Oh, man, I can't believe I said THAT in a post!

kayleamay · Nov 29, 2009

My internal censor goes on vacation every once in awhile, but USUALLY things work out all right because I don't have particularly offensive thoughts in the first place. I've made a few regrettable posts and there are a few people that post here that make me shake my fists at the sky and yell explicatives, but most of the time I keep it to myself. Most of the time.

Ken · Nov 29, 2009

... swift kicks are sometimes needed, but so are swift hugs. It depends on the circumstances and the individual. For me, personally, I've always detested the heavy-handed approach. All I need is a supportive and encouraging environment and I thrive, and work my tail off to improve and repay the favor!

For others, such an environment will only make them lazy and prone to loaf off and wile away the time whittling wood or something of the sort. They need someone on their back telling them to get to task, and they thrive on that drill seargant approach.

Approaches must be customized to suit the individual.

Cassiopeia · Nov 29, 2009

We need to know our audience and know ourselves.

If we tell someone to fuck off in an effort to make a statement about them, we are actually making a statement about ourselves.

All we will find is that it caused offense and once having taken offense to someone, it is unlikely that the person will ever consider what we have to say again. Even when we have something of value and great importance to say.

And when we say such things, we need to remember, "the eyes of the world are upon us", while conversing on the internet so there is a higher probability in which what we say will offend more than the intended receiver and we now have the notoriety of influencing the ill opinion of those who watch from the side lines. Often people we respect and hope to gain their respect in return.

MacAllister · Nov 29, 2009

Weirdly, I get a lot of PM complaints about "this poster was just too harsh" and when I go and read the offending post, I don't find it harsh at all. It might be very direct, businesslike, and specific, but there's nothing harsh about imparting information as directly and specifically and clearly as possible -- but then people feel like you should have been friendlier about it, or you were too abrupt, or what have you. The complaining member just wanted the information delivered in a more soothing, hedged, and ego-stroking manner.

Well, that's not a problem with delivery.

I think it behooves us all to remember that we read--or misread--through our own filters and expectations, perhaps more often than we say something we regret later.

Cassiopeia · Nov 29, 2009

And this is the other side of the relationship. We, being human are predisposed with our own prejudice (filters as Mac accurately describes them) and we can misread.

This is the difficulty in the written mode of communicating our thoughts. There is no non-verbal body language or intonation from which we take our other cues to discern meaning.

So to that end, I think we have to remember when composing our thoughts just to take a minute, read it out loud, review what we said and see if without the advantages of face to face interaction, it says what we mean it to say.

There is of course, always that person who will take offense no matter how hard we try. There will be those viewing from a far and seeing something out of context misjudge us. These are things we can not avoid. Intentionally blasting someone however, is something we have control over.

Ken · Nov 29, 2009

MacAllister said:
Weirdly, I get a lot of PM complaints about "this poster was just too harsh" and when I go and read the offending post, I don't find it harsh at all.

... would be willing to bet that many of these complaints are from relatively new writers. It seems to be a common foible for new writers to have inflated egos and estimations of the worth of their works. I did myself when I was starting out, thinking I was going to be the next Dostoyevsky or the like, lol.

As their user titles suggests, they need to be treated gently just as small tree saplings do until they grow big and huge like their neighbors, and have nests within their branches with melodious birds

Mr Flibble · Nov 29, 2009

Thing is, way I see it, it's the difference between ( and I saw something like this in an SYW thread)

Your grammar is so bad you should give up writing

or

Your grammar needs a lot of work

The first is just rude, but the poster probably would say he was being blunt and realistic. The second is businesslike and blunt - and more helpful

Blunt can, quite easily, be rude and as writers we should be able to be constructive without being overly harsh or overly soppy. If you want to be blunt, that's fine, but your opinion isn't the only one in the conversation. Saying what you think without regard to other people isn't so much.

Or like this( one of my Mum's fave sayings, and how I eventually got her to stop)

I just say what I see, what's wrong with that?

Ah so you're a tactless old bag with no thought or empathy for anyone else's feelings? What? I'm just saying what I see?

Just because you think it, doesn't mean you have to post it. Having pride in being tactless and accusing others of thin skin because you can't control what you say just compounds the problem.

Manners maketh man, and best of all, they're free! ( even if I do forget that myself sometimes! We all have our off days...)

kayleamay · Nov 29, 2009

I've had more attacks on my character here on AW than I've ever had in real life, and I'm not particularly easy to offend. I think it's because the glimpses we get of each other here are so small, yet some assume that they are an entire picture.

If the people that really knew me took issue with me, I would worry. But, I'm learning not to be concerned with a few folks here taking issue with me, because for the most part they don't know me well enough to make an educated judgment call regarding my character. Grain of salt, I suppose.

Oh, and ignore is a beautiful thing.

Namaste.

ETA: And IRU's has an excellent point.

Wayne K · Nov 29, 2009

My mom used to say "If you have nothing good to say about someone, sit next to me."

NeuroFizz · Nov 29, 2009

I don't personally demean people and I don't tell them to F-off--maybe in specific circumstances that get to the heated exchange state, but certainly not in blanket opinion posts. And I make sure my aim is specified--those people who have a long list of WIPs in their signatures with abolutely nothing completed or even close to submission, and who complain (or brag about) how they juggle multiple projects all of the time. That doesn't stop people from getting upset about the "tone of the post" regardless of what is actually said. I firmly believe that if people don't finish their projects, they are not going to get anywhere in this business. How dare I use that tone in my posts? I must be an internet troll, an egotistical snob, or a fill-in-the-blank jerk. Never mind that the comments come from experience in the business and even more experience in a business where self-discipline is one of the most important and one of the most essential traits (independent research and its graduate training). Some of those who ignore the message and complain about the tone are doilie-dermis individuals who only want to hear writers' opinions about faerie wings, tulip filled alpine meadows, and how those pixie-ish muses just won't let them do this or that in their writing. In my opinion, these people need to be grabbed by the shoulders and given a nasty shaking. That said, I certainly don't come around here to pump my ego, and posting on my writing-related and training-related experiences doesn't have anything to do with ego. This isn't a kumbaya business, it's the most brutal what--have-you-done-lately kind of endeavor, so I'm not about to give the "there-there" head pats. And I did recognize the flavor of the thead in question and decided to stay out because even though the participants want to accomplish some mutual butt kicking, they want to do it wearing fuzzy slippers, which in my opinion, is about as drastic as trying to improve college study habits by having an Animal House style pillow fight.

And all you have to do is look upstream at one of the posts a few after my first one to see the kind of reaction I get, even though in this thread I DID consider the audience and avoided posting in the fuzzy-slipper thread.

Mr Flibble · Nov 29, 2009

FWIW Fizzywizz, I think you're generally blunt but constructive, which is cool.

Thing is, there will always be some who take offence, however you word it. Does that mean you ( generic you, not Fizzy you)should just write it how you want with no regard to anyone but your own opinion?

By that I don't mean change what you say, maybe only how you present it. You can be honest without being rude, blunt without being tactless

Cos what gives me the right to destroy someone else's confidence just because I can't be bothered to locate some tact? Nada. ( Or even, what gives me the right to tell someone else how to live their life? Nada. Suggest, maybe. Tell, no)

Because also, if you can't present your writing ( even in posts) well, or disregard your audience because you ( again generic you) can't be arsed to couch it in reasonable terms, you aren't going to get far either

As long as you think you've made that effort, then all's cool

Slushie · Nov 29, 2009

My biggest problem is sarcasm. It just doesn't translate over the internet and I sometimes wonder if people think I'm a snide jackass. Even the bluewinkyface doesn't help. But me being serious all the time has the chance of a candle's flame in a sealed jar.

I sometimes critique and post in SYW (lit'r'rie and contemp) and, even though I've only been here for a month or so, I've learned to err slightly on the side of gentle reinforcement unless I *know* the OP can handle my tough stuff. Too many people take hard criticism of their work as a personal slight and threads can turn ugly quick (even if they do the whole "I've got tough skin! Be honest!" routine).

Cassiopeia · Nov 29, 2009

NeuroFizz said:
I don't personally demean people and I don't tell them to F-off--maybe in specific circumstances that get to the heated exchange state, but certainly not in blanket opinion posts. And I make sure my aim is specified--those people who have a long list of WIPs in their signatures with abolutely nothing completed or even close to submission, and who complain (or brag about) how they juggle multiple projects all of the time. That doesn't stop people from getting upset about the "tone of the post" regardless of what is actually said. I firmly believe that if people don't finish their projects, they are not going to get anywhere in this business. How dare I use that tone in my posts? I must be an internet troll, an egotistical snob, or a fill-in-the-blank jerk. Never mind that the comments come from experience in the business and even more experience in a business where self-discipline is one of the most important and one of the most essential traits (independent research and its graduate training). Some of those who ignore the message and complain about the tone are doilie-dermis individuals who only want to hear writers' opinions about faerie wings, tulip filled alpine meadows, and how those pixie-ish muses just won't let them do this or that in their writing. In my opinion, these people need to be grabbed by the shoulders and given a nasty shaking. That said, I certainly don't come around here to pump my ego, and posting on my writing-related and training-related experiences doesn't have anything to do with ego. This isn't a kumbaya business, it's the most brutal what--have-you-done-lately kind of endeavor, so I'm not about to give the "there-there" head pats. And I did recognize the flavor of the thead in question and decided to stay out because even though the participants want to accomplish some mutual butt kicking, they want to do it wearing fuzzy slippers, which in my opinion, is about as drastic as trying to improve college study habits by having an Animal House style pillow fight.

And all you have to do is look upstream at one of the posts a few after my first one to see the kind of reaction I get, even though in this thread I DID consider the audience and avoided posting in the fuzzy-slipper thread.

I am quoting this in full because I think it bears reading twice.

I agree, I've never seen you intentionally demean another person, if they felt demeaned then there is a misunderstanding that can be resolved.

I agree, that people can't juggle multiple projects as a general rule and hope to finish a single WIP. I know from experience. I think it takes focus and discipline to force myself to stick to a project to see it through. Something you've helped me to learn how to do. But alas this is a derail.

I agree that some people do not want to hear anything but what makes them feel better. I know I would prefer warm fuzzy slippers to the cold hard wooden floors.

I had quoted you, only in that I was quoting SP so I wanted to link her quote to provide context.

I happen to know for a fact that you DO care about helping people and do your level best to articulate what you feel will help them and it is on rare occasion that I've seen you "get into it".

Back to our regularly schedule program.

Ken · Nov 29, 2009

... in any event, what is great about forums in general is that there are so many divergent opinions on everything. And I think that by comparing all those different opinions one arrives at a compromise of them all, which is fairly close to being accurate. All posts usually contain at least a kernel of truth and from all those kernels arrives a cob of truth. So if we walk away having learned something here or elsewhere we owe everyone thanks ... except for Dawno.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 29, 2009

NeuroFizz said:
How dare I use that tone in my posts? I must be an internet troll, an egotistical snob, or a fill-in-the-blank jerk. Never mind that the comments come from experience in the business and even more experience in a business where self-discipline is one of the most important and one of the most essential traits (independent research and its graduate training).

I want to point out, for those who don't know, that not only is NeuroPop a multiple published author, in fiction and in non-fiction, he's a professional teacher, with years and years of experience teaching.

And he's gentler than I am, frankly.

Part of the problem I run into, over and over again, is that I am telling people what they don't want to hear.

And, after twenty years experience writing on the 'net, I can also tell you that it doesn't matter how gently I couch it, or how many hesitation phrases I use.

This is a hazard of teaching too. But I have students come back, over and over, and tell me "I didn't appreciate what you were saying, but it made me think and you were right and I'm glad you said what you said, the way you said it."

There's a point where you need to be sharp to get someone's attention.

Devil Ledbetter · Nov 29, 2009

kayleamay said:
I've had more attacks on my character here on AW than I've ever had in real life, and I'm not particularly easy to offend. I think it's because the glimpses we get of each other here are so small, yet some assume that they are an entire picture.

If the people that really knew me took issue with me, I would worry. But, I'm learning not to be concerned with a few folks here taking issue with me, because for the most part they don't know me well enough to make an educated judgment call regarding my character. Grain of salt, I suppose.

QFT.

I'm not one to load my prose with fluffly pink qualifiers to pacify the easily offended. More and more I see people (on the internet and IRL) looking for things to take offense at because they find traction in a victim stance. No amount of qualifying is going to satisfy those folks who want to exist in an echo chamber where everyone bobs their head in supportive agreement at all times.

I'm waiting for society in general to catch on that feigned victimhood is a pernicious form of bullying.

There is a difference between "saying what you think without regard to other people" and completely hamstringing your replies for out of fear of repercussions from those who take anything but sparkling praise as a vicious personal attack.

I post maybe a quarter of the replies I compose.

And I do apologize when someone makes a reasonable case for being offended.

Cassiopeia · Nov 29, 2009

I agree that it's impossible to prevent those bent on being offended from doing so by how we word our posts.

However, I do try my best not to offend and I don't use their predisposition to take offense as an excuse for sloppiness in presenting myself. I'm made more and more aware each day to my own short comings and as a writer and a working professional, I have set standards of conduct for myself. So when I fall short, I can only get up and apologize.

Fizzy has behind the scenes been my personal cheering squad. I am indebted to him for the many posts that he makes that are to the point and inspiring.

Slushie · Nov 29, 2009

Devil Ledbetter said:
I'm not one to load my prose with fluffly pink qualifiers to pacify the easily offended. More and more I see people (on the internet and IRL) looking for things to take offense at because they find traction in a victim stance. No amount of qualifying is going to satisfy those folks who want to exist in an echo chamber where everyone bobs their head in supportive agreement at all times.

I'm convinced it's a form of an inferiority complex. If PersonA is uncertain of their position/self, then they'll take any contrary post as a slap in the face. This complex seems most obvious in SYW with the newer posters (y'know, the ones who come here, post an excerpt, then leave when they find out their words are not in fact made of gold). Not like I should really be standing on this soapbox; I'm new myself. Still, you (general) are gonna hafta try really really hard to personally offend me. Even a big ol' "Fuck off!" won't do it.

kayleamay · Nov 29, 2009

EyeSeaAll said:
Still, you (general) are gonna hafta try really really hard to personally offend me. Even a big ol' "Fuck off!" won't do it.

Oh! Oh! Can I try? I love a challenge.

Wayne K · Nov 29, 2009

kayleamay said:
Oh! Oh! Can I try? I love a challenge.

Ga'head Ga'head

Slushie · Nov 29, 2009

kayleamay said:
Oh! Oh! Can I try? I love a challenge.

*trembles*

Yes? I dunno. Just, please, please, don't hurt me. I was only bloviating...

*dammit, Spellcheck! bloviating is a word!

Mr Flibble · Nov 29, 2009

EyeSeaAll said:
*trembles*

Yes? I dunno. Just, please, please, don't hurt me. I was only bloviating...

*dammit, Spellcheck! bloviating is a word!

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries, you second hand donkeybottom biter you! Now go away before I taunt you a second time.

kayleamay · Nov 29, 2009

Wayne K said:
Ga'head Ga'head

That's not fair Wayne. You enjoy it too much.

Devil Ledbetter · Nov 29, 2009

EyeSeaAll said:
If PersonA is uncertain of their position/self, then they'll take any contrary post as a slap in the face.

Very true. The weaker someone's convictions or beliefs are, the more upset they get about any challenge.

I have not participated in SYW for a long time, but when I did I tried to keep my comments as constructive as possible. I think the only time I got snarky was when an obvious sock puppet was afoot.

Wayne K · Nov 29, 2009

EyeSeaAll said:
I'm convinced it's a form of an inferiority complex.

QFT.

Oh, man, I can't believe I said THAT in a post!

I'm on the phone.

Otherwise Occupied

'Twas but a dream of thee

Otherwise Occupied

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

I'm on the phone.

The grad students did it

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Custom User Title

Otherwise Occupied

Deleted member 42

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Otherwise Occupied

Custom User Title

I'm on the phone.

Custom User Title

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

I'm on the phone.

Come on you stranger, you legend,