Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by blacbird

I was offended by the trailer primarily because it looks bloody awful. I'll go rent Ishtar from Blockbuster before I see this atrocity.

caw

Ishtar wasn't that bad

[regdog]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't self-identifying as a witch a relatively recent phenomenon? The people accused of witchcraft and sub-sequentially burned to death and hung through European history were not Wiccan by a modern understanding. For all intents and purposes, wasn't "Witch" in the time of the original Hansel & Gretel a synonym for sorceress?

Etymology of Witch.

"Þe paynyms ... cleped þe iij kyngis Magos, þat is to seye wicchis."

It's kind of a kick-ass word. It seems to have perjorated and recovered at least twice, if one accepts the belief that it has roots in the Gothic word meaning "Holy." That would mean the word has changed meaning about like this:

Meaning Priestess, Gothic era => Meaning Magician, usually evil in Old English => Adjectival form meaning Beautiful around 1700 => Evil Again (Salem nonsense) => Meaning a type of modern pagan.

I haven't seen the movie and don't intend to. It made my Terrible Movie Senses twitch during previews. There's an innate absurdity to the idea of Hansel & Gretel as an action movie it that the makers just didn't have the understanding to see. This is the sort of movie I used to invent when making fun of other movies.

And while I'm stirring a bit of trouble to suggest that identifying as a witch is a recent phenomenon, it's been going on more than long enough for the makers of this movie to understand the new meaning of the word. There was really no excuse for this thing to get past the spec script phase.

The history of those who practice witchcraft and forms of spell magic, earth and goddess worship was never recorded but told verbally. In fact if it was considered disrespectful by the Druids to write it down. Important history was told.

Over the centuries words to describe practitioners of the craft have changed by interpretation. Heathen is of Germanic origin and refers to people of the heath, now it refers to those who do not practice, Christianity or a barbarian.

Wicca means to bend or change. In Middle High German wicken means to bewitch or divine the future.

Many wiccans do not practice witchcraft or refer to themselves as witches.

Back before the rise of the Christianity, Judaism and Islam most people practiced one form of Goddess/God in addition to honoring the change of seasons.

I think Witch is a kick ass word. A word of strength, honor and respect of not only my Goddesses but myself.

[SWest]

Originally Posted by regdog

The history of those who practice witchcraft and forms of spell magic, earth and goddess worship was never recorded but told verbally. In fact if it was considered disrespectful by the Druids to write it down. Important history was told.

Over the centuries words to describe practitioners of the craft have changed by interpretation. Heathen is of Germanic origin and refers to people of the heath, now it refers to those who do not practice, Christianity or a barbarian.

Wicca means to bend or change. In Middle High German wicken means to bewitch or divine the future.

Many wiccans do not practice witchcraft or refer to themselves as witches.

Back before the rise of the Christianity, Judaism and Islam most people practiced one form of Goddess/God in addition to honoring the change of seasons.

I think Witch is a kick ass word. A word of strength, honor and respect of not only my Goddesses but myself.

It seems to me that the ancients were very well aware that anything that can be written can be rewritten. Indeed, modern versions of the Bible are still being redacted, the meaning of passages radically altered from those previous. But if something is True, then it is alive in you. How to honor She Who Made All People Of Her One Body was a knowledge preserved inside one's head. And within a community of Holy ("set apart for higher-than-mundane usage") guardians.

As a Can't-Believer, I do not find any religious significance in practice. But rather a deep connection to the Factual origin of our species and the generations of women who have made this present moment possible.

Origins and evolution of words and their meanings cannot be separated from the origins and evolution of culture and politics.

Portrayals of the Woman In Black as diabolical instead of as She Who Stands And Survives Through The Night damage the estrogen-based psyche in a multitude of overt and subtle ways. And mislead our brothers.

The change in Her portrayal was intentional. The rewriting of Her stories so that her son/consort/husband kills Her and becomes ascendant was intentional. The politics of the military and religious oppression of the Goddess-based cultures around the Mediterranean has been fairly well established. (For those following along, see a good survey of the relevant issues here).

In a world where even modern feminist history is excluded from basic formal/written education, spoken words/conversations still matter.

[Foinah]

This is such a wonderful place! I love, love, LOVE the fact that we have members who are so eloquent and educated, and share this knowledge with those who would seek the light.

Excellent posts!

[quicklime]

Originally Posted by Rhoda Nightingale

Bad Pagan Stereotypes one.

Anyways, I agree with your post. The movie looks pretty bad, but I don't think anyone with sense nowadays believes real witches look anything like the depictions in the movie, anymore than they believe Hansel and Gretel were real people who hunted them with crossbows and *gag* American accents. .

I guess to me, I'm thinking nobody outside the more devoutly ignorant of religious fundamentalists (who you aren't gonna please anyway, what with your not praying to their One True God and all) would confuse "horror witches" with Wiccans. Maybe I give folks too much credit. That said, I do like scary witches...but I've never felt the need to start burning folks at the farmers market by the capital because I got them confused.


as for the movie, when I heard the basic premise and saw Renner in it I thought it could have been cool, and the first time I saw the commercial I thought "well, fuck that possibility."

[Spy_on_the_Inside]

Maybe 'i'm just not the sort to get angry easily, but all I saw it as was just another in the line of stupid movies with plots from writers who have just given up and producers who said "Hey, someone will watch it"

I just don't see it as the sort of thing to get angry about, espiecially since it's something that most likely, very few people will like.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by regdog

There are lots of great books out there that explain about being a witch and witchcraft. Llewellyn
has quite a few and A&E did a fantastic biography of the Witch. Periodically it airs on the Bio Channel. There is a DVD of ii too.





That's my big complaint. Society has no problem, almost welcomes, ugly, nasty portrayals of the Witch. We are the one religious group that is actively degraded and denigrated for popular entertainment.

HA!

What about us poor Leprechauns???

[Roxxsmom]

I think you are confusing the meaning of the word witch as it is understood by Wiccans and other practitioners of pagan religions and the "popular" meaning of the word (basically an evil wizard or sorceress like person from fairy tales, or possibly someone who consorts with demons or devils).

Yes, the fairy tale characterization of witches as old women who ride brooms and eat children comes from stereotypes that go way back, but I doubt that the show's producers are trying to portray the "bad witches" that the characters of Hansel and Gretel are killing as Wiccans or other pagans per say. I'd bet they don't even know that pagans exist in the modern world. They're just trying to cash in on the recent interest in shows that revisit classic fairy tale tropes in modernized settings. They probably don't have anything against stepmothers in general either, even though "evil stepmothers" are also a common trope in fairy tales.

Having said this, the movie looks incredibly dumb and bad to me. I also agree that pagans are a very marginalized group and are treated unfairly and mischaracterized by the media and by monotheistic religions. It would be nice if there was more understanding and tolerance for all forms of religious diversity in our society.

[katci13]

It's not the same thing. Witches and witchcraft date back thousands and thousands of years. The witches in Hansel and Gretel are not practicing witchcraft as a religion. Witches were a very common villain in fairy tales. Grab a random handful. There is a difference between that movie, witchcraft in general, and practicing it as a religion. And even among that, opinions vary. I had a Wiccan friend in college, but I know quite a few people who practice witchcraft and think Wicca is a joke. Hansel & Gretel isn't making fun of anyone's religion. (And fyi: LOTS of religions get poked at and degraded, sometimes people complain, sometimes they don't.) It's a movie based off of a fairy tale. If people aren't smart enough to know the difference between a stereotypical witch (Hocus Pocus or Harry Potter, anyone?) and a real one, then who cares? And what defines a real witch varies from person to person anyway.

Witchcraft isn't a religion to everyone who practices it. To some of my friends, it's just a way of life, like doing Yoga. Not trying to offend anyone, that's just the truth.

[regdog]

Witchcraft is a religion. A person call say they are a witch and not practice it as a religion, just as a person can say they are a Catholic and never once step in a church, say a Catholic prayer or receive any of the sacraments. But both are religions.

[quicklime]

Originally Posted by regdog

Witchcraft is a religion. A person call say they are a witch and not practice it as a religion, just as a person can say they are a Catholic and never once step in a church, say a Catholic prayer or receive any of the sacraments. But both are religions.

granted....but the point I was trying to make perhaps reflects on popular ignorance, or a lack thereof, depending on your stance. That said, I don't think most folks confuse "Wicked witches" with Wiccans any more than they confuse vampires with Catholics...

[regdog]

But it absolutely opens the door for us to be mocked and ridiculed. Fox news

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by regdog

But it absolutely opens the door for us to be mocked and ridiculed. Fox news

Oh. Wow.
That was ugly.

But it's Fox news. What did you expect?

[Foinah]

I started this on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/EndFoxNewsBigotryTowardsPagans

If it goes viral then we can show a living picture of modern pagans to the world. We are beautiful, happy people.

So no pics of anyone eating a baby. haha. (Sigh)

[regdog]

Rather pathetic apology by Tucker Carson. And would I have expected anything better from Fox? No, not really.

[flutecrafter]

Originally Posted by regdog

Witchcraft is a religion. A person call say they are a witch and not practice it as a religion, just as a person can say they are a Catholic and never once step in a church, say a Catholic prayer or receive any of the sacraments. But both are religions.

*cough*
Witchcraft is a tool set for accessing supernatural power apart from God.
Wicca is a religion, as are a myriad other religions that can utilize witchcraft
in some form or another.

the movie looks to be a dog though so wasting time and money to see it....
Naahh..

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by flutecrafter

*cough*
Witchcraft is a tool set for accessing supernatural power apart from God.
Wicca is a religion, as are a myriad other religions that can utilize witchcraft
in some form or another.

the movie looks to be a dog though so wasting time and money to see it....
Naahh..

Potaytow potahto Cackle™

[ECathers]

Originally Posted by flutecrafter

*cough*
Witchcraft is a tool set for accessing supernatural power apart from God.
Wicca is a religion, as are a myriad other religions that can utilize witchcraft
in some form or another.

the movie looks to be a dog though so wasting time and money to see it....
Naahh..

I'm confused. How is wicca/witchcraft apart from God? IMO "god/dess/all that" is an imperative part of our religion.

[gothicangel]

Originally Posted by regdog

The history of those who practice witchcraft and forms of spell magic, earth and goddess worship was never recorded but told verbally. In fact if it was considered disrespectful by the Druids to write it down. Important history was told.

Druids [and I mean the Iron Age variety] didn't write things down because they lived in a pre-literate society. Even after the Romans had been and gone from Scotland literacy was abandoned because it was associated with ill-omens [curse tablets etc.]

It was the Christian Church that brought permanent literacy to Britain - and the Ionian/Celtic church at that!

[ECathers]

Originally Posted by gothicangel

Druids [and I mean the Iron Age variety] didn't write things down because they lived in a pre-literate society. Even after the Romans had been and gone from Scotland literacy was abandoned because it was associated with ill-omens [curse tablets etc.]

It was the Christian Church that brought permanent literacy to Britain - and the Ionian/Celtic church at that!

Incorrect. They had the Ogham and later the runes as well.

Although they were mostly used for divination, they were also useful for sending messages, etc.

Just because the Druids didn't believe in writing things down, does not mean they were necessarily illiterate.

It was believed (among other things) that oral traditions/knowledge strengthen the mind.