Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Lilybiz · Mar 1, 2007

Jennifer, I don't read much sci fi, but I enjoyed your eloquent review. I may have to read Wilson now.

I understand how you feel. Here's my take on this. There are so many great writers that their brilliance can intimidate you if you let it happen. I will never come close to what Margaret Atwood does (for example). She's a master. But as I develop my own style, I guarantee she will never come close to what I do, either.

Yeah, yeah, she may not want to, but that's beside the point.

You've got your voice. Wilson's got his. Being unique, being yourself, creating your own voice/style/brilliance on the page will make you shine.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 1, 2007

Yes, write the darned book anyway.

Now Wilson -- top talent, top of his game. But you can be certain of one thing: there exists a writer of whom Wilson says, "I can never be that good. I'll never be in his league."

You might try re-typing the first chapter of Spin to see exactly what he did and how he did it. Observe his technique.

It's the chess metaphor again: we may say of a Grand Master "I'll never be that good," but on a move-by-move basis we can understand each move.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 1, 2007

See also: Mikhail Tal and his hippopotamus story. It is illustrative.

allenparker · Mar 1, 2007

Historical Science Fiction Fantasy

Jim, in a historical sci-fi/fantsy novel, is point on accuracy of the history a requirement? Can the author take literary license and do so with the confidence that even those that know better will be okay with this?

Or is this a case where the writer mst write well enough for the readers to forget their knowledge and go with the story?

In other words, how accurate does the history have to be?

awp

James D. Macdonald · Mar 1, 2007

allenparker said:
In other words, how accurate does the history have to be?

As accurate as possible provided you're still able to tell your story.

Judg · Mar 1, 2007

Jennifer, you don't have to be the best. Superlatives are your enemy. I can think of probably a dozen writers that I'll never hold a candle to, and you guys could probably supply another 100. But I don't have to be the best to be happy. I'll do the best I can, and I've got enough ego to think I've got a good chance of getting published. I'm probably delusional, but I'll never know till I've tried, right?

So my goal is not to write as well as So-and-so, it's to write well enough to get a first novel published. And then to write something better. That will make me happy. And if I make some real money along the way, I'll be very happy.

allenparker · Mar 2, 2007

Agree with Judg

The trick is not to write as well as so and so. The trick is to write the best you can. to strain to glean every ounce of novelist emotion from your heart and then spill it over a page.

Incidently, you are the best writer in your novel. No other person can write your novel as good as you.

The best is relative. I am the best nudist humor writer in this place. (I am the only nudist humor writer.)

Taking relative stands may actually hurt your chances of growing as a writer. If you think it impossible to be as good as so and so, you may not strive to be that good. If you think you are the best, you may cuddle on your success and not grow.

Just be glad you are the writer you are, then strive to be better.

Now that I have called the kettle black, this little pot will go back to working on his novel.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 2, 2007

No novel is ever perfect. It's just the best you can make it at the time. Let other people tell you if they enjoyed it.

The other day I watched Hoodwinked on DVD. That's an animated re-telling of the Little Red Riding Hood story. Pretty good film.

What I did afterward was watch the special features, with the director's commentary. Particularly the deleted scenes and the extended scenes. What struck me was how many times the director said words to the effect of, "I loved this bit, but the point had already been made," or "I cut this for pace."

Lilybiz · Mar 2, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
No novel is ever perfect. It's just the best you can make it at the time. Let other people tell you if they enjoyed it.

A friend mentioned he enjoyed a piece I published in 2003. I thanked him, then re-read it. I would write it so differently today. I'm a different writer now, a better writer.

I wonder if Tom Robbins cringes when he reads his early stuff, or if Umberto Eco wishes he could take back an essay from his youth?

Pagey's_Girl · Mar 2, 2007

aertep said:
A friend mentioned he enjoyed a piece I published in 2003. I thanked him, then re-read it. I would write it so differently today. I'm a different writer now, a better writer.

I wonder if Tom Robbins cringes when he reads his early stuff, or if Umberto Eco wishes he could take back an essay from his youth?

I'm going through that now - I just started looking over a rather long tale I wrote about - oh crap, five years ago (yikes!) - which I thought was really good at the time. There are some really good parts in it, but yeah, it's pretty much a mess. But it's also interesting to see how the MC, who's my favorite out of all my characters, has changed for the better over the years. I didn't even realize how passive and damaged she was at first.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 2, 2007

You're learning, growing, and getting set to wrestle with stronger angels.

Also: I just posted this in another thread, but thought I'd put it here, too:

A scene is a unit that has a recognizable beginning, middle, and end.

The scene ends with a mini-climax that leaves the reader wanting to continue. The next scene usually has moved in time, space, or viewpoint.
__________________

allenparker · Mar 2, 2007

Dang that #*$% Jim!!

James D. Macdonald said:
A scene is a unit that has a recognizable beginning, middle, and end.

The scene ends with a mini-climax that leaves the reader wanting to continue. The next scene usually has moved in time, space, or viewpoint.
__________________

I find it interesting and sometimes frustrating that Jim seems to define things in one third of the discussion others use.

In order to reach this goal, I believe that I will stop talking when

awp

Meerkat · Mar 2, 2007

Uncle Jim, in another thread, you stated that "show, don't tell" is not a Procrustean Bed. Now that I've googled that happy term, and realize that it is not about seafood allergies, can you tell us of any standard that you believe would or should warrant Procrustean Bed rigidity in writing?

Sailor Kenshin · Mar 2, 2007

aertep said:
A friend mentioned he enjoyed a piece I published in 2003. I thanked him, then re-read it. I would write it so differently today. I'm a different writer now, a better writer.

I wonder if Tom Robbins cringes when he reads his early stuff, or if Umberto Eco wishes he could take back an essay from his youth?

Just about everyone does.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 2, 2007

gclare said:
...can you tell us of any standard that you believe would or should warrant Procrustean Bed rigidity in writing?

Not so much.

The only real rule is: If It Works, It's Right.

The thing you should never forget is that you are writing for your readers.

Beyond that, it's all art. There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays....

Meerkat · Mar 2, 2007

Scary. No crutch there... I mean thank you, for the answers. Even if they imply more work to be done!

Nangleator · Mar 2, 2007

gclare said:
...Even if they imply more work to be done!

Hey, what else were you going to do that day but write?

Pagey's_Girl · Mar 2, 2007

gclare said:
Scary. No crutch there... I mean thank you, for the answers. Even if they imply more work to be done!

Scary, but liberating, too...

I think I need to learn to not worry so much about what I "should" be writing and just write.

Raphee · Mar 2, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
Now Wilson -- top talent, top of his game. But you can be certain of one thing: there exists a writer of whom Wilson says, "I can never be that good. I'll never be in his league."

Well said. I'm always judging myself against authors I like and that makes me feel as if I just cannot write; at least the way I should be writing.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 4, 2007

Here's what I might suggest: Take a writer you admire and attempt to "channel" him or her. Pretend to be that person and have him or her write your book for you.

(Don't worry that it won't be your book -- no matter how talented a parodist you might be, the work is original.)

Now other stuff: Found in another thread here at AW, a piece of submission-tracker software. http://www.download.com/3000-20-10027591.html

It looks like it would mostly be useful for short stories, but still....

Now, how to do it by hand.

Get yourself a file folder for each of your stories.

In that file folder, put a hard-copy of your finished story. Put in an archive electronic copy of the finished story. Come up with a list of all the possible markets for the story, arranged in some order that pleases you (highest-to-lowest paying, most prestigious-to-not-so-prestigious, or something else). Print that out and put it in the folder.

Make a photocopy of that story. Send it to the top market on your list. Note the date on the hardcopy list. When/if you get a rejection, write in the date, cross out that address, and send out fresh photocopy that same day to the next market on your list.

Continue until either the story sells, or you reach the bottom of the list. If the story sells, put a copy of the contract in the file folder. Note on the top of the folder when the reprint rights will come back to you. If you see any reviews of the story, clip them and put them in the folder.

If you reach the bottom of the list, after you've crossed out the last address, put a date one year in the future on the top of the file folder, and put it your file drawer. One year on, re-read the story and see if you want to revise it and start sending it around again. See if new markets have opened.

Sailor Kenshin · Mar 4, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
Here's what I might suggest: Take a writer you admire and attempt to "channel" him or her. Pretend to be that person and have him or her write your book for you.

(Don't worry that it won't be your book -- no matter how talented a parodist you might be, the work is original.)

Now other stuff: Found in another thread here at AW, a piece of submission-tracker software. http://www.download.com/3000-20-10027591.html

It looks like it would mostly be useful for short stories, but still....

Now, how to do it by hand.

Get yourself a file folder for each of your stories.

In that file folder, put a hard-copy of your finished story. Put in an archive electronic copy of the finished story. Come up with a list of all the possible markets for the story, arranged in some order that pleases you (highest-to-lowest paying, most prestigious-to-not-so-prestigious, or something else). Print that out and put it in the folder.

Make a photocopy of that story. Send it to the top market on your list. Note the date on the hardcopy list. When/if you get a rejection, write in the date, cross out that address, and send out fresh photocopy that same day to the next market on your list.

Continue until either the story sells, or you reach the bottom of the list. If the story sells, put a copy of the contract in the file folder. Note on the top of the folder when the reprint rights will come back to you. If you see any reviews of the story, clip them and put them in the folder.

If you reach the bottom of the list, after you've crossed out the last address, put a date one year in the future on the top of the file folder, and put it your file drawer. One year on, re-read the story and see if you want to revise it and start sending it around again. See if new markets have opened.

So I'm not the only one who 'channels' another (better!) writer?

Ooo, I do that submission folder thingie, except I write the info directly on the folder, because pieces of paper can get lost.

Jennifer L · Mar 4, 2007

Homework, Part 2

So I did my next assignment (type a chapter of Wilson's book to deconstruct it) and I figured out that what I found so captivating about his work was a) the way he uses a telling detail, rather than a lengthy description and b) how he reveals emotion without saying what the character is feeling.

This was encouraging because I have never been much given to lush description in my fiction, and now, instead of feeling like I have to wrestle paragraphs of description out of my brain, I realize that I just need to focus on the telling detail, the one that captures the setting, the character, the mood. The rest can be up to the reader.

The other is a little harder. I mean, after dint of intense effort I've moved from "She felt sad" to "Tears welled in her eyes" but the next stage seems a lot harder, and significantly more prone to purple prose that misses the mark ("An arrow of pain stabbed her heart at his cruel words and mocking laughter.") (I'm really quite good at bad writing.) My task is to figure out how to communicate that she feels pain without poking her until she cries (or stabbing her with arrows of pain).

So, combining this homework with Uncle Jim's new suggestion, I'll write emotion like Wilson does until I've got it figured out. Or maybe forever; I guess it doesn't matter 'cause it'll be me no matter what.

Thanks for everyone's comments, especially about cultivating my unique voice. I don't want to be Wilson, after all; I want to be me, only better than before. (Does that make me the six-million-dollar writer?)

Jennifer Lawler

James D. Macdonald · Mar 4, 2007

You, only better than before, is everyone's goal.

limitedtimeauthor · Mar 4, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
Now, how to do it by hand.

Get yourself a file folder for each of your stories.

In that file folder, put a hard-copy of your finished story. Put in an archive electronic copy of the finished story. Come up with a list of all the possible markets for the story, arranged in some order that pleases you (highest-to-lowest paying, most prestigious-to-not-so-prestigious, or something else). Print that out and put it in the folder.

Make a photocopy of that story. Send it to the top market on your list. Note the date on the hardcopy list. When/if you get a rejection, write in the date, cross out that address, and send out fresh photocopy that same day to the next market on your list.

Continue until either the story sells, or you reach the bottom of the list. If the story sells, put a copy of the contract in the file folder. Note on the top of the folder when the reprint rights will come back to you. If you see any reviews of the story, clip them and put them in the folder.

If you reach the bottom of the list, after you've crossed out the last address, put a date one year in the future on the top of the file folder, and put it your file drawer. One year on, re-read the story and see if you want to revise it and start sending it around again. See if new markets have opened.

Ooh. This definitely appeals to my clerical side...

Thanks. That would work for articles too!

ltd.

Brenda Hill · Mar 5, 2007

Jennifer L said:
I'm a newbie to posting here (though a long time lurker) and I can't believe I just finished reading this entire thread. Even the arguments about "and then."

Jennifer, or anyone else, can you tell me where the discussion on 'and then' is located? I need a refresher.

When I first visited AW, I read page after page of Jim's thread about writing and have recommended them to several writers. Today, after reading several posts, I used the 'search' feature but must be doing something wrong as it didn't show results for 'and then' or even 'then.' But I know I'm not always using the features correctly as Jennifer's quote didn't show the right way.

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

glad to be here

Your Genial Uncle

Your Genial Uncle

Naked Futon Guy

Your Genial Uncle

DISENCHANTED coming soon

Naked Futon Guy

Your Genial Uncle

glad to be here

Still plays with dolls

Your Genial Uncle

Naked Futon Guy

Claims the loan was a gift

I am too on MSN IM! :(

Your Genial Uncle

Claims the loan was a gift

Rep Point Whore

Still plays with dolls

In debt to AW

Your Genial Uncle

I am too on MSN IM! :(

Your Genial Uncle

Super duper user

Diva in Training