Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

I'm not sure that's a problem you can fix yourself, though. "Have I explained this clearly enough for someone who doesn't know what's going on?" can only really be answered by someone who doesn't know what's going on.

I would say that's a reasonable thing to ask a beta, but I'd say something like "I'm aware that sometimes I don't include enough detail for readers to pick up what's happening - if this happens, don't struggle on, let me know." That way they know if they have a "huh?" moment that it probably wasn't intentional.

Linda Adams said:

I thought it was awfully presumptious to push this off on a beta--especially since I knew it was a problem and was trying to fix it. Not only that, it sounded an awful lot like, "I'm bad with grammar. Correct all my mistakes."

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Like Skylart said. I know I have a problem with too few details/description (esp in fantasy) and I also tend to repeat things too much sometimes. I try to fix these myself, obviously, but it's hard to know when I've got it right.

Notes to betas often read 'Please tell me if you can't picture something in your head or point out areas that you think need fleshing out' and 'Please point out where you stop and think 'Too much already!''

If you're upfront about what you need from the beta, I don't see there's a problem, because they can always say no.

BardSkye said:

I'm having a seafood platter with clam strips even as we speak.

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And you are a fast eater. You read the whole thing and commented on it in one night. What a great beta!

IdiotsRUs said:

If you're upfront about what you need from the beta, I don't see there's a problem, because they can always say no.

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This is it in a nutshell, regardless of what the problem or what the author is looking for help with. Don't sugarcoat problems just to get a beta, because you won't have one long once they start reading. Be honest and get the right one for you.

skylark said:

I'm not sure that's a problem you can fix yourself, though. "Have I explained this clearly enough for someone who doesn't know what's going on?" can only really be answered by someone who doesn't know what's going on.

I would say that's a reasonable thing to ask a beta, but I'd say something like "I'm aware that sometimes I don't include enough detail for readers to pick up what's happening - if this happens, don't struggle on, let me know." That way they know if they have a "huh?" moment that it probably wasn't intentional.

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It's hard for me to explain and have people understand. They don't get how bad it actually is. I routinely have to correct this is in every single scene and have had to add more than 500 words to correct it. So it's not something where you might be reading along and see it every 50 pages or so -- it's on every 3-5 pages. And it's hard to spot because it's something that's not there. That's why I have the problem with asking a beta to do that much work.

ETA: It was really bad before I knew it was a problem, and may be one of the reasons betas gave up on the story.

Prawn said:

And you are a fast eater. You read the whole thing and commented on it in one night. What a great beta!

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It was very tasty. And I even had time to watch two hockey games between courses

BardSkye said:

It was very tasty.

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I am so glad you liked it!

Would anyone else like a taste?

I'd love another set of eyes on it.

People not thanking you for your efforts? Outrageous and rude to say the least!

Judging from the expected etiquette and the posts here, I would have to say I have been the luckiest guy on the planet with regards to finding a beta reader and critique partner. When my wife suggested I find a beta reader, I had no idea what she meant, so I started trolling the internet and found AW. Not being a very social animal, forums and social networks were all foreign to me and I had no idea of the rules for this site, either stated or implied. As a result, my first post was to request a beta reader.

I only had to wait a day before a wonderful gentleman offered his help on a provisional basis, despite his reservations about my expressed level of patience. We were to exchange the first chapter of our works just to see if we could put up with each other's writing and go from there. After doing so, he was impressed enough to want to continue. Little did I know how fortunate I was.

It turns out the man was a retired professor of English with plenty of writing and editing experience. Not only has he provided me with a myriad of useful suggestions, he has been a fountain of knowledge regarding many things, from lesser known rules of grammar and word usage to specific knowledge of certain subjects dealt with in my manuscript. On top of that, he proofed and corrected the basic spelling and punctuation errors that we all know are so difficult to catch when proofing your own material. He has been generous in pointing out the things he liked and in giving explanations for the things he felt I needed to consider. And he has been prompt in returning material critiqued. An added bonus is that he has increased my awareness of things I need to be cognizant of, making me a much better editor of my own material.

On the other side, I have been fortunate as well for he never fails to thank me for the catches and suggestions, incorporating many of them in his work. Currently, he is on his third read-though of my manuscript.

The funny thing is, after starting the relationship out so tentatively, I am now his only remaining beta, the other four or five having dropped out on him. I have made a promise to stick with him for however long he needs me as I certainly owe the man a huge debt of gratitude. And besides, I have to find out what happens in his novel. His voice is unique, his characters are interesting both physically and personality-wise, and he knows prose.

I would mention his name and sing his praises openly, but he probably would not appreciate all the requests he would get to read manuscripts. He has my utmost appreciation for all the help he has given me. I wish everyone on here could be so lucky as to have him as their beta/critique partner.

jdm said:

People not thanking you for your efforts? Outrageous and rude to say the least!

Judging from the expected etiquette and the posts here, I would have to say I have been the luckiest guy on the planet with regards to finding a beta reader and critique partner. When my wife suggested I find a beta reader, I had no idea what she meant, so I started trolling the internet and found AW. Not being a very social animal, forums and social networks were all foreign to me and I had no idea of the rules for this site, either stated or implied. As a result, my first post was to request a beta reader.

I only had to wait a day before a wonderful gentleman offered his help on a provisional basis, despite his reservations about my expressed level of patience. We were to exchange the first chapter of our works just to see if we could put up with each others writing and go from there. After doing so, he was impressed enough to want to continue. Little did I know how fortunate I was.

It turns out the man was a retired professor of English with plenty of writing and editing experience. Not only has he provided me with a myriad of useful suggestions, he has been a fountain of knowledge regarding many things, from lesser know rules of grammar and word usage to specific knowledge of certain subjects dealt with in my manuscript. On top of that, he proofed and corrected the basic spelling and punctuation errors that we all know is so difficult to catch when proofing your own material. He has been generous in pointing out the things he liked and in giving explanations for the things he felt I needed to consider. And he has been prompt in returning material critiqued. An added bonus is that he has increased my awareness of things I need to be cognizant of, making me a much better editor of my own material.

On the other side, I have been fortunate as well for he never fails to thank me for the catches and suggestions, incorporating many of them in his work. Currently, he is on his third read-though of my manuscript.

The funny thing is, after starting the relationship out so tentatively, I am now his only remaining beta, the other four or five having dropped out on him. I have made a promise to stick with him for however long he needs me as I certainly owe the man a huge debt of gratitude. And besides, I have to find out what happens in his novel. His voice is unique, his characters are interesting both physically and personality-wise, and he knows prose.

I would mention his name and sing his praises openly, but he probably would not appreciate all the requests he would get to read manuscripts. He has my utmost appreciation for all the help he has given me. I wish everyone on here could be so lucky as to have him as their beta/critique partner.

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What a lovely post. It sounds to me like you're both a good match.
I've been very lucky to find some great beta readers on AW and I wouldn't have got as far as I have without them.

Excellent post Maryn.
I am truly a newbie to this world. I've never been published. I've never submitted anything. (Well, that's not true. I submitted a short story years ago to a writers magazine and got a fairly pleasant rejection letter back but that's been it so far.)

To me, if I plan on being a writer, I have to do the work to become one. Especially if I want to become a good writer or at least a decent one. That's why I'm so glad I found AW. As much as I love goofing off in the social forums, I need to read posts like this because they remind me of what a looong way I still have to go.

For example, my grammar is still a mess. I would never send a WIP to someone who agreed to read it for me without trying to correct and polish it as much as I could first. To me, that's just common sense and I'm truly surprised at some of the hostile responses some of you beta readers have received from folks you read for.

It's not just rude, it's horribly immature. I personally want and need advice that's honest and brutal because it's the only way I'll learn. Maybe it's a generational thing. I notice folks younger then me can't seem to handle any kind of critique on their writing. They seem overly sensitive.

Unimportant said:

A lot of people have commented something along those lines.

When I read Maryn's original post, I found myself nodding agreement. When I read the "but if it's perfect it doesn't need a beta" post, I think I figured out what the disconnect was.

I don't expect a manuscript I beta read to be perfect, or even good. What I do expect is that it will be as good as that author can make it at that time. It's really frustrating to spend hours or days critiquing a manuscript and have the author come back and say "Yes, I knew all that, I was planning to change it in the next round of revisions" or "Yeah, I knew those chapters didn't work so I've deleted them and the entire subplot."

So: No. Revise it, edit it, polish it, and make it as good as you can. Then send it to me. I'll try to spot problems you've missed. That's my job as a beta. Not to spot problems you already know about.

I can't speak for Maryn, but that's what I mean when I say that I expect a completed, revised, edited, polished version. Not a perfect story. But as perfect as the author can make it.

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This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Good post.

Maryn,

I know I'm a month late in responding, but that can't be helped since I'm a newbie.
But, from what I could take from your explanation you felt compelled to post, you've read several, if not numerous novels, cover to cover, out of the generosity of your huge heart. And in return, you received nothing (or in one case a rude comment).

To me, that sounds like a lack of communication between you and the author(s). If that is true, then you are just as much to blame for the author not reciprocating your generosity or not sending you reams of praiseworthy words worth your effort.

If indeed you did communicate and still did not receive anything in return, then why did you keep reading the author(s) novel(s) and writing/sending "...five or ten thousand words of commentary"? Again, this seems partially your fault.

Now, so I'm not a total meanie...

I know that you probably wrote that in frustration and did not mean it in the way it looks... "I'm better than you newbies because I've posted X amount of times and until I approve of your worthiness, do not bother me."

I do appreciate the insight you have given, especially and more specifically, the second half of your post. If that part was the only section posted, I would have found your post the most helpful post a newbie could read (Obviously, you have a lot of information and knowledge to offer). Instead, I am partially turned off by your chest beating and ranting of how unworthy we are as newbies, despite the fact that I agree with most of your points.

I guess this is an example of how it is stated as opposed to what is stated.

Maryn said:

Maryn, actually a very nice person

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Co-sign.

Don't think of it as a rant or chest-beating. Think of it as tough love.

Maryn said:

I'm not sure I understand where you get the chest-thumping superiority version of me. Stick around and you'll see the Maryn who's more often awash in self-doubt. But I do stand by my opinion that I, personally, will no longer beta read for people who are strangers to me. Instead of taking offense at that, or assuming I think you are not worthy, get acquainted with me, and with AW in general. There are many, many ways to do that, lots of them requiring no particular writing expertise or experience. I cordially invite you to the Office Party thread Ray's House of Love, where I stop at least once daily. We just chat, joke around, sometimes talk writing. You are more than welcome to join in. (Everyone is.) Plus, we meet in person every so often, and those who I've looked in the eye are even more likely to get a beta out of me.

Sorry you didn't care for my approach. There are plenty of agents who seem to share your opinion.

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Maryn,
I have read several of your posts, and no, I do not think you are some kind of elitist writer. And I don't think you believe you are better than us newbies. In fact, I have found some of your post insightful.

I do think you are somewhat jaded by your negative experiences and that came out in this particular post. Particularly to us new people. I know that your post was meant to inform and even help someone like me, but the frustration was palpable.

I do thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond. And I do look forward to reading/posting in AW and corresponding with you and others in the future. Unfortunately, I am not a big forum/internet social bug. So I usually only post when an AWer writes something that evokes a response.

'til then...

Jcomp said:

Co-sign.

Don't think of it as a rant or chest-beating. Think of it as tough love.

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I'll do that

had the brilliant idea today that I should start a Beta Black List for people who get their entire freakin' novel critted and then don't do any crits for anyone else and then bail from the group.

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Well, I don't know if that is a brilliant idea. I beta for experience and yes, I'll say it ... pleasure. I have gotten to read some great work. I learn tons. I could care less if anyone betas back or not. It's my gig, it may not be theirs.

What Maryn said.

Anybody having an issue with polishing needs to think a bit. No amount of perfect grammar and punctuation will make up for confusing statements, incomplete description, gaping plotholes, and inconsistent characters. Writers are human, they make assumptions and they have habits. That's what betas are for -- they see from a new perspective what the writer is too close to. And by gad we don't get paid enough to do that through the pain of enduring just-plain-bad writing.

I've seen enough poorly constructed Precious Words to drive me to satire, disguising my disgust in flash fiction. It would not make sense to expect thanks for some of the things I've had to say in the name of tough love. At least I can hope that they have learned something, and might come back in a few years with some real writing.

If some of the better reads forget me, well, I can forget them right back. They're easier to forget than the godawful Marysues and Great Idea Guys.

I will still beta anything that I think is worth it, when I have time and energy to do so. Because of visual impairment and sleep issues, I can't always spend a lot of hours sitting up reading--at least not critically. But I love to do it when I can. Some of the best ones I've had weren't even near my genre. 'Twould be nice to catch a new reader who had time to bang away at my own 120,000 words too, but at least I have faithful old Beta Prime and a few casuals. I also have some regular beta-ees who come back for more.

I love shrimp!

Great thread! I've had both good and bad beta experiences, some have become lasting friendships, some have left me with nothing...
My biggest peeve is when I arrange a swap, this is with the idea that you read mine, I'll read yours and everyone's happy.
Well, I read fast. Really fast. I'll finish off a novel, the other person get's what they wanted and is never heard from again.
However, I will still beta read. I really enjoy it, I think it helps me out with my own writing as it does the other person. I now am just more careful.

Alishas,

There's a simple solution (as far as I see it at least). Do your part of the beta, tell the other when you plan on being done and then agree on a time to swap. Otherwise, I can see how some lazy person might receive a critique and say, "hell, now that I got what I want, why should I bother."

bighockeyhair said:

Alishas,

There's a simple solution (as far as I see it at least). Do your part of the beta, tell the other when you plan on being done and then agree on a time to swap. Otherwise, I can see how some lazy person might receive a critique and say, "hell, now that I got what I want, why should I bother."

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I've had this happen three times.

I've had pretty good luck with beta readers, but after reading these posts I fear I've been trying to beta too early. I'm definitely in the polishing stage, but not sure about 'submission ready'. I've had a couple betas give overall feedback and another who is doing a line by line edit - a HUGE undertaking. I thank her every time we email. When she's ready to have her ms read, I will be first in line.

My only gripe is when someone says yes they will read a few chapters, and then, after the chapters are sent, they drop off the face of the earth. I usually wait a couple weeks before asking, but frequently get no answer. I'm not afraid to hear the book is not their thing, don't have time, your writing is terrible, etc...But to get nothing from someone who said sure I'll read and is posted on the beta boards as being available to read? I only ask people who say they are willing to beta read, and then send chapters only to those who say they are interested in my genre and premise.

I think leaving people hanging is just as rude as not saying thank you.

The solution perhaps is to better know your limitations as a beta. Just as putting your writing out there for a critique isn't for the faint of heart, being able to say what you think isn't either. Love it? Say so! Don't like it? Say so. And if you run across a writer who has a snit fit over that opinion - isn't there a block feature on here? Report their whiny butts to the mods!

As a writer, I'm going to work harder on the polishing part to make sure my work is as close to submission ready as I can make it.

Jolea

JoleaB said:

The solution perhaps is to better know your limitations as a beta. Just as putting your writing out there for a critique isn't for the faint of heart, being able to say what you think isn't either. Love it? Say so! Don't like it? Say so. And if you run across a writer who has a snit fit over that opinion - isn't there a block feature on here? Report their whiny butts to the mods!

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And this is why I offer to beta VERY sparingly and always with a warning. I pull no punches, even with friends. If something isn't working, it isn't working, and me being nicey-nice about it isn't going to help anyone's book be ready for an agent to rave over.

Of course, I expect that same brutal honesty from anyone who betas for me. I also use crit partners before a beta ever sees; I know some don't use that step, but I have at least two people who will do knock-down, drag-out over a sentence for days before I turn to a beta. And I LOVE them. They are worth their weight in gold, even if occasionally even they apologize when something isn't working the fourth or fifth time through.

I do think a lot of people get way too attached to their words. You have to be able to take an entire chapter (or four), stick those words in a folder, and start with a blank page again if it's not working because you WANT it to work so badly. If you aren't at that stage? You aren't ready to query a book anyway.

I have Beta read once, and was completely turned off when I didn't even get a "thank you" email. Before this post, I just assumed my hard work was lost somewhere in internet space.

Thanks for the post!