White lies in historical fiction?

Raula · Jan 4, 2012

Hey everyone,

I want to know people's opinion, as both readers and writers of HF, of those little white lies we tell to move the plot forward. For example, I open my novel with the marriage of my hero to his second wife and set this at his ancestral home and church, even though I know they did not marry there, because I want to introduce this key setting from the offset. I also move the (not formally recorded) date of birth of his second son a year forward so that the reader might feel more when he dies in the summer of 1631. In fact, I include various things that, whilst very much in keeping with the time period, aren't actually what happened. History seldom provides us with a fully-fledged epic story for us to simply copy down, and by now these rare stories have become well-picked carcasses. Most readers would accept the deviations in my story, but I am sure the small group of 'Wentworthites' who roam South Yorkshire would have me hung, drawn and quartered for not following the earl of Strafford's lifestory to the letter.

So should I be burnt at the stake for heresy or am I just a writer putting the fiction into Historical Fiction?

This is my key sticking point with my current WiP. Everything else is detail. Would be interesting to know people's thoughts.

Siri Kirpal · Jan 4, 2012

Sat Nam! (Liteally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I haven't written historical fiction...yet. But I have been in a situation of writing down episodes from Sikh history for which there were several conflicting stories. I picked the ones that worked best.

However, if I knew your timeperiod and were reading your book, I might be bothered with the inaccuracies. I would feel you hadn't done your research. I had a friend who wrote a historical fiction book for kids about Dante. She had him eating tomatoes. I emailed her and told her that tomatoes grew nowhere on the Italian penninsula in Dante's day.

So, if it were me, I would see if I could make those details a bit closer to reality.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Literateparakeet · Jan 4, 2012

I think it depends of course (I'm rarely a black and white "it must be done this was all the time" thinker.)

I have read a couple HF books that had a short note before or after the story that explains things like that. The most recent example I can think of was a movie. It was called 17 Miracles and it was about a group of handcart pioneers and some amazing (some would say miraculous) things that happened to them. At the beginning there is a narrator that says, "The events did not actually happen in the order they are presented in the movie." Quick, simple, but even non-writers understand that sometimes one needs a bit of "poetic license" to move a story forward.

Another time I read a HF series where the author got so many questions about what really happened and what was fiction that after the first book, the subsequent books had a "Notes" page at the end of each chapter, where the author said, "This xxxxxx, actually happened, but this xxxxx was needed to move the story forward." I'm not recommending that method. It was useful in that instance because the author was writing about American pioneers, and many of his readers were descendants of these pioneers. Therefore they were more interested in the nitty gritty than someone might be reading a HF book that has no connection to them personally.

So I would say yes, you can do the "white lies" thing if it is necessary. Just don't make a habit of it, or you will lose the trust of your readers.

Belle_91 · Jan 4, 2012

I would say in most historical fiction there are things that aren't accurate.

I did the same thing in my WIP. I had a real family that lived in Williamsburg stay a little bit longer then they really did. They left Virginia for England in the summer of 1775, but I have them at a ball in 1775-early party of 1776. However, I did make note of this in my author's note.

As long as you tell the readers after the story "he this dude didn't get married in year X, but year whatever" I think that's fine.

Alot of historical fiction writers take far more liberties with history. I'm sure you've heard of The Other Boleyn Girl. Ms. Gregory doesn't even mention the fact that Mary Boleyn was the mistress of the King of France before hooking up with Henry.

I think you're fine.

gothicangel · Jan 4, 2012

It wouldn't bother me, but beware there are a lot of arm-chair historians out there! Don't be surprised if you see people point out in inaccuracy on Amazon.

I definitely dabble where the historical record is lacking. My Roman current WIP is set several years of Hadrian's lover Antonous died in mysterious circumstances. Historians dispute whether it was an accident, self-sacrifice or murder. The murder theory is rejected by historians, I don't believe the self-sacrifice theory personally [doesn't fit Roman ideas.] The murder theories seem to circle Sabina [the empress] or Hadrian, and that Antonous had no imperial pretensions. So I wondered why not the Praetorians, and make it look like an accident? It wouldn't have been the first time, and if Antonous threatened their existence . . .

DeleyanLee · Jan 4, 2012

In Historical Fiction, that's what the "Author's Notes" are for. Many serious historical readers always check out the Author's Notes (sometimes before they read the book) to see what's been changed. Some see it as a self-quiz, some do it out of curiosity or ire, those that do it before (like me) do it to see if the changes take the book out of the enjoyment zone.

It's a good tool. Use it wisely.

And, FWIW, writers of other genres get the same kind of nit-picky complaints from small minded readers. I remember a Romance writer friend who got a nine page, handwritten letter, blasting her because "strawberries are ripe that time of year)--a whole SIX WEEKS earlier than what the reader thought was true.

I don't worry about it when writing (or reading), as long as the lie isn't so egregious that throws me out of the story.

Puma · Jan 4, 2012

Historical inaccuracies that can be found out have sunk books and aspiring novelists. If I were reading a HF and discovered an inaccuracy it could be the end of the book and author for me. But, as pointed out above, if there is an author's note that explains the liberties that were taken, the inaccuracy wouldn't bother me at all. I think this is a case of it being better to be upfront than take a chance on being found out. Puma

Raula · Jan 4, 2012

Siri Kirpal said:
Sat Nam! (Liteally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Siri Kirpal said:
However, if I knew your timeperiod and were reading your book, I might be bothered with the inaccuracies. I would feel you hadn't done your research. I had a friend who wrote a historical fiction book for kids about Dante. She had him eating tomatoes. I emailed her and told her that tomatoes grew nowhere on the Italian penninsula in Dante's day.

See I'm really particular about the food they ate, the clothes they wore, the type of furniture, rooms, roads, music, books etc. etc. because in some ways there's no reason for changing those details. Honest mistakes happen and I have made loads in the past, and will no doubt identify ones in this WiP, but that doesn't mean they should be left to misguide readers about the time period.

I suppose my concern is that the changes I've made to the lives of my hero and heroine have somehow distorted the truth about their lives. The main criticism many would give is that I've 'villainised' the hero -- but then, he wasn't all that nice a guy in reality!

Literateparakeet said:
I think it depends of course (I'm rarely a black and white "it must be done this was all the time" thinker.)

Literateparakeet said:
Another time I read a HF series where the author got so many questions about what really happened and what was fiction that after the first book, the subsequent books had a "Notes" page at the end of each chapter, where the author said, "This xxxxxx, actually happened, but this xxxxx was needed to move the story forward." I'm not recommending that method. It was useful in that instance because the author was writing about American pioneers, and many of his readers were descendants of these pioneers. Therefore they were more interested in the nitty gritty than someone might be reading a HF book that has no connection to them personally.

So I would say yes, you can do the "white lies" thing if it is necessary. Just don't make a habit of it, or you will lose the trust of your readers.

See, I don't mind reading end notes to learn about the person's research and decisions. The most fascinating I found was Daphne Du Maurier's End Notes after 'The King's General'. She had used what she knew of a historic figure and the name on a tombstone to create the story. It was meticulously researched and several accurate historical events were portrayed but you could still be a stickler and say the romance did not happen. I didn't. I thought it was inspired.

Belle_91 said:
I would say in most historical fiction there are things that aren't accurate.

Belle_91 said:
Alot of historical fiction writers take far more liberties with history. I'm sure you've heard of The Other Boleyn Girl. Ms. Gregory doesn't even mention the fact that Mary Boleyn was the mistress of the King of France before hooking up with Henry.

I think you're fine.

I really dislike Philippa Gregory for her manipulation of the truth in TOBG. She used Retha Warnicke’s biography of Anne Boleyn, the least credible piece of Tudor historiography ever, which makes assumptions of witchcraft practices and infidelity using late 16th Century biased sources. In regards Mary Boleyn, there is one document, Henry’s request for a papal dispensation to marry the sister of someone he’d had carnal relations with. That is all we know about her. They might have only done the business once. Yet despite all these blasphemies, it’s a worldwide bestseller and she’s gone on to be ‘the’ Tudor and Late Medieval novelist. So maybe the truth isn’t everything? I really don’t know… it goes against my beliefs as a historian.

Gothicangel, I like your philosophy for your WIP, sounds a unique interpretation and yet sensible at the same J

Puma said:
Historical inaccuracies that can be found out have sunk books and aspiring novelists. If I were reading a HF and discovered an inaccuracy it could be the end of the book and author for me. But, as pointed out above, if there is an author's note that explains the liberties that were taken, the inaccuracy wouldn't bother me at all. I think this is a case of it being better to be upfront than take a chance on being found out. Puma

I agree, honesty is the best tool. I would never purposely deceive my readers and I’m very aware of all these digressions I’ve made after months of studying the biographies of my hero. I always keep true to the essentials, but luckily, the 17th Century is far enough back that some of the more minor details are blurry.

Belle_91 · Jan 4, 2012

I know TOBG was a complete sham, but I didn't mind it so much. It is historical FICTION afterall, and it has been awhile since I read it. I might have a different opinion about it now then when I was in 8th grade.

I will say that I think a story about the real Mary Boleyn--at least one that was more accurate--would be fasinating. A story about her affairs with both Kings, her relationship with her sister, all that good stuff.

I did NOT like how Philippa Gregory had Anne and George Boleyn having sex. I can't say for sure--no one really can--but I would think that did NOT happen. Don't they believe George was gay?

I would like to read her author's note. If I were her I would have made loud and clear that this is historical fiction, shouldn't be taken literally, and that there were aspects of Mary's life that I chose not to tell.

I don't think though, I would take as many liberties as she did.

Deb Kinnard · Jan 4, 2012

It seems to me as a reader that the overall trend is toward more literary license, not less. I'm picky about the stories I already know and the period in which I love to read and study. Other eras, less so. But it wouldn't make me wallbang a work of historical fic if I knew the author had moved a birth up by a year or so, or had them stay in Williamsburg 6 months longer than they actually did.

I agree with the others who say an author's note is appropriate.

Danielz · Jan 4, 2012

I always try first to use history in my favor. I research first to find interesting occurrences and characters to put on my novel. Of course, if changing a minor detail improves a lot the story then you should change it. For example have you seen “The patriot”? In real life the MC hunted Indians and raped his slaves (who didn’t were free like in the movie). On the other hand the english never burned a church with civilians inside in the war. In this case it paid off to be unfaithful to history, even though those didn’t were minor inaccuracies.

Histry Nerd · Jan 4, 2012

Hey, Raula -

My approach to historical fiction is to focus not so much on "what happened?" as on "what was it like to live it?" For my current (American Civil War) WIP, I've taken a cue from Patrick O'Brian--I've created a fictitious regiment populated by people who never existed and placed them in the middle of events that really happened. I'll be sure to explain what I've changed, as well as give credit to the real units and people involved in the real events, in my author's note.

Remember, it's not a lie, white or any other color, unless you're trying to deceive your reader. That would be foolish. Bending history for the sake of your story is neither uncommon nor egregious, as long as you're straight with your readers.

And some people will take exception no matter how accurate you are.

For what it's worth.
HN

Hip-Hop-a-potamus · Jan 5, 2012

I'm doing my best to stay accurate to my subject (a Ziegfeld girl turned silent film actress). I'm having a film scholar look it over right now for glaring problems.

Most that he found were timeline issues-- she was here rather than there at this time, but he also found some real problems with issues in her marriage, etc.

SOME of this is easy enough to fix, and some of what he tells me conflicts with basic understood facts of her life, so I'm having to sort through what to take and what to leave. He's visited the sources where most of the articles about her reside, and I haven't seen them, so I know he knows what he's talking about.

But something he told me that has stuck with me...my main character is like the story of the blind men with the elephant, each grasping a different part and describing it differently. And she was such a little minx, she liked lying to the tabloids at the time for more publicity. So in her case, a little poetic license is to be expected, and I think it reads better. My expert really liked her personality, and so did my writing group, who critiqued Chapter One for me. So I'm pretty happy with where it's headed so far.

areteus · Jan 5, 2012

The only danger with this is that you are risking creating misconceptions which some history teacher may have to undo... because fiction is more visceral than the average text book on history, people are more likely to see it as the truth, especially if it is a visual media like Rome or The Tudors (both of which have come under fire on this board and in many other places for historical inaccuracies).

So, it comes down to whether you want to educate or entertain and if the latter, make sure you use the author's notes to cover your back from the history nerds (who will probably lambast you anyway, no matter how accurate you think you are being... It comes with the territory of HF).

I think there is less danger from letting people think that someone was born or died a few years earlier or later (especially if it is a very minor person in history - i.e. so long as one of your misplaced characters is not Abraham Lincoln or someone else whose birth and death dates are very well recorded) than if you said they ate or wore something inappropriate to the period. More people will notice the latter and complain that it threw out their sense of disbelief whereas only real nerds will bother to look up accurate dates in order to find something to complain about.

Raula · Jan 5, 2012

areteus said:
The only danger with this is that you are risking creating misconceptions which some history teacher may have to undo... because fiction is more visceral than the average text book on history, people are more likely to see it as the truth, especially if it is a visual media like Rome or The Tudors (both of which have come under fire on this board and in many other places for historical inaccuracies).

I am a history teacher in training so I'm very conscious of ensuring the details of my hero's political life are accurate, since they are the only details that school pupils are likely to learn about (if they learn anything about him at all, since he isn't too well known). I cannot find a birthdate for his second son but I'm guessing it was not long before his deathdate since his surviving children's births are recorded... but I've changed that since there's no hard evidence to refute it wasn't earlier.

Hmmm, I'm really glad to hear nobody come back to me with 'No you must never ever use poetic license!' It seems everyone has to one small degree or another.

angeliz2k · Jan 5, 2012

Raula said:
I am a history teacher in training so I'm very conscious of ensuring the details of my hero's political life are accurate, since they are the only details that school pupils are likely to learn about (if they learn anything about him at all, since he isn't too well known). I cannot find a birthdate for his second son but I'm guessing it was not long before his deathdate since his surviving children's births are recorded... but I've changed that since there's no hard evidence to refute it wasn't earlier.

Hmmm, I'm really glad to hear nobody come back to me with 'No you must never ever use poetic license!' It seems everyone has to one small degree or another.

Without poetic license, it would be nonfiction!

It's a delicate balance between truth and telling a good story. How much is too much?

I worry about this slightly in the WIP I'm currently querying. In reality, the main character died a pretty miserable death just a little before the French Revolution began. I wanted her to see the Revolution, so I invented a way for her to stay alive until 1793 to see the execution of Marie-Antoinette. (Her cousin is confused for her, so everyone thinks she died.)

Too much? Perhaps. But I felt it was crucial to make the link between the story I was telling and the Revolution, and since it was told in first person my only other choice was to have her narrate as a ghost or spirit of some kind.

It's a fine line--and there's lots of room for interpretation, too. That falls under "artistic license". For instance, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm reading Sharon Kay Penman's Sunne in Splendour, which casts Richard III as a hero. Given the evidence, it's a perfectly valid interpretation, even if other interpretations have him as the villain. They're using the same pool of evidence, but choosing to pay attention to different pieces of it and reading those pieces of evidence in different ways.

History has so many gaps that sometimes there's no choice but to take a leap of faith.

Lil · Jan 5, 2012

It's obviously more of a problem if you are writing about real historical figures. You're not only stuck with the chronology but you're stuck with their actual personalities (when these are known). If you are going to change chronology, you really need to include an author's note explaining why you did so, or some readers are going to get annoyed. (I assume there is a reason for the actual historical figure rather than a fictional character based on the historical figure. The Earl of Sherwood instead of the Earl of Stafford can do anything you like.)

It's also a good idea to add an author's note any time you use an little-known law or a medical procedure a hundred years before most people think it was used. It preempts all those letters that start "You moron."

pdr · Jan 6, 2012

Er...excuse me but...

did you say you were writing about the Wentworths? The Earl of Strafford, as in Thomas, 1st Earl? Executed because King Charles was weak when he should have been strong? (Charles never did get that right did he?)

Any one in the UK doing history at school will have come across the Earl. You are writing fiction but about a real notorious person. You will deserve to be hung if you deviated wildly from the important truths for no better reason than "it makes a good story." If you make Thomas a weak, shilly shallying man who hates honour, his King and country then you will have your readers vowing never to read your work again and the nation's history teachers after your blood. Quite rightly too.

Minor changes for reasons of a better story are acceptable and must, repeat must, be noted in an author's note at the front of the novel. Your readers are important and you need to treat them as such with a civilised explanation of why you altered the wedding and death.

This is always the trouble when a writer takes a well documented historical person and tries to fictionalise their life. So much is generally known or thought to be known. I disliked Gregory's books for this reason and wish she and other writers would darn well consider more carefully before indulging in flights of fancy.

Raula · Jan 6, 2012

pdr said:
did you say you were writing about the Wentworths? The Earl of Strafford, as in Thomas, 1st Earl? Executed because King Charles was weak when he should have been strong? (Charles never did get that right did he?)

Any one in the UK doing history at school will have come across the Earl. You are writing fiction but about a real notorious person. You will deserve to be hung if you deviated wildly from the important truths for no better reason than "it makes a good story." If you make Thomas a weak, shilly shallying man who hates honour, his King and country then you will have your readers vowing never to read your work again and the nation's history teachers after your blood. Quite rightly too.

Minor changes for reasons of a better story are acceptable and must, repeat must, be noted in an author's note at the front of the novel. Your readers are important and you need to treat them as such with a civilised explanation of why you altered the wedding and death.

This is always the trouble when a writer takes a well documented historical person and tries to fictionalise their life. So much is generally known or thought to be known. I disliked Gregory's books for this reason and wish she and other writers would darn well consider more carefully before indulging in flights of fancy.

Strafford, a weak man of no honour???? My blood is racing at the thought. He is anything but - and I would never have wished to write about him otherwise.

Yes, they teach his political life in schools but unless a South Yorkshire school decide to do a depth study into his life as part of a local history project, there's nothing covered by either KS3 or KS5 curriculum on his personal life. In the SoW I'm designing at the moment, I will look at the way he ruled Ireland and I'll ask the kids whether that justifies the use an attainder at his trial, but then I'll move on.

The changes I've made are all to his personal life. I've followed his political career and his political persona to the tee. However, I am writing a romance from the POV of his third wife, so some things need to happen that go against what really happened. I'd be all for putting these in an author note.

gothicangel · Jan 6, 2012

I have a strict policy of not messing with anything that is in the historical record. What I do, do, is hunt out the gaps in the historical record and play 'what if?'

I spent a long time research the abandonment of the Antonine Wall, for my novel. After a lot of reading, I had a time period that consisted of between 158 [Antonius Pius orders the the rebuilding of Hadrian's wall, and Troops sent to war zones in other parts of the Empire] and 163/64 [Marcus Aurelius succession/staggered withdrawal to Hadrian's Wall/rebuilding of Corbridge.]

Belle_91 · Jan 6, 2012

Question--when you submit work to an agent, should you put the author's note at the beginning or end. I've never seen an authors note at the beginning of a completeled novel.

Thanks.

areteus · Jan 6, 2012

I would think it was part of the novel and therefore should be submitted where you think it should go in the text as it would be seen by a reader. Usually this is at the end but not sure there is a rule about it. If the editor wants to remove it or move it elsewhere in the manuscript they can do that at the appropriate time.

I always work on the assumption that the manuscript you send is what the editor who reads it assumes will be exactly what you want published, with no extras other than what they suggest as part of edits.

Sargentodiaz · Jan 6, 2012

Without poetic license, it would be nonfiction!

I totally agree! The "art" of historical fiction, as someone else pointed out, is to give the reader the sense and feel of the period and the people who lived in it. And, that's where Authors' Notes are so important.

Raula · Jan 6, 2012

Belle, I would put it at the end. If for no other reason than the fact that I don't want any agent to be reading about how I fiddled with history in what is a traditional novel before reading the work. They might forgive me if they enjoyed it at the end

I love gaps in historical knowledge, gothicangel. It frustrates all other historians but I think if we knew everything about history, it would be as dull as present politics

oldhousejunkie · Jan 12, 2012

gothicangel said:
I have a strict policy of not messing with anything that is in the historical record. What I do, do, is hunt out the gaps in the historical record and play 'what if?'

This.

My educational background is history so I'm pretty strict too. I can't count the number of times that I got mad and threw a book across the room because of historical inaccuracies. So I am generally uncomfortable making changes to the historical record, but I wouldn't start a witch hunt because a writer did. In most cases, that is. Moving up (or down) significant historical events is a major no-no in my book.

But with that being said, toying with the timeline on things like marriages or births, or someone being somewhere a month before they really were, is small potatoes. I couldn't give a rats' behind about whether not a couple got married in the country versus the city or if their child was born a year before they really were. Some pretty major novelists have added author's notes at the end and have had done with it. So personally, I think you're a-ok.

And snaps for taking on a real person as your main character. I find that horribly intimidating for the reasons detailed in this thread!

White lies in historical fiction?

Raula

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process

Literateparakeet

Nerdy Budgie

Belle_91

With her nose stuck in a book

gothicangel

Toughen up.

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Raula

Belle_91

With her nose stuck in a book

Deb Kinnard

Danielz

Histry Nerd

Moving Forward!

Hip-Hop-a-potamus

My rhymes are bottomless

areteus

Raula

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

Lil

pdr

Raula

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Belle_91

With her nose stuck in a book

areteus

Sargentodiaz

Raula

oldhousejunkie