your philosophy of when to get novel feedback

lorna_w said:

My position was that it's not good to ask for critique early on in a draft of a novel. You should have the whole thing drafted, fiddle with it, then ask.

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I've learned this the hard way. Critique, well-meant or not, interferes with my head, even though I might not be aware of it. I've had three or four projects derailed by getting suggestions and critiques before the first draft was done.

As for your questions:

1. I'm working on my ninth project, five of which have resulted in finished novels, and two of which have been published.

2. Early on, I got critiques almost chapter by chapter, until about project #5, when I discovered how destructive it was. The published novels were written since that epiphany, although I have to emphasize that I depended heavily on critique once the first draft was done.

3. I'd say, avoid my mistake, and wait until your first draft is finished. I'd also expect them to ignore my advice. Everyone wants to know how well they're doing.

lorna_w said:

1) How many novels have you written?

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I've written 9 novel-length fanfics, and three original novels (many years ago) that I never sought publication for.

lorna_w said:

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

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I edit/revise as I write, so when I feel the chapter is finished, it goes to my betas. However - and it's a big "however" - I will also post bits and pieces to my betas if they're giving me particular problems. So it's not an "always/never" situation.

lorna_w said:

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

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See number 2 - either when they feel the chapter is as complete as they can get it, or when they're having trouble and need additional input.

Sometimes, particularly with new writers, they just aren't sure if they're getting it 'right'. As long as they make it clear they're looking for confirmation that they they are, or some direction if they're not, I see no reason not to post for critique.

Bear in mind, I haven't posted or critiqued here, so that's based on other critique groups I've run or participated in.

As I'm working on my current revision, I know there is that looming day when I'm going to have to show it to someone else.

1) I have written five novels, although the current one (#5) is based on the same characters as #2.

2) I used to ask really early on for critiques. My first one was posted on my blog in its entirety after a second draft. My second one was sent to a few friends, after I cleaned up the first draft, because I sent it into a contest. One of the reasons that I signed up here was to try to find a critique group. I know I need one and bless my friends, but none of them are writers, so they don't quite know what to do.

3)I would tell a new writer to ask for a critique after a second draft, at the very least. You have your ideas down, you have some grasp on your plot and characters. Clean it up before you show it to anybody.

Eight novels, two published, one about to be and two that may be. I never show my work until I believe it is polished enough to be sent to an agent or publisher. Then I show it only to my ruthless Beta reader who can do line and overview critiques at the same time. I have never liked group critiques -- too many opinions and revelations of biases.

1) Eight, all unpublished
2) After my first edit (second draft). My wife sends it back to me with line edits.
3) Whenever. The earlier it is, the less it will hurt.

lorna_w said:

I had a polite conversation over in SYW with Fabor about when to ask for critique and wanted to ask your good opinions.

My position was that it's not good to ask for critique early on in a draft of a novel. You should have the whole thing drafted, fiddle with it, then ask. My concern is especially with new writers who come here, have less than 100 posts, probably are on their first novels, that they post the only chapter they've written and it's not very good and they are told so, and that's going to hurt them and maybe even stop them dead. i don't believe it is an absolute truth, but I've heard similar sentiments in martial arts, graduate school, etc....and there is a very large sliver of truth in it:

You want to do something "hard". Fine, great. Excellent, in fact...too many people see a challenge and shrink from it. But it isn't my job to validate you--either you've got it in you, or you don't. Support is one of those "beggars can't be choosers" things; you can always hope for it, but it isn't a God-given right you can expect. Again, either you validate and motivate yourself, or you don't, and if you're dependent on getting it from others, you probably won't go far..at least until you toughen up. Because this is bruising.

the other night in the weight room a couple very buff college kids were doing bench presses, so I had to try to bench what they were....why? because I'm older, but I'm stubborn.....if I find a challenge, I go for it. So, I did get smacked around in SYW....it made me more determined. I know not everyone motivates that way, but I do believe if you can't find some well of inspiration similar to this, and someone can shut you down with a single rough critique session, your odds were already about the same as Hell putting in a bid to host the next winter olympics. You are the only one you can count on, and you need to motivate you. If you can only do it with the adoration of others, you;re screwed.....because early on you don't deserve adoration, and you won't get to a "later on" without some serious cuts and bruises. I'm not talking "hazing", I'm saying anything you craft, be it stories or cabinets, is gonna start out with a lot of shitty work. And a pat on the back isn't a realistic expectation for that. Taking your ball and going home in response to truth, because it was all sting-y and harsh, is only going to stunt your growth. Learn from your mistakes....and on that note, expect many, many learning opportunities.

Others would say "well, good." Flannery O'Connor on if writing programs stifle writers comes to mind: "[It] doesn't stifle enough of them." or, "Tough, if you can't take rejection, it's the wrong business for you." i'd be far more likely to have a beer or six with him, I guess....we are largely in sync.

But I cringe for the tender young writer, the delicacy of the creative dream, and I wish they'd wait a bit. where else does this happen, though? There is no cushy pre-grad admission program for graduate school where folks give you special treatment, you sink or swim. There is no sub-basic training, where new enlistees can run three blocks, do a push-up, and get a gold star while they work up the courage to go into actual basic training.....much of life is sink or swim. Including writing. Some folks will get more help than others, but that is the base denominator.

So some questions for discussion:


1) How many novels have you written? near done with one. Which may mean you want to disregard my input completely, and you're absolutely free to do so...I'm free with my opinions, but don't try to pretend I have stacks of experience.
2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted) varies...I subbed one piece to see if I was "going in the right direction" but also made that very clear. In general, when I believe it is "ready"...so other people can point out all the stuff I'm NOT seeing, rather than re-identify things I already know are bad.

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique? either a very rought one to see if they were headed in the right direction, being very clear on that from the get-go, or when the piece was as good as they could make it....but only when it was as polished as possible

Thanks--look forward to an interesting discussion (and/or link me to another similar thread. I did a search but didn't see one.)

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hope it helped


Note: I do pep-talk people on not-so-rare occasion....because I choose to. I just think the idea anyone is entitled to this is wrong....it can be a great thing, but if you're relying on it, you're gonna end up crushed. That's all....the praise won't come quickly or thickly enough to sustain you if you can't sustain yourself.

My rule of thumb:

I go for critique when I absolutely cannot move forward without it (ie, I may know I have niggles/problems but I need an outside view to help me see them. If I can see them myself, I fix it before I ask for crit)

This stage is different with every project, depending, but if I find myself sitting there going 'I know there's a problem, but I don't know what it is and/or maybe the problem I have is not the problem everyone else might have - I can't make it any better on my own - then it's time to crit, provided everything else is as good as I can make it.

Oops forgot the questions:

1) How many novels have you written?

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On my ninth (wait, no, is it tenth?). All bar one, I managed to sell. Actually I've sold one and a bit I haven't written yet...

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

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See above. However, if I'm asking a non writer (hubby or best mate) it might be earlier, for instance just to see if an idea works.

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

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As above (if we are talking critique from other writers, rather than just does this work etc)- when you can't make it any better yourself. If you just want to see if something off the wall will fly...anytime, as long as you've worked at it as best you can.

I think the biggest problem is new writers misunderstanding what SYW is for. If you are posting there to get reassurance that you are a good writer, you are likely to be very disappointed.

You have to post in SYW really looking for feedback, and understanding that writers even see errors and things that could be improved in published works.

1) How many novels have you written? I'm working on the first one.

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

Early! I asked for crits in SYW about the voice I intended to use. I got valuable feedback that I was telling too much (the ban of many newbies). I'm glad to have had that advice early on rather than later.

Then I shared my rough draft of the first 3,000 wds or so to my crit partner. He was encouraging, but also told me that my characters were flat and non-descript. Phew! I was glad to hear that now rather than at the end.

This feedback has been invaluable to me, and I believe my first draft will be much better because of it. But again when I asked for crits it was because I wanted crits, not attaboys.

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

I would advise a new writer not to ask for crits as a way for proving to themselves that they are a good writer. Wait until you have some confidence, or at least determination, that your piece will work, but knowing you could use some help to improve it.

Personally I think most story concepts can benefit from feedback in the pre-writing stage. Then, IMO, the writer should work on the first draft by themselves unless and until they get stuck. The most distracting feedback is people telling you you have problems in chapter one when you need all your concentration to rough out a first draft of chapter two.

Flannery O'Connor and I would get on well, methinks. But I'm all cynical like that, anyways.

1) How many novels have you written?

Three full novels, as well as a novella and a number of shorter fics.

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

Typically after the second draft. Gives me time to go through, make sure my plotline is sound, and fill holes. After I've got the plotline solid, I need others to tell me if the characters are resonating, what the detail level is like, if I've blindly dropped subplots all over the place. I also like to ask for two sets of critiques on novels-- once after the second draft, and again from a mix of people once I've finished the "final". Just in case.

I don't show work to people as I'm drafting, because I find that counterproductive. You'll end up with too many other voices in your head that way; trust me when I say one inner critic is enough.

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

After you're done. First drafts are hard, I get it. I've been there. Your best bet is to grit your teeth and get the thing done. Sure, you can commisserate about how terrible the thing is going or ask for suggestions on plot problems, but for full-on crits, wait. At least until the first draft is done, but preferably until after it's cooled for a bit and you've done a second run through.

lorna_w said:

1) How many novels have you written?

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One or almost three, depending on you look at it. One very long one, but it will be divided into three volumes, the third of which I am finishing up, after which the whole will be sent to my agent.

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

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Here's how my experience went.

After I had written the first three or four chapters of the work, I discovered an online writer's workshop where you could post chapters for critique, in exchange for doing a certain number of critiques of others' work.

I jumped at the opportunity. And it was the best thing I ever did. I'd say it shortened my learning curve considerably, because with each round of responses, I learned new things that I could carry forward in the next chapters. (I never posted rewrites, but took what I learned and applied it not only to the current chapter, but also future ones.) I also received enough praise that I was motivated to keep trying, but what was even more motivating was my determination to eliminate any reasons for complaint. So I applied myself and learned a tremendous amount.

I have long since dropped out of that workshop--it became a matter of time investment vs diminishing returns--so now I just send chunks as I finish them to a group of beta readers--most of whom I met either in that group or a different group that I joined for a time.

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

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Based on my own experience, I certainly can't advise them to wait until the first draft is finished, unless their confidence is in such a fragile state that they'd be unable to accept critique. And there's nothing wrong with that. Not every writer needs to hear critique when they're first starting out. It helped me, but that doesn't mean it will help everyone.

But if they can take it, I'd urge them to try it. Just make sure to pick a good critique group. Oh, and try to submit work that is the most polished you can make it at the time.

Five novels written, four published and the other under contract. One WIP is about half-written (rough draft).

I seek critique when I have the manuscript/sample in the best possible shape I can get it. I want people to critique my best work, not my half-baked work.

My advice to new writers: Do not submit anything for critique until you get it in your best possible shape. Nothing is more frustrating than critting something that is obviously either a rough draft or just slightly removed from a rough draft. It's not the critter's job to do a line-by-line edit unless that is what he/she chooses to do, yet a rough draft frequently needs that kind of attention. And many of the corrections I've seen in obvious rough samples are things the writer him/herself could easily have caught, or should certainly be able to catch if he/she is cut out for this business. Make sure what you are seeking is a critique, not an editing job (there is a huge difference).

I'm writing my first novel, but I've had a nonfiction book and numerous articles published and a screenplay optioned, plus I write training courses for a living.

I am a plotter to the extreme. My "rough" draft isn't very rough, and I'm experienced enough not to be unduly influenced by other people. I get chapter-by-chapter input from one really good friend (who is a published author and an editor). I generally don't do mass critiques unless something is bugging me, and I want general input.

I *might* ask a friend to read large sections as they're done, for a slightly different perspective than my chapter-critiquer can give. I wil definitely ask for betas when I have a complete manuscript.

I want my work to be in GOOD shape when I ask someone to read it. No spelling or grammar issues, and basic editing already done.

Hmmm.... interesting thoughts. I started writing really young so all my early feedback was tempered by the fact that I was an eleven-year-old beginner rather than a adult beginner. If I was starting now... I think it would be a terrible idea for me to get feedback for years. I think I'm at a good point for it now... but that's after thirteen years of writing. I'm stupidly sensitive and perfectionist so that's probably a bit extreme, but still, it takes time to get to the right level of confidence and realism in regards to your writing.

Specific answers:

1. My current novel is my First Serious Novel, but actually it's my fourth ever.

2. I would never, ever, ever show someone a first draft. It's too vulnerable and too awful. I personally don't ask for any feedback until I myself am completely satisfied I've done what I wanted to do with it-- then it's time to make sure that's coming across to everyone else.

3. It depends on the person. Some people can receive criticism without taking it personally and using it as a spur to improving. I admire this very much, because it's something I struggle with (and am working on). I shared some of my earlier work but for years no one ever read anything I wrote, ever, unless it was for school. I think at that point I realized I wasn't good yet and I couldn't stand anyone seeing anything of mine that wasn't good. Criticism wouldn't have helped me; it would have crushed me. I think the writer has to have a realistic idea of how they deal with criticism, in all aspects of their life. If they tend to take it personally, they aren't ready, whether it's a first draft of a first novel or fifth draft of a tenth.

1) How many novels have you written?

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Completed? 9-10. Started? (25,000 words) 40~ (My early days)

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

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When I feel like I cannot choose a new path to better my writing.
And/or:
I'm experimenting/mimicking.

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

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At all times.

I'm lucky because I can step back critique my own writing. (Some mistakes here and there)
But for beginning writers or anyone in general, critiquing is always useful.

But it all depends on how people take it. Words are powerful, but we, as writers, need heavy shields.

1. 5, and one novella.
2. I seek critiques when I can't stand to read the thing anymore. And, strangely or not, my fiancé does not read what I write.
3. I would tell a new writer to ask for a critique either a) when it's as squeaky as they can make it, or b) if they're having difficulties that they need fresh eyes to help working out

lorna_w said:

So some questions for discussion:

1) How many novels have you written?

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

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1:
I've done a total of seven. But they're lost in the hands of a very obsessive kinsman of mine. So, that's that.

2:
Yes, critique differs depending on who I ask. More on that later.

3:
Thirdly, my advice to any new writer is:
Learn to understand the difference between Readers, Writers, Agents and their critiques.

Writers critique your writing best because they're writers. Not every writer makes a good reader, because when most of them are in the mindset to critique a lot of the time what you get is the product of their going "I certainly would write this differently."

Readers will tell you how your stuff reads. Readers, I mean real, straight-up readers who don't give two cents about the laws of writing because they don't write are going to tell you things about your story, how it read from A to B, plot holes, confusing parts, etc. They want well written pieces, yes, but they are not going to come at you with "I would do differently" nine times out of ten.

Agents from what I have seen are a mixture of both. But, they are invaluable for their marketing advice and connections in the writing industry. When you want to know how your book might sell, who would publish your work, and other 'down to business' things like that, consult an agent.

Keep these groups separate. My main reason for suggesting this is because the feedback you receive varies depending on the critter's background, as pointed out above. You need to know which group to bounce your WIP off of, and why you need their feedback. During the writing process you likely need advice from writers; during the finalizing of your WIP and it's polishing, you likely need advice from readers; when you're ready to consider selling, consult agents.

SYW is a mixture of all three. New writers need to beware this one fact. SYW is thick with writers, moderate with readers, and as for agents, I can't say I explicitly know of one who frequents the SYW forums. For this one reason, prepare to filter the things you may receive. But be magnanimous about it. Some critters actually have huge egos [SUB](or something like that)[/SUB] and will become mad at you for not displaying humility. And extreme humility at that [SUB](in some cases)[/SUB].

Know your kin. Networking and friendships, whether Online or RL are the most valuable things when it comes to writing and feedback. A person who knows you and your aim is far more preferable to a total stranger for the simple fact that they are not going to just tear you apart, they're going to rip you to shreds--but it won't be utterly discouraging. Friends build up friends; that's the bottom line to that. Keep your target intention and the corresponding group in mind:

Writers -> Writing - Do this first, especially because you're going to need it.
Readers -> Reading - Second, because you've just finished polishing your writing up.
"You hear that Mr. Anderson?... That is the sound of inevitability... It is the sound of your" rejection. <- Agents. Last. No exceptions.

lorna_w said:

:

1) How many novels have you written?

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

Thanks--look forward to an interesting discussion (and/or link me to another similar thread. I did a search but didn't see one.)

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1. I've written seven, not including a few partials, as well as one I'm starting over now and attempting to make better.

2. I prefer to ask for critique at least after I have finished the first draft. I asked for critique with my campus writing group twice on first draft material, and neither first draft has been completed. I don't think it's a coincidence. I have trouble investing all my time in something I already know is seriously flawed.

3. If I were to advise a new writer, I would tell them to wait until their project is done, or to get critiques on a few short stories before they venture into the realm of novels.

lorna_w said:

So some questions for discussion:

1) How many novels have you written?

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

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1. 32

2. I seek commentary when I believe I got the story in my head into words. I have two dedicated writer-betas and a dedicated reader-beta. Their only job is to tell me what story is actually on the page. Then I figure out if it's the same story and, if it's not, I go back and discuss things with them to see where I failed.

3. You are the only one who knows the story you're trying to tell. You're the only one who should be seeing the story until you're sure you've done the best you can to get it into words.

Be careful when choosing your beta readers. There is a tendency among overly-enthusiastic betas to correct your "mistakes" and to rewrite bits of your story to how they would prefer it to be. If you are friends with these betas, there's a strong inclination to ignore your story and make the changes to please them. It's your choice to do that, but when you do, it's no longer the story you were trying to tell.

I wait until the book is ready to rock and roll before asking anyone to take a look at it. A first draft is just that, a first draft. Things change in the other drafts, so to me it's a waste of time to have someone critique something that's not ready to be published.

lorna_w said:

I had a polite conversation over in SYW with Fabor about when to ask for critique and wanted to ask your good opinions.

My position was that it's not good to ask for critique early on in a draft of a novel. You should have the whole thing drafted, fiddle with it, then ask. My concern is especially with new writers who come here, have less fewer than 100 posts, probably are on their first novels, that they post the only chapter they've written and it's not very good and they are told so, and that's going to hurt them and maybe even stop them dead.

Others would say "well, good." Flannery O'Connor on if writing programs stifle writers comes to mind: "[It] doesn't stifle enough of them." or, "Tough, if you can't take rejection, it's the wrong business for you."

But I cringe for the tender young writer, the delicacy of the creative dream, and I wish they'd wait a bit.

So some questions for discussion:

1) How many novels have you written?

2) When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

Thanks--look forward to an interesting discussion (and/or link me to another similar thread. I did a search but didn't see one.)

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1) How many novels have you written?

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I've written two full-length science fiction novels, one 100k and the other 90k.

When do you ask for critique? (and does it differ from whom you are asking--you may show it to your spouse as it comes out for "attaboys!" but to your critique group only when it's drafted)

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I typically don't show people my stuff until after I've let the first draft stew a little. Yeah, I'll show a tiny piece to someone if I need a push or some help, and I have an uncle that I'll show a few chapters of whatever I've got to whenever he comes to visit. That's just because he's awesome, though.

Most generally, I think showing people my novel before it's done is like handing out wallet-sized ultrasound frames in place of a baby picture. Sure, it might seem cute to you, but to everyone else it looks like a shriveled-up alien squirrel. Wait until it's cute before you start sticking it in your Christmas cards.

3) If you were to advise a new writer, when would you tell him to ask for critique?

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Again, wait until it's cute. Plow your way through the first draft, let it stew for about two weeks, then go over it. Rinse, repeat. Do this about twice, and then show it off to people. By that point, you'll have a decent representation of your idea, and you can proceed with getting your plot/characters/immortal soul torn to pieces and patched up.

Then you can start on your rewrite

1) I've written 0 novels, but I've started probably a billion. No, I've maybe started ten or so. Some of them are WIPs -- most of them are trash.

2) Since I've never finished a novel, I'll mention that I usually don't let anyone read my short stories until I'm completely done and have edited it. I also usually let them stew for a while before deciding if I want others to read it. However, lately I've been seeing the merits of letting others read my half-finished novels because a) It generates excitement and keeps me going and b) I don't want people to think I'm a quitter, haha.

3) Honestly, I think that when just starting out, it's important for you to finish a piece first. Those first couple pieces have to be all you. Because if you pass off one of those early pieces and you're not done, an "I don't know about this" might be enough to dissuade you forever. But, if you've already finished and receive an "I don't know," you're probably more invested in the piece and are willing to go back and revise. If that makes sense...

1) Two finished. A couple of novellas, some shorts. All unpublished.

2) I usually ask for critiques (going with my experience with short stories here) after I've looked at it so much that I don't see any more errors. Doesn't mean they aren't there, it means that I'm tired of looking at it and with screwing with it.

3) This is the biggie. I'd say it depends. Sometimes it's good to get a set of eyes on a very rough, just to get general opinions. I like to be warned if that's what I'm looking at and I really like it if the author will tell me what it is they want specifically. Most of the time, when I beta for someone, I want to know that I'm looking at something they are ready to start receiving notes about. That they've gotten it as far as they can and now they need feedback.

I was given a novel to beta once. I made my notes and when I started discussing them with the writer I kept getting 'oh, I already fixed that. Oh, I took that out and reworded the entire scene. Oh, that fix is already done'.

After a while I got annoyed. Why was I betaing an earlier draft?

I haven't beta'd for them since. :/