Dan Brown--is it me???

I'd kick Dan Brown's ass in a wrasslin match

I don't like his writing style, nor his characters (I find them too Mary-Sueish for my tastes). As for the ideas, yes, I can understand the interest his books gather.

I was definitely curious about the Da Vinci Code. I felt cheated, though, because of the way the book was advertised as "full of research and secrets and yaddi yadda and true schtuff of doom", when in fact it's... not. But that's a marketing problem, not an idea problem.

If you enjoy his books, you enjoy his books. If you don't, you don't.

I think this thread is merely a severe case of hype backlash.

Aidan Watson-Morris said:

You complimented him on his ability to make books commercially optimum.

"No matter the quality of the actual writing, there's always something writers can learn from those who have been very successful - even if it's what NOT to do. "

I'd say that's bashing.

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If you consider that bashing, you must have very thin skin. I also didn't say "no matter the quality of DAN BROWN'S writing." I could have been speaking of any commercially successful author that is by and large also considered hack by the writer's community.

If you think he stinks as a writer, ya have to appreciate what he's done with his lack of writing skills. While everyone is asking, why? I'm asking, how?

Writing isn't my problem, selling it is.

jana13k said:

If you consider that bashing, you must have very thin skin. I also didn't say "no matter the quality of DAN BROWN'S writing." I could have been speaking of any commercially successful author that is by and large also considered hack by the writer's community.

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I was using it as an example because you were insulting Dan Brown, even if slightly ("even if it's what not to do") right after the post saying book bashing only.

Aidan - you're exhausting me. It is likely very easy to find someone calling Dan Brown everything under the sun. Please stop putting words into my posts. I like Dan Brown. I have all his books. I enjoyed them. But I would have to live under a rock to not be aware of what many publishing industry professionals think about the quality of his work.

Why does it matter to you so much what people think? I have no problem saying I like his books. Do you think it somehow speaks less of you to say you enjoy something other people don't? Does that somehow make you less valid as a writer? I don't think it does. That's why there are brown cars and green cars. Because all people do not like the same thing. And all people read for different reasons. I read solely for escape, which is why DB's novels appeal to me. They are entertaining and fast-paced and I don't have to take on a lesson about myself or the world or keep notes while reading.

jana13k said:

Aidan - you're exhausting me. It is likely very easy to find someone calling Dan Brown everything under the sun. Please stop putting words into my posts. I like Dan Brown. I have all his books. I enjoyed them. But I would have to live under a rock to not be aware of what many publishing industry professionals think about the quality of his work.

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That was not clear from your earlier posts.

Why does it matter to you so much what people think?

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...It doesn't. I was using it as an example. Like I have said. Twice.

I have no problem saying I like his books. Do you think it somehow speaks less of you to say you enjoy something other people don't?

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No. Not at all. As a matter of fact, I'm a huge fan of several books that are considered to be terrible. Including the DaVinci Code. I'm just defending the DaVinci Code using the reasons I believe it's good.

Does that somehow make you less valid as a writer?

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No. I hate C.S. Lewis, love J.R.R. Tolkein and Tolkein loved Lewis' work. So...no.

*checks watch*

Good Lord, it's been HOW LONG without a Dan Brown thread?! We're gettin' sloppy here, people!

Up next: how the election of Barack Obama led to the popularity of Stephenie Meyer.

quicklime said:

OK, so I'm listening to the audio version of Angels and Demons, and I gotta ask--is Brown supposed to be good, or is he in league with the lady who wrote Twilight and then guy who wrote Bridges of Madison County as an example of how if you hit the market right, technique becomes, umm, a bit less of a necessity?

I got through about three chapters before I found myself going "seriously, wtf!?!". Now, to be fair, I'm still listening, but the guy seems to bring all the subtlety and nuance of a sledgehammer; I'm waiting for the assassin to say something "evilly, as he twirled his long moustache...."

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Whoever told you technique, or how well you write, meant anything? Though I would suggest reading, rather than listening.

Poor writing? Absolutely. Not horrible, nowhere near slush pile bad, just not very good. The quality of Brown's writing is poor, it is bad, but it's competent, and that's all it takes, if you have the things that really matter.

Now, Da Vinci Code sucks at many levels, including the incredibly inept and inaccurate research that Brown actually claims is fact. It sucks in the quality of the writing. It has cardboard characters. On and on.

But Brown found a story readers wanted, and gave them characters they liked. If you can do this, most readers simply don't care about poor writing. Nor should they. Most have no clue what is good or bad writing. Nor should they. Darned few read fiction in order to savor the quality of the writing. They want story and character, not writing. Good for them.

Meyer is also competent, not as bad as many try to say she is, and also has a story and characters that readers love.

Waller isn't nearly as bad as many claim, and it's primarily his dialogue that comes across as pretty stilted.

But Brown, Meyer, and Waller all did the thing that every writer should strive to do, which is find the story and the characters that readers love. Asking more than this from any writer simply isn't fair.

BenPanced said:

*checks watch*

Good Lord, it's been HOW LONG without a Dan Brown thread?! We're gettin' sloppy here, people!

Up next: how the election of Barack Obama led to the popularity of Stephenie Meyer.

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Win.

BenPanced said:

Good Lord, it's been HOW LONG without a Dan Brown thread?! We're gettin' sloppy here, people!

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The man dangles in our minds like the gonads of Satan in the conscience of a mortal sinner.

I was...referring...to the post...that said not to....bash authors.......

Okay, seriously, I have no problem with people criticizing Dan Brown. In some cases, I'll defend him, in others, I won't.

But criticizing an author is what the post was referring to that said to stick to talking books only please.

So, let's think about it this way; if that post said to talk about books only, why would I refer to the people who weren't talking about books. I'm not saying your criticisms to harsh, I'm saying that several of them were just about Dan Brown. And they were. That is a fact.

I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with that. I was...read the earlier posts, please.

So how exactly should one talk about an author's work without actually talking about the author? Bashing is saying he hates puppies or needs wardrobe advice. Commenting on his writing ability, which is clear in his books, is not bashing.

And as has already been said, he doesn't need to construct great prose to give readers what they want. Nor do I think he cares what a bunch of people on the AW (or any other) forum think.

jana13k said:

So how exactly should one talk about an author's work without actually talking about the author? Bashing is saying he hates puppies or needs wardrobe advice. Commenting on his writing ability, which is clear in his books, is not bashing.

And as has already been said, he doesn't need to construct great prose to give readers what they want. Nor do I think he cares what a bunch of people on the AW (or any other) forum think.

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I wasn't disapproving of it, as I have said, I was merely responding to the comment saying not to bash authors, just talk about books. They said "bash", but I think they meant just criticize specific books. I could be wrong.

Aidan - please explain to me how "even if what not to do" is a personal attack on the man himself? It's a very common suggestion to writers to analyse books they find lacking in whatever respect and to learn from that what they don't want to do in their own writing. We can learn from Dan Brown a thing or two about finding a topic that hooks into people, we can certainly learn the art of using a cliffhanger chapter ending to propel readers to read on. But we can also, by finding elements of his writing not so hot, learn what we don't want to do as writers ourselves. Frankly I have spoken to enough people to learn that while cliffhanger chapter endings do work, his overuse of them for many people was annoying. That has taught me as a writer that I should use cliffhangers sparingly. It has taught me "what not to do".

How is this bashing the man? I sincerely don't understand why you think it is. Bashing the man would be something about the man himself. Talking about the writing, about how for many authors we can learn techniques we'd rather not use by having read his work and found them annoying in his, that's not bashing.

Now I realise you like his work, but I hope you aren't implying that when someone disagrees with you that's bashing.

Also, bringing in the sour grapes argument, especially on this forum, is really not the smartest move. It isn't true, for one thing, and it is overused often in these threads. It's rude as it suggests that no differing opinion counts as it's just based on petty jealousy, and most of all it lessens the strength of your arguments because the sort of person who resorts to "this is just hype backlash" or "this is sour grapes and you're all jealous" tends not to have any other solid argument to support his feelings on the writing in question. Not saying this is true of you, but this is true of many who use that argument and in choosing to use it, you get tainted with their bad reputation.


ETA: uh no. Bashing means putting down a person, not the work. And the reason some people mentioned it in this thread is that Dan Brown is one of the most talked about authors on this forum, for the exact reason the OP started the thread. I'd say it's him, Stephenie Meyer and James Patterson. Thus there's a huge risk that the thread can devolve into personal attacks. However I maintain "learning what not to do" is not a personal attack.

I don't get why saying "even if it's what not to do" is author bashing. That's clearly criticism of the book/writing, not the author.

ETA: cross-posted with Toothpaste. Agree 100%.

Toothpaste said:

Aidan - please explain to me how "even if what not to do" is a personal attack on the man himself? It's a very common suggestion to writers to analyse books they find lacking in whatever respect and to learn from that what they don't want to do in their own writing. We can learn from Dan Brown a thing or two about finding a topic that hooks into people, we can certainly learn the art of using a cliffhanger chapter ending to propel readers to read on. But we can also, by finding elements of his writing not so hot, learn what we don't want to do as writers ourselves. Frankly I have spoken to enough people to learn that while cliffhanger chapter endings do work, his overuse of them for many people was annoying. That has taught me as a writer that I should use cliffhangers sparingly. It has taught me "what not to do".

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Okay, all good points.

How is this bashing the man? I sincerely don't understand why you think it is. Bashing the man would be something about the man himself. Talking about the writing, about how for many authors we can learn techniques we'd rather not use by having read his work and found them annoying in his, that's not bashing.

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Okay, I was responding to the person who said let's only talk about books. That's who I was referring to and then the other person asked how they were talking about the author and this started.

Now I realise you like his work, but I hope you aren't implying that when someone disagrees with you that's bashing.

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Not at all.

Also, bringing in the sour grapes argument, especially on this forum, is really not the smartest move. It isn't true, for one thing, and it is overused often in these threads. It's rude as it suggests that no differing opinion counts as it's just based on petty jealousy, and most of all it lessens the strength of your arguments because the sort of person who resorts to "this is just hype backlash" or "this is sour grapes and you're all jealous" tends not to have any other solid argument to support his feelings on the writing in question. Not saying this is true of you, but this is true of many who use that argument and in choosing to use it, you get tainted with their bad reputation.

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Okay, "hype backlash" and "you're all just jealous" are two different arguments. For example, I loved the movie Avatar, but many people I know hated it because they had been told it was the greatest movie ever and they thought it was anything but. I meant, his work isn't the best but is treated as such by some and so the rest have a larger negative reaction to his work.

ETA: uh no. Bashing means putting down a person, not the work. And the reason some people mentioned it in this thread is that Dan Brown is one of the most talked about authors on this forum, for the exact reason the OP started the thread. I'd say it's him, Stephenie Meyer and James Patterson. Thus there's a huge risk that the thread can devolve into personal attacks. However I maintain "learning what not to do" is not a personal attack.

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Read the post. They say "don't bash authors, just talk about the book" So regardless of your definition of "bash", they obviously just want people talking about the book. And I don't even fully agree with them.

aruna said:

I don't get why saying "even if it's what not to do" is author bashing. That's clearly criticism of the book/writing, not the author.

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Okay, as I have said several times now, the person I was replying to - who I didn't even fully agree with - said no author bashing, just talking about the book. Which means they don't want to talk about the author, regardless of the definition of bash. So I said that people were talking about the author, as I felt that it was a criticism of the author's writing and is criticism.

Aidan Watson-Morris said:

Okay, "hype backlash" and "you're all just jealous" are two different arguments.

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They are two different arguments that say the same thing, which is: "You are just saying what you are saying because of feelings based on nothing that has to do with the book itself." Both arguments can be sound in some circumstances. There are individuals who will put something down just because it is popular. There are others who are jealous of people and thus put down their work.

My point is that these sorts of people tend not to be at AW.

And in using these arguments you are saying that the person with whom you are debating doesn't have a valid opinion based on the work in question. That they are being blinded by other elements. So while both make different points, they still diss the person with whom you are arguing.

Aidan Watson-Morris said:

Read the post. They say "don't bash authors, just talk about the book" So regardless of your definition of "bash", they obviously just want people talking about the book. And I don't even fully agree with them.

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When someone says you can learn what not to do from a book, they are talking about the book. They aren't bashing the author. I still don't understand what you are going on about. Bashing the author would be "Dan Brown is a horrible person and I hate his hair". Whereas "even if what not to do" is clearly about his writing. Unless of course you were under the impression that the "what not to do" had something to do with his personal lifestyle or something. Which could be an honest mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

Has anyone ever noticed that sometimes writers seem to have the worst reading comprehension and communication abilities? LOL

He really should do something with his hair