Rufus Coppertop

Banned
Flounced
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
3,935
Reaction score
948
Location
.
Then they came for the dude making knee-jerk comparisons to the worst time in human history.
But I didn't speak...

...Wait a second, there's someone at the door.

:chair

:roll::ROFL::D

i get tired of the "but what if, what if . . . " scenarios. People who spend their lives deliberately making life miserable for other people don't deserve to live in society. Screw them.

This.

There are limits to how much you can resolve conflicts with people who are borderline criminal and possibly sociopathic.

And this.
 
Last edited:

Plot Device

A woman said to write like a man.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
1,867
Location
Next to the dirigible docking station
Website
sandwichboardroom.blogspot.com
I am at a loss for words on how to delicately describe my own feelings on all this. I feel like there is nothing I can write that won't fall squarely into the taboo realm of political incorrectness.

Without delving into the truly difficult and treacherous waters of this conversation, let me stay in the shallow end of the pool and simply say that this situation involves conflicts that can arise from two different elements of any community: 1) people who are merely culturally different from "the norm", and 2) people who are just plain anti-social and possibly imbalanced to the point of criminality.

Let me start with the first element:

There was a recent thread here in P&CE (less than 6 months ago) about a foriegn film called "Woman in the Street" about young women who live in (I think) Paris (or maybe Amsterdam??) Antwerp, Belgium, and who are constantly harassed by foreign men who hang at street corners and/or sit in the outdoor chairs at various cafes. As these women walk by going about their business, they are always --without fail--called out to by those men, some actively chasing the women for a block or more and verbally soliciting sex from them, and some merely standing back/sitting back and cat-calling sexual innuendo at them during their stroll past the men. The difficult thing here is that what the men are doing is not illegal. And when the men are asked "Why are you doing this?" They have no real answer other than that it amuses them to do so. When the men are told directly that they are frightening the women, the men scoff and deny such a claim as a lie, asserting they have done nothing wrong and caused zero harm to anyone.

The situation in that film is one of two different cultures. The men in the streets are primarilly Middle-Eastern or African, and in their culture they would NEVER cat-call or chase after a woman if she were being escorterd by a man (because in their culture, the man would be her protector). But, in their culture's view of pedestrian protocols, any woman walking alone is most likely a prostitute which means she WANTS to be spoken to that way. But even if she's NOT a prostitute, there is in their culture a social disapproval of a "non-prostitute" woman walking alone in that she is seen as bringing shame on her family for walking unescorted ad therefore looking like she might be a prostittute via her alone-ness. And therefore she DESERVES to be cat-called to. And so the males in her family (her father or brother or husband, or even a male cousin or uncle) had better get on the stick and either start walking with her everywhere, or else keep her at home "where she belongs."

This is a situation where the social conventions and norms of a foreign culture are --via unchecked immigration-- finding a happy and uncontested home in a new culture, and allowed to flourish and perpetuate at the expense of the pre-existing culture. (Here's where I am standing in politically incorrect territory.) This is when I say "bullshit." Those women should NOT be subjected to that shit. But they are. And no one is able to stop it.


As for the second element in my over-simplified lecture ....Those are the freaks, the cat-ladies, the stereo-blasters, the once-a-month bathers, the loud-sex screamers, the back-yard hog-roasters, the incessant drinkers -- and so many other behaviors which are annoying as shit but likewise NOT illegal. Trying to combat the second group is problematic when trying NOT to unintentionally lump them together with the first group.


The first group has a legitimate culture with a (basically) functioning society. (Many would say those various Middle-Eastern and African societies are actually dysfunctional, but I ain't goin' there!) So attcking their behavior is philosophically the same as attacking their culture. The second group is anti-social, a-functioning, and not legitimate at all. But separating outGroup One from Group Two is an undertaking fraught with landmines too complex for me to imagine we can just start writing laws willy nilly and get it all sewn up nice and neat and take care of with no problems to either the principles of plurality or the sacredness of human rights.
 
Last edited:

Rufus Coppertop

Banned
Flounced
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
3,935
Reaction score
948
Location
.
If the behaviour you mention is not acceptable by the standards of Belgian culture, why should it be tolerated in Belgium?

Respect for other cultures should be a two way street. Respect for other cultures should not mean lowering the standards of our own to appease sexist, misogynistic and arrogant louts.

I'm not sure I agree that attacking their behaviour is philosophically the same as attacking their culture, but here's a question.

If no one attacks their behaviour and excuses it by saying, oh it's just their culture, is that tantamount to assuming that Middle Easterners and Africans aren't capable of better, more civilized behaviour?

I'm sure we both know that that's not the case.
 
Last edited:

Don

All Living is Local
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
24,567
Reaction score
4,007
Location
Agorism FTW!
Those are the freaks, the cat-ladies, the stereo-blasters, the once-a-month bathers, the loud-sex screamers, the back-yard hog-roasters, the incessant drinkers -- and so many other behaviors which are annoying as shit but likewise NOT illegal.
...
The second group is anti-social, a-functioning, and not legitimate at all. But separating out Group One from Group Two is an undertaking fraught with landmines too complex for me to imagine we can just start writing laws willy nilly and get it all sewn up nice and neat and take care of with no problems to either the principles of plurality or the sacredness of human rights.
I happen to enjoy pig roasts, have no issues with freaks, cat-ladies, lackadaisical bathers or incessant drinkers as long as they stick to their own property, and expect the police to handle violations of noise and nuisance ordinances without throwing people out of their homes, although it may require an occasional night in the drunk tank.

I'm detecting whiffs of NIMBY when it comes to people who don't fit the social norms of the neighborhood, and support for the concept of Home Owner's Associations on steroids. "You painted your house pink? We'll ride you outta town on a rail!"

If there are problematic behaviors, address those specific behaviors. While that seems to be a current failure of the system, I don't see how being able to throw people out of their homes will cure those behaviors -- it will simply transplant them and make them someone else's problems. Address the problems, don't export them.
 

Plot Device

A woman said to write like a man.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
1,867
Location
Next to the dirigible docking station
Website
sandwichboardroom.blogspot.com
Those are the freaks, the cat-ladies, the stereo-blasters, the once-a-month bathers, the loud-sex screamers, the back-yard hog-roasters, the incessant drinkers -- and so many other behaviors which are annoying as shit but likewise NOT illegal.
...
I happen to enjoy pig roasts, have no issues with freaks, cat-ladies, lackadaisical bathers or incessant drinkers

But I take it you're not terribly fond of loud-sex screamers. ;)

If there are problematic behaviors, address those specific behaviors. While that seems to be a current failure of the system, I don't see how being able to throw people out of their homes will cure those behaviors -- it will simply transplant them and make them someone else's problems. Address the problems, don't export them.

Maybe Rugcat can chime in with his opinion of who should do all this "addressing" of problematic behaviors.
 

Friendly Frog

Snarkenfaugister
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Messages
4,173
Reaction score
5,118
Location
Belgium
There was a recent thread here in P&CE (less than 6 months ago) about a foriegn film called "Woman in the Street" about young women who live in (I think) Paris (or maybe Amsterdam??) Antwerp, Belgium, and who are constantly harassed by foreign men who hang at street corners and/or sit in the outdoor chairs at various cafes.
It was Brussels, Belgium, if I recall correctly. A very, very sad film.
 

Teinz

Back at it again.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Messages
2,440
Reaction score
186
Location
My favourite chair by the window.

I remember, I started it.

This is a situation where the social conventions and norms of a foreign culture are --via unchecked immigration-- finding a happy and uncontested home in a new culture, and allowed to flourish and perpetuate at the expense of the pre-existing culture. (Here's where I am standing in politically incorrect territory.) This is when I say "bullshit." Those women should NOT be subjected to that shit. But they are. And no one is able to stop it.

Brussels is already fining men who harass women(not 100%sure about that), Amsterdam is talking about putting similar measures into effect.

As for the second element in my over-simplified lecture ....Those are the freaks, the cat-ladies, the stereo-blasters, the once-a-month bathers, the loud-sex screamers, the back-yard hog-roasters, the incessant drinkers -- and so many other behaviors which are annoying as shit but likewise NOT illegal. Trying to combat the second group is problematic when trying NOT to unintentionally lump them together with the first group.

I don't understand what you mean by this. For me, the first case is about differences in culture to which we as a society should say; "The way some men with a Muslim background are treating women, is unacceptable by our standard and should be fought, first with adequate informing, and if that doesn't work, with hefty fines." They might not understand, but if that is the case I say: "Though luck, you'd better adapt quickly."

The second case isn't really about culture. People who are a nuisance to their neighbours know they are violating certain "sacred" Dutch principles. Most of them grew up in Dutch culture and they know it's important to heed thy neighbour's peace of mind. They understand that when you live like this(http://www.rnw.nl/data/files/imagecache/must_carry/images/lead/huis-379614974_5797679566_o.jpg) you can't do whatever you want, whenever you want it. They understand all this very well, but they just don't care.

There is a huge difference between the two groups and I fail to see how measures designed to combat the problems they cause, could ever be misused or misinterpreted.
 

EMaree

a demon for tea
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,655
Reaction score
840
Location
Scotland
Website
www.emmamaree.com
Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that men do this because of their different ethnic cultures. When I get cat-called in the street or by passing cars, it's by white males (usually Scots, but that's simply by virtue of majority). I've never faced this abuse from the Indian and African descendants living in my little village.

I can't deny that there's a culture that says woman walking on their own make easy targets, but I don't think that culture has anything to do with immigration or the man's skin colour.
 

Ambrosia

Grand Duchess
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
26,893
Reaction score
7,269
Location
In the Castle, of course.
Why make the whole family move? Perhaps there is one trouble maker in a house of four people, yet all of them have to move? I say send the trouble maker away. The other three family members will have a good 6 month break from the insanity.
 

patskywriter

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
326
Reaction score
54
Location
Durham, NC, USA
Website
www.durhamskywriter.com
… about young women … who are constantly harassed by foreign men who hang at street corners and/or sit in the outdoor chairs at various cafes.

The reverse happens as well. There used to be a popular jazz club in an upscale area called the "Gold Coast" in Chicago. When a man would often walk several blocks to pick up the car (super congested area), assuming that his (black) lady friend would be safe standing in front of the club, he'd return to a pretty shaken-up woman. White men became known for aggressively hassling "unescorted" black women for sex. The problem was finally solved when the club moved to a more racially balanced area downtown. It certainly seemed that the white guys were showing us that that's "how they were," but that type of behavior is never acceptable. Sometimes people are just jerks and should be dealt with appropriately.

Way back when I was a kid, we'd occasionally get new neighbors whose habits would endanger or irritate the homeowners around them. My dad and a couple of other neighbors would pay them a visit, welcome them, and have a friendly discussion. In the case where neighbors were attracting rats by throwing garbage out of the window, Dad (et al) took the family some trash bags and discussed the importance of using the trash bins by the alley. Often, our new neighbors were from areas with different living standards and just had to be brought up to speed. It always worked; the new neighbors were appreciative and everybody was happy.

Now, when it comes to sociopathic or downright bad neighbors—I don't know what to say. Living around truly evil people is a scary thought. Nooo, thank you.