Of Rapists and "Lad Mags."

Monkey

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My computer has eaten very long and in-depth opening posts on this THREE times, now, so, in frustration, the short-and-sweet version:

http://jezebel.com/5866602/can-you-...m_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=tuesdayAM

Researchers gave a group of men and women quotes from the British lad mags FHM, Loaded, Nuts and Zoo, as well as excerpts from interviews with actual convicted rapists originally published in the book The Rapist Files. The participants couldn't reliably identify which statements came from magazines and which from rapists [...]

Questions:

1) Anyone here have a more positive perspective on these mags?

2) Should there be some sort of awareness campaign about the misogynist, rape-y nature of these mags?
 

veinglory

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Rapists aren't convicted for what they say. I come down squarely on the freedom of expression side here.

I sometimes read these mags myself. Not everything in them interests me. But more of it does than in the average women's magazine that assumes I give a crap about baking or activities for children.

I also do not see material like the excerpts in them very often that I can recall. I wonder how many issues they had to go through to find them and what sections they got them from.
 
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Zoombie

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Rapists aren't convicted for what they say. I come down squarely on the freedom of expression side here.

Ayup!

...but we have the freedom (and I'd argue responsibility) to say, "Dude, not COOL!" when we hear or read objectionable stuff.
 

veinglory

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Indeed. I find magazines a bit annoying in general. But that includes the gal mags that say I am basically a failed and incomplete women for not having married and had kids (and not wanting to).
 

Monkey

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My experience has been to be highly disgusted with FHM the couple of times I was exposed to it. Misogyny and Bullshit, IMO. Not surprised at all by the quotes.

And yes, while they're free to say what they want... we're also free to teach our sons and daughters that misogyny sucks, and let people know just how objectionable quotes like the ones at the bottom of that page really are (and that they're published in these mags.)
 

ellio

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Rapists aren't convicted for what they say. I come down squarely on the freedom of expression side here.

IMO the article really isn't trying to suggest that lad mags and rape are in any way connected. It's not suggesting that because a rapist has said similar comments that readers/writers of lad mags are likely to also become rapists.

The point is that a dude convicted for raping a woman can probably be conceived as an (albeit unscientific) bar to rate misogyny and misogynistic statements against. So, magazine quotes ideally shouldn't be uneasily identified against quotes made by convicted rapists.

My opinion on freedom of expression is that you should be free to be a misogynistic ass in the privacy of your own social circles but maybe stop before you start posting sexist and borderline abusive comments in a magazine for profit. Nobody should legally be allowed to profit from misogynistic statements like that.
 

muravyets

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Freedom of speech cuts both ways. I agree that just as the magazines have the right to publish such material, so the rest of us have the right to call them out for it. To me, the point would be to raise consciousness, so that people who are not rapists don't become blind to the misogynistic attitudes in their adult entertainments that enable and empower rapists. People need to get some awareness of when they are being fed the language and assumptions of rape culture, and that doesn't happen if objectifying language is shrugged off as "free speech." Sure, they have the right to say it. And we have the right to point out how wrong it is to say it.
 
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benbradley

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My opinion on freedom of expression is that you should be free to be a misogynistic ass in the privacy of your own social circles but maybe stop before you start posting sexist and borderline abusive comments in a magazine for profit. Nobody should legally be allowed to profit from misogynistic statements like that.
I have to wonder about your last sentence.

Suppose the KKK puts out some sort of magazine or newsletter (I presume they do) saying the usual horrible things about nonwhites and non-Christians, calling them the usual names and saying how such people are ineligible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and whatnot. Maybe they sell it on a magazine stand (even if they have to put their own stand on the side of the road because no magazine stand will sell it). Should this be allowed?

I can't think how you would DISallow it, either these "rape-y" magazines or the KKK case. Perhaps if in an opinion column someone writes that readers should go out and commit certain crimes, that would be inciting a crime, but otherwise I don't see it.

Yet again, "Freedom of speech" (the US Constitution has the First Amendment, but I recall Great Britain also has some sort of speech protection) isn't needed to protect speech the vast majority likes and agrees with, so one has to ask oneself what sort of speech it's there to protect.
 

Roxxsmom

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Ayup!

...but we have the freedom (and I'd argue responsibility) to say, "Dude, not COOL!" when we hear or read objectionable stuff.

This.

I'll say I'm not sure what a "lad mag" is. Are they the British equivalent of magazines like Playboy or Penthouse, or are they something else?

I mean, magazines that feature scantily clad or naked women, pornographic fantasies that reduce women to sex objects, forums where men express deplorable views and all that are nothing new. And there have always been concern by feminists about the effects they have on male attitudes about women and rape. I'd say it's a legitimate concern, but aside from frank discussion and making it clear that these attitudes are deplorable, I'm not sure what can be done without compromising the free press. Freedom of the press means you have the right to publish horrific stuff if you can find a private venue willing to do so, or to start your own publication.

Even the KKK would be allowed to publish a magazine here in the US.

The limit, so far as I know, is for cases of libel, slander, overt threats, or anything that could be considered a plot or concrete plan to cause harm to someone or commit a crime. There are cases that can be considered harassment or intimidation as well, but that can become really sticky.

I believe from other discussions we've had on the forums here, that the UK has anti hate speech laws, while the US does not as such (or the threshold for such is much higher here), though workplaces and schools are supposed to be free of harassment and discrimination, and the government can impose sanctions if they are not.
 
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AVS

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Trawl through the quotes of any newspaper or magazine starting with a conclusion and content in mind, and you will find it. Trawl through the transcripts of criminals looking for something that is similar for the already found quotes from a magazine and newspaper and you will find it.

Dubious stuff artificially designed to prove a conclusion you already have. Very bad science indeed.

Disapprove of publication X by all means, but do it properly.
 

cornflake

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Roxx -

Like Maxim, not Penthouse.

My opinion on freedom of expression is that you should be free to be a misogynistic ass in the privacy of your own social circles but maybe stop before you start posting sexist and borderline abusive comments in a magazine for profit. Nobody should legally be allowed to profit from misogynistic statements like that.

:cry:

It's not freedom of expression.

It's that "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..."

In a general sense, wasn't this story old? I remember this from a while ago, because I thought it was stupid then and I think it's stupid now. How many people have used homicidal language?
 

seun

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When lads mags really took off (the mid 90s), they struck me as porn for 15 year olds who weren't old enough (or tall enough to reach the top shelf) to buy a copy of Big Jugs. Or porn for wanky 35 year olds still acting like they're 19. The little I've seen of them over the last fifteen years hasn't done much to change my mind.

As naff as they are, I've got a big problem with the snide, ugly and downright shit gossip magazines that analyse women's bodies and looks in a way that, if they were aimed at men, would lead to massive negative publicity. For some reason, they get away with with printing a picture of a famous woman's arse and gleefully pointing out her cellulite.

Zoo, Nuts, FHM etc are dated and cheesy at best. The gossip mags and certain women's mags are vile.
 

robjvargas

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LOG, that's a whole other discussion, and a good one to be had.

As for the OP, there are s many faults and flaws with the story, it's hard to tell where to begin.

I'll just pick a random one: There's no way to know the honesty of the statements used. The rapists were being interviewed. Do we really believe they were simply being objective and honest with the interviewer? Can we therefore trust the objectivity of the study? Nevermind the agenda of Jezebel itself.

LOG, that's a microcosm of the problem your article illustrates. Rightly or wrongly so. Feminism has become associated with an always-on confrontational stance against men.
 

ellio

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I'm from the UK so mentions of congress go straight over my head. We have laws that forbid racism or religious hatred so a KKK magazine would be illegal if it included their standard propaganda.
I see sexism as just as bad and as socially damaging as racism and stand by my opinion that people shouldn't be allowed to profit off of comments like that.
 

robjvargas

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Europe has a different legacy regarding speech. The USA is far more liberal when it comes to freedom of expression.

In the USA, one has to explicitly call for violence or be a direct initiator of it. You have to actually and seriously call for (for example) lynching the President, or yell "fire!" in a packed theater when there's no fire, in order to fall out from under 1st Amendment protections regarding speech/expression.

It's troublesome. If we believe in that concept of full freedom of expression, then we have to defend the KKK, the Aryan Nation, the American Nazi Party, and their newsletters, even as we expend our every effort to oppose what would be in those hate rags.

"I oppose what you say with every fiber of my being, and will defend to the death your right to say it."

Don't remember where that originated, but that's the American ideal of free speech.
 

Wilde_at_heart

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When lads mags really took off (the mid 90s), they struck me as porn for 15 year olds who weren't old enough (or tall enough to reach the top shelf) to buy a copy of Big Jugs. Or porn for wanky 35 year olds still acting like they're 19. The little I've seen of them over the last fifteen years hasn't done much to change my mind.

As naff as they are, I've got a big problem with the snide, ugly and downright shit gossip magazines that analyse women's bodies and looks in a way that, if they were aimed at men, would lead to massive negative publicity. For some reason, they get away with with printing a picture of a famous woman's arse and gleefully pointing out her cellulite.

Zoo, Nuts, FHM etc are dated and cheesy at best. The gossip mags and certain women's mags are vile.

I'd agree. Try to find a single 'women's mag' for instance without a 'lose twenty pounds by Christmas' cover headline. Anyone would become neurotic about their weight reading one of those things.
 

mirandashell

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And yet people keep buying them. That's the bit I don't get.

Always been my philosophy - Don't buy bollocks.
 

Monkey

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I agree that just as the magazines have the right to publish such material, so the rest of us have the right to call them out for it. To me, the point would be to raise consciousness, so that people who are not rapists don't become blind to the misogynistic attitudes in their adult entertainments that enable and empower rapists.

Snipped for brevity, but Mura wrote my thoughts much clearer than I did. This is what I was trying to say.