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Linda Adams

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They choose to go that route because, like you, they've been led to believe that's what you're supposed to do. As a beginner writer, I thought that too. I thought paying markets would need to see a long list of publications before they'd consider you.

Either that, or they don't think they're good enough/ready for paying markets yet. In some cases, that's perfectly valid.

Very true. When I started writing for professional publication, that was a pretty common thing to see. Granted, I think it has its roots in a time when getting published period meant something more. Now, anyone can pay for a website and create an online magazine, so there isn't any quality control. Now professional writing organizations have to post names of magazines that qualify for membership, and they didn't have to do that before.

I did write for free in short stories for a while because I was trying to figure out where my writing fit. But I didn't realize that the short story market is extremely limited--the genres I later gravitated to were never available to me via short stories. I always ended up writing things that were outside what I preferrered.

But I stopped writing for free when I kept seeing magazines with the expectation that they didn't have to pay. I'd hit the guidleines and see things like, "We can't afford to pay you, but we'll post your bio and a link." Yet, they were charging for subscriptions. I also saw a lot of anthology calls where it was pretty clear that the "editor" was hoping to get all these manuscripts from writers for no cost and make lots of money off them. A lot of them make it sound like they're doing the writer a favor by publishing them, and that's a huge problem.
 

quicklime

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If this is so, why do so many choose to go that route?


1. newbie mistakes

2. bad information

3. they get tired of waiting to see their name in print so they go for an easy sub or sub stories all the way down until they're at a very low tier, instead of working to make the story worthy of the higher-end mags (personal instant gratification)


I pubbed my first story that way, because a few heavy hitters wanted nothing to do with it. Now I have it in a laughable webzine, under my real name (I intend to write under a pen) and to me at least it feels less than kosher to take the same story, spruce it, and try to re-sell it anyway. So other than a warm fuzzy feeling that lasted a week or two, until it was obvious I fucked up, tell me what I gained? Putting that in a query would either do nothing or actively hurt me, it isn't a credential for having gone there. I can't use it again. It's just gone.

"Low credits" count for the same or less than no credits. So, you've asked us why not to do it, besides that your friend said you should, can you tell me the rationale for pubbing in nobody-zines? Not being snarky, you seem to feel there is some underlying value proposition we're missing, and i'm guessing the assumption is flawed but without you addressing it maybe we're never going to through random guessing be able to address the topic or argument you are most interested in. Why WOULD you want to do this, in your mind?

Quick
 

jaksen

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I suppose there are good reasons for submitting to a non-paying market, but they don't work for me. I've never submitted to a non-paying magazine, ezine, anthology, etc., and I never intend to...

With one exception. I would so as part of a fund-raiser or charity.
 

Rhoda Nightingale

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My two cents:

I think this misconception by newbie writers might come from their perception of most of the rest of the working world: Any entry-level job is lower-paying and carries less prestige than the jobs of the people who have been there longer and have more experience. That's just how it works--you start on the bottom rung, and then "limb the ladder."

There is no ladder in the writing world. It's more like a slide, so it's best to start at the highest point.

/metaphors

Anyways, yes, it's better to start at the best possible venue and work your way down. I understand how it can be counterintuitive to do this though. At least this is the way I initially felt about it.
 

Kricket

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If this is so, why do so many choose to go that route?

This has been said before, but I agree that maybe 90% of the reason people choose to go that way is just to see their name and their work in print. It gives you the warm fuzzies.

Plus, I believe that the reason the notion is even around is because back in the day, before TV and before record players, people had to go out to be entertained. They had to go to plays or concerts, there was no way to bring that into peoples homes. But books and magazines, on the other hand, were easy to get and the #1 form of entertainment at home. So at that time, yeah, it might have worked well for a new writer to get published in some non-paying market. There was actual exposure because everyone read those lit mags.

But these days, we writers are competing against TV, movies and widely obtainable music. We have to work harder to grab people's attention and we should be paid for that hard work.

So as others have said, work hard, perfect your craft and story and make it worth a publishers money to publish.
 

quicklime

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well, Rhoda, I agree you should start high and work your way down.

I also think what you said about "working their way up" is semi-reasonable for writers--but I"m saying getting something into a semi-pro, before a pro magazine, and both before something like Esquire is a reasonable progression (although I'd still start by querying Cemetery Dance before I went to something paying 2 cents a word and with 1/3 the circulation, for example). the problem for the newbies you mentioned is learning where the "apprenticeship" or "low-pay" bar is.

There are some very prestigious zines that pay little or nothing. Those are perfectly fine to pub in, although also competetive, like the paying ones. There are also a sea of nobody-mags out there, dozens of no-tier websites that don't pay and honestly it reflects in most of the work posted. If you aren't ready for a 'zine with some recognition, you aren't ready--that's how it is. Make it ready, or work until something is.

starting by sending to no-name and no-pay 'zines isn't cutting your teeth or working your way up the way a newbie may believe it to be, on that I couldn't agree more-- actually, I think it is a little more like going out and picking up dogshit for free all summer and hoping it establishes you later as a frontrunner for a groundskeeper job--it isn't enough to really count as a qualification, and all you did was busted your ass all summer, for free.


sub where the name counts for something, above all else. But in general, these magazines do pay. And you're never better off pubbing in a place that nobody knows of than you are remaining unpubbed.
 
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happywritermom

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Never say never.
Much depends on what you write and what kind of writing career you are pursuing.
For instance, if I were an editor at a good-sized newspaper and you wanted to freelance or land a job with me, there is no way -- no way -- I would hire you without seeing some published clips. My legal butt would be on the line if I hired you and I would want to know that you are capable of interviewing, investigating, appropriately interpreting what you have researched and writing it up in layman's terms. To build that portfolio, you might have to write for a few low- or non-paying markets first. My first internship was for college credit. My second was for low pay. After that, I got hired at a pretty good starting salary for a journalist. My route was typical.
As for short stories, some stories are more appropriate for college-funded publications. They are more literary and a bit harder to access. Not stuff that I, personally, want to read, but there is a market for them and that market doesn't pay much. The magazines don't sell ads and they are funded by small university stipends and magazine sales. They often pay in copies.
Sometimes, writing for certain paying markets can hurt you. I would be turned off, for instance, by a writer who queried me with an article and her only experience was with SEO writing. I'd rather see that she wrote an excellent blog with 3,000 page views per month or that she was a regular contributor to some reputable website that didn't pay.
Book-length works are another story. Publication is your pay-off for years of work, not just a few hours. You should always be paid.

So while for the most part, you should get paid for writing, there are circumstances where no pay or little pay is appropriate. Use good judgment and only write for free or for little pay when there is a significant benefit to you or your career. But never, ever, ever, say never.
 

quicklime

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happy,

True, if you're looking to write nonfic--I assumed she was subbing stories, rather than articles or editorials. Know what they say about assuming....
 

RobJ

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Why is it good for new writers to persue non-paying publicatis vs. trying to earn money right away.
Because it's less competition for the rest of us.

But seriously, as a piece of general advice there's no value in it. Why did I submit my first x-many short stories to non-paying venues? Because I could. Because I thought it would be easier to get in. Because I wanted the buzz from someone taking my story. Because I wasn't writing for money. Because I wanted to test myself and see if I could get something accepted anywhere at all. Because my friends were doing it. Because some of them put it into print and I could have that on my bookshelf next to Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Because I didn't know any better. Because I was just learning and turning out stuff and didn't care where it ended up. Because it convinced my wife that I really was writing till 3 in the morning.

I could probably think of more reasons, but you get the idea.

I recall someone on another forum a few years ago who'd had maybe a hundred short stories accepted around the web, and tried to get into a respected organisation by claiming them as credits. Understandably, he got laughed at. It came as something of a surprise and a blow to him, but not before he'd embarrassed himself by arguing about it.

Do I regret sending my stuff to non-paying venues? Not at all. Because I was just learning and turning out stuff, and none of it means anything to me. People write for all kinds of reasons, and not everyone is doing it for money, and that's fine. But as a general piece of advice, there's no reason why new writers shouldn't aim for paying publications, and there's no reason why they should consider non-paying publications as necessary.
 

Anne Lyle

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I agree with quicklime, that a good semi-pro market is a reasonable entry-level for a new fiction writer - on the one hand you might be missing out on a sale to a pro market, but realistically, chances of your first story being good enough are slim. If you get lots of rejections from these markets you'll know you need to improve, but if you sell well, it gives you the confidence to try those big-name publications, as well as some reasonable credits to put in your cover letter.

Personally, I've never written for nothing, not even non-fiction. Sometimes the latter was no more than beer money, but even then it was for a free ezine, so it's not like anyone was trying to make money out of it at my expense.
 

Terie

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What if you had a story that was good enough to sell to a pro publication for a couple thousand dollars? What if you subbed it to a non-paying market first? Do you think that the non-paying market would decline it for being too good?

That's why you start at the top and work your way down.
 

AllyWoof

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Why did I submit my first x-many short stories to non-paying venues? Because I could. Because I thought it would be easier to get in. Because I wanted the buzz from someone taking my story. Because I wasn't writing for money. Because I wanted to test myself and see if I could get something accepted anywhere at all. Because my friends were doing it. Because some of them put it into print and I could have that on my bookshelf next to Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Because I didn't know any better. Because I was just learning and turning out stuff and didn't care where it ended up. Because it convinced my wife that I really was writing till 3 in the morning.
This sounds a bit like the answer to the question of why you started doing some bad habit you are now unable to quit. That said, I do understand everything you said here. I totally agree with all of you. There are certainly good and bad merits to any place you send out your writing. The key is to send it to the right location. And of cource, edit it so that the spelling and so forth is correct.
 
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