The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

It seems pretty obvious from this corner than PA is reeling. The fight's not over but they're bloody and bowed. At the very, very least, PA's profit picture for 2005 and beyond isn't going to be pretty compared to the previous two years.

I can see Willem and Larry making one last gra$p by trying to sell the business to some dupe, but I really think their 15 minutes is almost up.

I can not believe Clopper's reply! Yeah, let the man keep talking.

Honesty and integrity??? So much so that when asked a question on the message board, they put down the author and then ban them so that they can't respond back. Yeah, okay. I guess their definitions of honesty and intregrity run along the same lines as "traditional publisher".


Someone posted that they put a clause in the contract saying that the author must submit any subsequent ms's to them first. I thank God that isn't in my contract.

KellyS. said:

Someone posted that they put a clause in the contract saying that the author must submit any subsequent ms's to them first. I thank God that isn't in my contract.

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Yeah, the old contracts had that right of first refusal clause as well. My contract did. I had to negotiate with Miranda for my second book. They actually were willing to pay me an advance far exceeding a dollar and few other perks, but could not accomodate my demand for returnable books and released me. Later my attorney had the contract for my first book thrown out through his lawyer magick (I love that guy).

It occurs to me that I met all three of the PA big three last year. My impressions follow>

Larry Clopper: Larry was actually nice to me in person. He appeared a little shy, and had a sort of paranoid shifty-eye thing going on, but was polite. He was the only one of them that took the time to seek me out and say hi. He introduced me to his wife. His public speaking skills are awkward at best.

Willem Meiners: Willem avoided the heck out of me. He introduced himself to people standing next to me (one of either side) and ignored me. The man has a Nazi kind of vibe around him. I swear, I'm not making that up. He wraps himself in an air of superiority and invulnerability. At the end of the convention I went up to him and (as my momma taught me) thanked him for his hospitality (such as it was). He looked so uncomfortable, I loved it.

Miranda: Miranda and I had just come off our contract negotiations right before the the convention, so I was not surprised by her gruffness. During the booksigning event she came by and said hi to everybody (except me). I was next to A.B. Wallace and she was very warm to A.B. (who was charming), but barely aknowledged my presence. She looked like she was wrapped a little too tight and that she might go off any second. Luckily, I didn't know then what I know now. My encounter with Miranda was brief.

I thought some of you might be interested.

Disclaimer: Almost everytime I post about PA my inbox fills up with people telling me that because of my position at Behler I shouldn't publically talk about PA. Well, my opinions have always been my own and are no reflection on Behler. However, just to spare me the email influx, please be advised that a few weeks ago I resigned my position as Marketing Director for Behler for health reasons, specifically, a debilitating bout of bronchitis that lasted more than three months. I realized that I could not continue to work two full time jobs on top of my writing career and family obligations, so with much sorrow I gave up my Behler job. Don't worry they will continue to flourish without me. I have every confidence in them, in fact I just signed a contract with them for my next book. So, in a nutshell, my opinions have nothing whatsoever to do with anyone but me. Okay? thanks.

Diana

Realitychuck said:
"And if Clopper's way of acquiring manuscripts (i.e., buying them without reading them all) were standard, it would mean publishers would have signed contracts and paid advances before realizing the book wasn't good enough to be published. That's a pretty poor way of doing business, and would only work if you didn't depend on the reading public (i.e., nonauthors) for sales."

LOL, if what Clopper said was true, nobody would have gone to PublishAmerica. Everybody would be published by commerical publishers and PA would never have been able to come up with their scammy business.
Clopper is so full of crap.

Gratian Gasparri said:

Wouldn't surprise me. Seven year contracts, plus PA inserts a clause stating all future manuscripts must first be submitted to them. As long as you don't question the system, they will try and keep you locked into the system. In my experience, this is typical cult behavior.

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Fortunately, their contracts no longer have that odious clause. In all other respects, however, everything I see about the whole PA "experience" is definitely typical cult mentality.

Savannah Blue said:

No, no, no. Let the man speak. Let him speak loud and often. The more he speaks, the more stupid he and his vanity publishing company look.

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Hear, hear!:Cheers: Every time he opens his mouth, he digs the hole a little deeper.

Diana, so sorry to hear about your health problems. I trust you're on the mend and feeling much better.

Sometimes wanting something to be a certain way...

...in spite of how it really is, is a powerful thing - witness the below off the PA boards...

I've always thought that it would be great if PA would take returns, and if we, in turn, would agree to buy returns - at cost plus shipping, of course. This would eliminate long-term storing of books and get bookstores to order our books! After trying some numbers, I realized that's not an easy answer, either! If I got 100 stores to each buy 5 of my books, I would not be able to afford to buy them if they did not sell.

So it's more than just getting books into the stores, it's the whole marketing aspect. We can't do enough as individual authors. We'd need PA behind us 100% to market our books to all the top stores, get new released mentioned in Publisher's Weekly, distribute catalogs in each state of PA authors who live in that state, etc.

There has to be a solution to this. Bookstores have such a long-standing relationship with the primary top ten or so publishers, that it's difficult for PA and other new, smaller publishers to get their feet in the doors and get accepted as traditional publishers.

I'm behind whatever PA can do on their end.

If only Random House, etc. would get rid of their warehouses and be in the same boat as PA, that would help level the playing field!

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Man, I wish the lottery would give me the winning numbers before I buy my ticket, but that's not likely to happen. This author just doesn't get it - PA's marketing function is great, it's perfectly designed for its target audience - its own authors. They just don't want to see that, it's easier to try and pretend that PA is a real publisher and blame others for the problems. How sad.

Diana - great description of the New Three Stooges, you had guts to even attend the convention given your personal situation with PA. Kudos.

Frank - love your avatar, geez, how cool can one guy be?

Y'all wish me luck - we're (Dedra Grizzard, Deborah Ford, and I) unveiling our new show, "GRITS, Georgia, and Grizzard" at the Dahlonega Literary Festival this weekend. My stomach already feels sort of queasy and empty, probably very similiar to how you'd feel at a PA sponsored banquet...just think, PA could copyright a brand new diet plan. Start eating whatever you want, and after five minutes sound a fire alarm and evacuate the building - it could work!

Diana Hignutt said:

I was next to A.B. Wallace and she was very warm to A.B. (who was charming), but barely aknowledged my presence. Diana

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This is slightly off topic, but... you know A.B?? That's so cool. She's got a new book with LBF, well, not new, it came out last Oct., and she's a first class lady.

Sorry to hear you're not well, Diana. Hope you get better soon!

Matrix2

They borrowed it. Wasn't their line originally.

Movie from the mid-late 80s.

Actor's initials. C.S.

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in the Summer of 2006. Preview a copy at http://www.embiid.net.

I've always thought that it would be great if PA would take returns, and if we, in turn, would agree to buy returns - at cost plus shipping, of course. This would eliminate long-term storing of books and get bookstores to order our books!

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Well, there are a couple of other things that PA would have to do besides taking returns to get bookstores to order your books, my friend.

They'd have to be selective about what they published. They'd have to edit what they bought. They'd have to offer reasonable discounts through distributors. They'd have to put a reasonable cover price on your books. They'd have to start sending around a salesforce. They'd have to send copies to reviewers in advance of publication. Y'see?

It isn't just the no-returns policy ... with PA you get the whole package deal of no returns, high price, shoddy production, no marketing, and cruddy discount.

Though it is true: If every other publisher stopped trying to sell books to the public, PA would be on an even footing.

=============

Elsewhere, "cb" (suspected to be a PA executive posting on the PA boards) has claimed that John Wiley & Sons has gone to no-returns. Dee, can you comment on that?

(I know that they offer steeper discounts for books that are bought as non-returnable, but last I heard few bookstores took advantage of that option.)

cb

2/16/2005
15:42:29

RE: Down but not out


Message:
You are so right, Jennifer. And also last week I found out in my local Barnes and Nobel that another mainstream publisher, John Wiley and Sons, has joined the no return ranks.

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Down but not out

Diana Hignutt said:

Later my attorney had the contract for my first book thrown out through his lawyer magick (I love that guy).

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Does this mean your first book (Moonsword) will be published by another publisher now? Not really on topic, just asking as a fantasy fan. And can I read Empress of Clouds without reading Moonsword?

(snip of paragraphs about convention)

That sounds even worse than the accounts I've read about the Poetry.con conventions. I mean, at least they had food:
http://www.windpub.com/literary.scams/bigmoney.htm

Interestingly, the accounts don't mention armed guards. That should tell us something. Even Poetry.com doesn't think it needs armed guards at their conventions, and PA does!

Sher2, I'm feeling a lot better now, thanks.

Ed, I'm pretty gutsy. Thanks.

Chrsitine N, I only met A.B. that one time, but we had fun that afternoon. She is a very classy lady. Thanks.

Ann, Yes, a revised, expanded (and reedited) edition of my 2004 Spectrum Award nominated novel will be published this fall by Behler under the title Moonspell, Book 1 of the Moonsword Trilogy. All my books stand alone, so you can absolutely read Empress without reading the first book. Thanks for asking.

Diana

"Uh, okay, maybe Clopper remembers the incident but not the author's name, or something like that. Maybe he hasn't kept up with this thread, which would remind him of the name because Yarbrough's posting in it again."
__________________

And may my name resound long and loud through the halls of PA's cramped little townhouse. May my name bring curses to the lips of the big three and pink slips to anyone who mentions it.

Ride Purple Ride.

Diana

You are proof positive that there is life after PA. I'm sorry to hear that you are leaving Behler's staff, but glad to hear that you are still writing. Take care of yourself.

priceless1 said:

I do not believe that. Not for one stinkin' minute.

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Come on Lynn, you know this is true. Don't you guys ofer contracts on books you haven't read? I know all the big boys do, Clopper said so and it must be true. :faint:

I'm here all week.

Re: Kevin

And may my name resound long and loud through the halls of PA's cramped little townhouse. May my name bring curses to the lips of the big three and pink slips to anyone who mentions it.

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Kevin, you were before my time at PA, but it's nice to meet you now. You've got a wonderful sense of humor and it's good to have you here.

When Clopper talks about what other publishers do, he doesn't out-and-out lie, and many of his comments are true -- except he leaves out four important words: "Under certain rare conditions."

For instance: Clopper said many mainstream publishers similarly do not read the entire manuscript before making an offer of publication.

Really should read: Clopper said many mainstream publishers, under certain rare conditions, similarly do not read the entire manuscript before making an offer of publication.

When challenged, Clopper can easily point to someone like John Grisham or Stephen King. Publishers would be more than happy to make an offer without reading the manuscript. But that only applies to authors that are established best-sellers. If Travis Tea submits to them, no legitimate publisher is going to give an offer without reading the entire thing.

As is common with nearly all PA announcements, Clopper blurs the line between "one or two rare cases" and "standard practice." Once people understand the difference between the two, PA is sunk.

Love this thread title on the PA Board

Subject: Released - Like Lambs Sent to Their Slaughter

Isn't that how all PA books are released? Isn't that how all PA authors are thought of by PA?

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11691.htm

Hi, all! I've been lurking for a while now. I know some of you from other boards.

Apologies if I'm bringing up something said before.

Has anyone noticed that many of the authors on the PA boards have poor spelling, grammar and punctuation? It's a rather marked contrast between it and other writing-related boards, since in my experience most writers prefer to use correct grammar whenever possible, both to keep their skills up and as a measure of pride in their abilities.

That board made me feel sad for those writers. I'm still trying to get my novels published, but no matter how badly I want it, I'm more concerned with how many books the pubisher sells than how many authors they publish. I want to sell my books, not just get published.

realitychuck said:

When Clopper talks about what other publishers do, he doesn't out-and-out lie, and many of his comments are true -- except he leaves out four important words: "Under certain rare conditions."

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That's why we call PublishAmerica's advertising deceptive, false, and misleading.

It's true that people can break a leg when they go skiing. But you'd look closely at any resort where everyone breaks their leg, wouldn't you?

How many copies of average PublishAmerica title are printed? How many copies of his own book does the average PublishAmerica author buy himself?

Perhaps Larry doesn't like the term "vanity press" (although it's clear that's what he's running). Does he like the term "author mill" better?

Hah. What's more funny is someone actually thinks people peruse the PA online bookstore.

Kate StAmour said:

You are proof positive that there is life after PA. I'm sorry to hear that you are leaving Behler's staff, but glad to hear that you are still writing. Take care of yourself.

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Thanks, Kate. There is definitely life after PA. PA supporters just need to get their rights back or forget their books and move on. The industry doesn't hate PA writers, they hate PA.

I told this story on the Mindsight Board not too long ago, but here it is...

When I was meeting with the editors of Publishers Weekly in NY last summer they asked me where my 2004 Spectrum Award nominated novel was published. I lowered my head and said, "Publish America." The shame dripping from me was obvious.

One editor said, "Oh, we here at PW don't attach stigma to the authors, just the company."

"I still feel stigmatized," I replied.

To which he replied with a smile and upraised arms, "In the power invested in me by Publishers Weekly, I hereby absolve you of stigma."

Everyone at the meeting laughed and we moved on with our meeting.

Diana

realitychuck said:

Isn't that how all PA books are released? Isn't that how all PA authors are thought of by PA? http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11691.htm

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Oh good grief... of all the authors who could have been sucked into that possible PA angle, why did it have to be a fellow Canadian?

Selective Deception

What's more interesting than the disclaimer that Reality Chuck suggests is that frequently, one word could correct the impression. Of course, that would not be to PA's advantage…

realitychuck said:

When Clopper talks about what other publishers do, he doesn't out-and-out lie, and many of his comments are true -- except he leaves out four important words: "Under certain rare conditions."
For instance: Clopper said many mainstream publishers similarly do not read the entire manuscript before making an offer of publication.
Really should read: Clopper said many mainstream publishers, under certain rare conditions, similarly do not read the entire manuscript before making an offer of publication.
When challenged, Clopper can easily point to someone like John Grisham or Stephen King. Publishers would be more than happy to make an offer without reading the manuscript. But that only applies to authors that are established best-sellers. If Travis Tea submits to them, no legitimate publisher is going to give an offer without reading the entire thing.
As is common with nearly all PA announcements, Clopper blurs the line between "one or two rare cases" and "standard practice." Once people understand the difference between the two, PA is sunk.

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The problem here is that the word "unsolicited" doesn't appear. Clopper's logical claim is that sometimes publishers "simply do not read the entire manuscript before making an offer of publication." To be parallel to PA's own practices, though—that is, to have any value as a warrant for Clopper's desired conclusion—the following would have to be true:

Many mainstream publishers simply do not read an entire slush-pile manuscript before making an offer of publication.

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This, I'm afraid, is hogwash. Well, nastier words than that, but I'm trying to respect the virgin eyes of some potential readers… those who still believe that "traditional publisher" means anything at all.

I think I've just committed a serious cultural faux pas, though: I suggested using one word where four will do. I will now be ostracized by mainstream legal practice and forced to subsist to the end of my days as a fringe lawyer.