The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Has anyone seen Uncle Jim today? Sheri2? I don't like this a bit! Ed, please come back we don't care if your a man of your word! We don't want you to keep your word! This sucks! Pa sucks! It's a pretty sucky day! Zaz, drink a beer for me and I'll eat a brownie for you! Who cares about all this crap? I just want my book back and to see Pa go down and I want to know how to do it. I want advice, not conversations about who's right or wrong!

Two things:

One, the Revenge of the Stipid is a tongue-in-cheek poke at PA. If there really is such a project in PA's minds, it's likely to stay there for lack of ability. I thought it would be interesting to point out that after their claims that science fiction and fantasy writers allegedly have it so easy that they should be able to shave off a few IQ points from their pointy little heads and produce a publishable work.

Two, there are a number of writers in the PA fold who have labeled honest reviewers as bashers because the reviewers wrote blunt, honestly painful, reviews of their PA books. PA and some of its writers have similarly labeled others as bashers for speaking the truth about PA contracts and other events within the PA environment. While I sympathize with the PA writers, that doesn't excuse them from the same standards that we and other writers expect ourselves to adhere to when it comes to what's placed before the reading public. These are standards the buying, reading public has put into place with their purchases. If they didn't mind misspellings, poor grammar, and poor storytelling, then just about anything and everything could and probably would be published. However, their dollars say otherwise. Likewise, PA should adhere to the same standards as other publishers in what is placed on the public plate because that's what the public expects. So, call us bashers if that's what you want. It won't change how the public reacts. Either your work will become good enough or the public will shun your work. That's all there is to it. Calling others bashers for pointing out shortcomings doesn't change a thing.

Treat them with respect: yes, certainly. There are many possible places to draw the line. What's respectful and what isn't? The mistakes in English on the PA boards in general deserve comment because these people, after all, regard themselves as writers, but too few of them write like writers, and that says something about PA and how it misleads. The mistakes in English made by Infocenter in particular deserve comment. I'm just saying it's disrespectful to ridicule authors for misspellings.

Click to expand...

Understood, but that's a hard one, reph, because how would you define ridicule for all of us? How would you hold me to your definition? Am I wrong because I do not accept your definition of ridicule? Are you wrong because you do not accept mine? Are we ridiculing one another at this very moment? Why is my head spinning?

See the problem?

There are some very tender feelings here among ex-PA authors and I understand and appreciate that. It would be logical to assume that they might then have a lower tolerance threshold about what is said about PA authors in general. I appreciate that and try to be sensitive to that as well. No one is here, that I can see, to insult or ridicule anyone for no reason. What we can do, and what I will continue to do unless I am told otherwise by the powers that be, is to use the comments, activities and writings of those who choose to put them out in the public forum to prove my point; that PA is not what they claim they are.

Some feelings will probably get hurt in the process -- perhaps mine included at some point. I am sorry for that. But that does not make it any less important to continue to try to keep writers and authors from becoming future PA writers and authors.

Here's some advice for you Mem, Go take a nap! It will do you a world of good!
Now, that is goooood advice, Mem! Your pretty smart after all!

DaveKuzminski said:

...These are standards the buying, reading public has put into place with their purchases....

Click to expand...

Would the controversy over PA evaporate if PA did these things?

1. State up front that the company will print ('publish') essentially any manuscript that comes its way, regardless of quality of the manuscript or market for it;
2. Provide unambiguous informed consent procedures for its clients (authors) to assure that they do in fact understand every provision of the contract AND how PA contracts differ from normal publishing practices;
3. Explain in plain English that, with only extremely rare and limited exceptions, bookstores do not stock their books, that reviewers do not review them, that they are essentially invisible to the book-buying public, that they are overpriced by market standards, and that special ordering may be difficult and slow;
4. Explain in plain English that the company expects to make its money from sales to the author and to the author's friends and family;
5. Provide to prospective clients statistics on average, median, mode, and maximum sales of PA's books, including distribution among quantity categories (say, 0-49, 50-99, 100-499, 500-999, 1,000 and up);
6. Agree to cease its practice of insulting, harassing communications with its authors (the notorious "tone" letters, the "your message is incomprehensible" assertions, and so on).

Comments? (BTW, the above list kept growing ... I started with two items ...)

--Ken

ResearchGuy said:

Would the controversy over PA evaporate if PA did these things?

Click to expand...

Most of it, yes.

I suspect it drifts toward hypocrisy to say, "I only bring to light those PA authors who should be held up to the light (whether they want to be or not)" and then follow up with something along the lines of "If you have anything to say about my posts -- do it in private" or to complain/get mad/stomp off when someone calls us on our behavior. We are no more sacred than PA writers. If we consider them open to be called on their behavior -- then we, by default, accept that we are open to being called on our behavior. We may not accept the judgment of others (just as PA authors may not accept the "correction" of others).

If anyone goes out into public as a truthteller, then you bet your darf that person better be prepared to have folks shower him/her with their version of the truth. You don't get any "ouch, ouch, I don't like being picked on here" room if you feel it's okay make PUBLIC reproof of others.

Personally, I don't think the lingerie lady is a particularly more apt target of personal commentary than anyone here...we are all making a public presence of ourselves by posting on a public board. If we feel we have some kind of license to "dish it out" then we sure as shemp better be prepared to catch some flack. Otherwise we stand a good chance to deservedly be labeled as hypocrites.

Now, personally, the only reason I didn't chime into Ed's litany of silly wrong word use was because I'm drowning in real life stuff that needs doing here (though, for the record, my personal favorite wrong word use is to call anyone who doesn't approve of PA a "looser" -- that makes me laugh out loud every time I see it on the PA board. Exactly who am I supposed to be "looser" than?"). But if someone thinks I'm a poopie head because I think folks really really should learn the difference between loser and looser -- I'm cool with that. I'll even spare a moment to consider if I might really be a poopie head for laughing about the use of the word "looser." And if someone wants to correct my typing in public, I'm good to go there too. And if someone wants to call me a vindictive old bat -- heck, I've been called worse. I'm posting in public, I'll take my public knocks -- including public correction by my peers. Even rebuke from those I consider friends or comrades in arms against PA. I accept that we all are trying to do the best within our own personal code of ethics -- and I am open to hearing where someone else's code differs from mine. Hey, I might even change. Probably not, though, I'm old and I have a pretty big ego.

But one thing I WON'T do is to try to defend the times I've gotten a little out of hand in public by crying foul when someone makes a comment in public about me. Sure, maybe they could have whispered the correction in my PM ear, but I did my doodie in public, I guess I can handle being handed the wipe rag in public too. If I don't feel like I did anything wrong, I can just ignore the rag and "tsk tsk" to myself at the silly people rebuking dear ol' Saint granny.

gran

Ed leaving will only hurt us. He is a valued member of this forum and a good friend and I will miss him, I do hope he comes back. But that isn't the only thing that will hurt us. What kind of spin will the PA supporters put on this?

Supporter: Look, one of the biggest bashers has just left. They are falling apart. PA is winning.

People, if we start bickering over the little things we will be just like the PAMB. People are complaining about how many rep points he had? So what. Did he illegaly get them? Did he sell his soul to the devil? Did he whine and beg for them? NO!!! People like what he said and gave them to him. Where is the problem here?

I want Ed back. He was the reason I began posting here in the first place and no it wasn't because he sent me an email or anything asking me to come here, I just liked his sense of humor and thought I would stay. He gives out good advice and does so with a keen sense of wit, I liked that. I will miss it.

Ed, reconsider staying. If you want to be a man of your word then just don't post in this thread, there are many others as you well know.

Now, I have to tell you all about something I seen today while driving home. There were these two dogs fighting so I slowed down and looked and I saw peices of paper going flying. Curious, I stopped and walked slowly up to them. The two dogs stopped fighting, looked at me, and sat down. I looked between them and saw a book ripped to shreds. I bent down and picked it up, in my hands I held a copy of Allen Parker's "A nudist among us".

"Why did you do that for?" I asked the dogs, not expecting a reply. The dogs looked at each other and then the big one, a great dane-shitzu mix (hope the mom wasn't the Shitzu), looked at me and said....

"Darf," shocked I stepped back and a man was there.

"I'm a dog whisperer," he told me as he bent down to look at the dog.

"Darf,"

"What does that mean?" I asked.

"He said 'reading', darf means reading."

"Reading?" I asked, confused.

"Darf, darf, darf, darf."

"I'm sorry, this dog speaks chinese. Darf means bullsh i t," I looked down at my feet and saw that I was standing in a pile of bullsh i t. The dogs were rubbing the book in it, not tearing it up.

"Why this book? I know the author, he is a good guy." I said. The dogs looked at each other and then said....

"Barf carf sharf, marf, woof woof woof." The dog whisperer started laughing and got to his feet.

"He said that his owner told him that if he ever saw another naked man in his bedroom that he should bite the sh i t out of him."

I got in my car and came straight home.

P.S.- Ed, get back here man.

Ken, you're basically asking if the controversy would subside if PA turned into something like Lulu (although I don't think any publisher of any kind would do #5 on your list). No one has a problem with Lulu.

DaveKuzminski said:

Most of it, yes.

Click to expand...

Then I suppose the next question is, could PA survive if it adopted those reforms? It may be a moot question, as the management appears incapable of such reforms. But if pressure were applied by the authorities and the legal system, would it be possible to reform the business model to work under those guidelines? It seems to this observer that a desirable outcome would be to bring about real reform without destruction. (Complicating the process, though, is that real reform would require retroactive mitigations for current clients.)

--Ken

ResearchGuy said:

Would the controversy over PA evaporate if PA did these things?

Comments? (BTW, the above list kept growing ... I started with two items ...)

--Ken

Click to expand...

Well, Lulu is pretty similar to how PA would be if they made many of those changes. They haven't gone so far as to disclose average sales figures, but they also have a contract you can cancel at will. They definitely are not regarded as such a raw deal even if they are also not considered a real publishing credit.

One thing I would add to the list is that PA should cease putting out misinformation about how things normally work in the publishing world.

ResearchGuy said:

Would the controversy over PA evaporate if PA did these things?

Click to expand...

It would, since people would know going in what being published by PA really means. If they're willing to accept that, that's fine.

If PA put up a page like this (from one of the best-known vanity presses), it would go a long way toward putting an end to this thread.

But, of course, that's not likely. PA doesn't want its authors to know the truth. They wouldn't make enough to make a profit unless they change their business model and charge the authors up front.

PA depends on volume to survive. If the volume falls below a certain level, they're dead.

clintl said:

Ken, you're basically asking if the controversy would subside if PA turned into something like Lulu ...

Click to expand...

Hmmm. Would that be so bad? (But I suppose it is like looking for the Mafia to turn into the Chamber of Commerce.)

--Ken

ResearchGuy said:

Then I suppose the next question is, could PA survive if it adopted those reforms?

Click to expand...

I think it would be tough for them. They don't have anything to offer that companies with much better reputations can't do as well or better. Pretending to be a "traditional publisher" is really the only hook they have.

ResearchGuy said:

Hmmm. Would that be so bad? (But I suppose it is like looking for the Mafia to turn into the Chamber of Commerce.)

--Ken

Click to expand...

Quite true. A business model of "Accept virtually everything we're sent, but make it up by giving it little attention and charging extra" is not necessarily corrupt or sleazy. I could see it having some legitimate uses. The trouble is not the basic idea but the corruption. The way they are willing to spread misinformation, send abusive emails to their own clients, etc. are not the sort of thing that go along with honest work. Whether it's vanity publishing or energy trading, there are legit and crooked ways to go about many businesses.

ResearchGuy said:

Hmmm. Would that be so bad? (But I suppose it is like looking for the Mafia to turn into the Chamber of Commerce.)

--Ken

Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't. In fact, I have my own personal project that Lulu sounds like it would be perfect for, and I was very happy to find that Lulu exists. But it's not a commercial project (i.e. I don't actually want the books to be available for sale to anyone other than me).

MadScientistMatt said:

Well, Lulu is pretty similar to how PA would be if they made many of those changes. They haven't gone so far as to disclose average sales figures, but they also have a contract you can cancel at will. They definitely are not regarded as such a raw deal even if they are also not considered a real publishing credit.

One thing I would add to the list is that PA should cease putting out misinformation about how things normally work in the publishing world.

Click to expand...

The beauty of Lulu is that if you are already a published author, you can use it to showcase works, reprint works, whatever.

If you're a new author, you may have more trouble unless you are willing to go the route Uncle Jim went with ATLANTA NIGHTS where you go ahead and pay for the ISBN Plus package.

Still, while there are reasons to self publish, there are a lot of reasons not to.

With PA, they are not giving the authors a real choice in the matter. They're putting the authors into a leaky canoe with no paddle and shoving them into whitewater territory.

Sink or swim.

If they sink, PA does not care. There are plenty more people they can lure in to replace them.

If they're fortunate enough to be able to swim, PA points to them and says "see, we're the real deal..."

Laura J. Underwood

I don't get it. If one prefers to comment only on PA or PA work, then why is there a chunk of a PA published book on the nonfiction board, with only one comment? The author invited comments on the work.

I want Ed back.

YES!!!! Oh, good grief, I've been reading here all day and not able to post. I was about to have an anxiety attack or something. Not being able to get my AW fix...just wrong. Totally wrong. And very frustrating, especially given the things going on here today.

I have a number of things to say.

First, Ed, get your hamdog-eating self back here! It won't be the same without you. That post really didn’t sound like you – perhaps a POD person? After all, I saw all your green blobs were gone, you only had one black one, and then I wasn't able to post. I think there’s been something hinky going on. But you had better not be serious about leaving. I’m going to hope it was a delayed reaction to eating a hamdog and a Fried Twinkie, washed down with a Butterfinger Blizzard.

Second, this whole thing with the "don't hurt the poor PA authors' feelings" has gotten out of hand. Now, no one here wants to intentionally hurt a PA author's feelings. But folks, we need the humor that happens here. The Land of Poz, and the spline and stipid, and darfing...well, that's all HUMOR. Humor is subjective. If you don't find it funny, okay, don't laugh. But some of us do enjoy the humor that crops up on this thread. Sometimes if we don't laugh, we'll cry.

I'm starting to feel this is like how some teachers today are now using purple ink to correct students' papers because RED is just so...in-your-face. And red might make the students feel badly about their mistakes.

UGH! :Smack: I used to teach elementary school, and I would still be using RED if I were teaching now. There is nothing wrong with feeling badly about a mistake - that's nature's way of helping us to learn, and helping to make sure we don't repeat the mistake.

This is a tough business. You need a thick hide to survive it. I'm with Tri (I think it was Tri) when he said that hearing the truth, no matter how much it hurts, is one of the kindest things we can do for newbies or aspiring writers. Mollycoddling folks will not equip them to make it in this business. (I'm not saying we should be mean, either. But hey, toughen up a bit. Writing and life are not always a bed of rose petals. <G>)

Tri, you are a classy guy! I am delighted that you accepted my correction in the light in which it was offered. I wanted you (and anyone else reading) to know the correct "answer" but I didn't want to make you embarassed. (Oh, and as someone pointed out, you still get a prize - a year's supply of Rice-A-Roni. Thanks again for playing! <G>)

Hey, we ALL make mistakes.

But there's a difference between making occasional mistakes, or typos, and some of the stuff that "passes" for coherent writing on other boards or even in some <gasp> books. When I read a drive-by promo that's in crummy English, and the poster wants me to go and read their excerpt and buy their book - well, no. Sorry. Not going to do it. Because if they can't construct a well-written "ad" for their stuff, I'm willing to bet the actual product isn't much better.

NY Passionate Lady, you are also very classy! I hope you stick around. You manage to disagree without being disagreeable, and that's the way it should be done! Good for you!


Aaahhhh, I'm feeling so much better now that I've been able to post here. Phew. Thanks for letting me get all that off my chest. Or out of my fingers. Something like that.

Susan G.

A published or soon-to-be published author from the Publish America Author Board:

Message: If the review tells the opposite of the truth then it is their problem, not PA.

Click to expand...

The problem, bwr, is not that the NYT published the opposite of the truth, but rather that PA has told you and sold you on lies. I urge you to do some research on the reality of commercial publishing, vanity publishing and the market. It will serve to help you protect your next work from PA

What seed they sow is what they shall reep, if they want to sow bryers and thorns then that is what they shall reep, but there WILL come a day and there WILL come an hour that they WILL see that what they sowed was usless and non-profitable.

Click to expand...

I agree, and hopefully we will see the people who run PA reaping a lot of briars and thorns when the whole scam eventually either dries up or comes tumbling down around them.

Instead of us dwelling on the scoffers and hippacrits, Let us dwell and concentrate on what is good for our harvest.

Click to expand...

I realize I cannot convince you that most of the rest of the publishing world is right and that what PA has told you is wrong. In truth, my words are not for you, but for those who might decide to try to come after you. But nonetheless I urge you to continue to dwell on the positive and suggest you begin by educating yourself as to the realities of the publishing world so that you may then make a more educated decision as to whether PA serves your needs or their own.

Best of luck,

Jeff

ResearchGuy said:

Would the controversy over PA evaporate if PA did these things?


--Ken

Click to expand...

I'm fairly certain that's what we'd all like to see happen. It's very doubtful we will, but the dream is alive.

This has been going through my head for a couple of days, and I need to get it off my chest.

For the PA supporters/lurkers mostly,

If PA is using cutting-edge technology (bah! but that's how they act) to produce its great books, and will be sling-shotting the rest of the traditional publishing industry with its great technique, how come the business world isn't creating a buzz about what one business is doing to an entire industry?

My basis is:

As a business student at an AACSB-accredited school, I get pounded with info about all the latest things in business. When one business does something to change its industry, we hear about it through textbooks, lecture, whatever format. If one business is revolutionizing an entire industry and taking it by storm, especially with a technology model, why isn't everyone talking about?

BECAUSE PA ISN'T DOING ANYTHING TO AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY!!!!

On another note, Ed, though I often do not speak with you directly, I enjoy your posts. I wish that you wouldn't leave.

Mistakes happen people. Even here. Humor is needed. There is no need to get so upset about it. Yes, PA, PA authors, and even AW people make mistakes. I read them all the time. Most can be overlooked, many are funny, and a light-hearted approach should be used. If I do something wrong/stupid/whatever, I laugh when people point things out to me. In fact, my husband brings them up regularly and we laugh about them.

Don't overreact to everything. I used to be serious ALL of the time and you know what, I was stressed constantly. Learning to lighten up and use laughter to acknowledge mistakes is a good thing. Laughter is good medicine.

P.S. PNYL, I think most of us are in agreement when we say that your presence, so far, has been pleasant. I have enjoyed your posts and the manner in which you carry yourself. Continue to post with us, please. If your writing is anything like your posting, I would say your writing ability is vast.

Darnit . . .

Ed went and stole my thunder. I'm so bummed.

I've added a few links to the FAQ (thank you Kate Nepveu) and I plan to add a bit more to it Real Soon Now. Suggestions are quite welcome. (hint, hint)

http://sarashay.tripod.com/pafaq.html

Hi, guys. A board glitch kept me away.

--------

PA could prosper as a "Lulu With Training Wheels."

It could provide spelling and grammar checking for people who aren't too steady with their own word-processor's spelling and grammar checkers. It could provide covers for folks who don't have/aren't comfortable with Photoshop. It could do formatting for folks who aren't too comfortable with formatting. It could automatically add an ISBN.

For that value-added, they could add a surcharge to the cover price.

They could call themselves a self-publishing service and advertise as such, rather than the misleading and deceptive "traditional pubisher" label.

Want my bet? They'd get just as many manuscripts, be able to put out just as many books, and each book would sell just as well.