Obama and Gay Soldiers

Sheryl Nantus

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"That's the current policy" doesn't work for me. Waterboarding detainees was the current policy when Obama took office too--and he managed ten minutes from his 'busy' schedule to take care of that problem.

and that whole stem-cell research thing.

it's not been all about the economy...
 

Kitty Pryde

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While I wish Obama would get rid of DADT, I agree he can do so easily and Congress would approve that new bill allowing gays to openly serve. I don't understand why Obama's delaying.

Regardless, Choi chose to come out on national TV. Even in William Haskins' link, the text includes: "...requires discharge of those who acknowledge they are gay." Choi knew this. He fell on his sword. Don't blame the military. Who knows why Choi chose to do what he did, push the issue of gays in the military? Dunno.

Nope, Choi came out publically (last year!) with a bunch of other West Point alums with an organization called Knights Out, to raise awareness and help get rid of DADT. It was entirely planned out and entirely a political protest. Part of their mission is to Be role models and leaders for LGBT soldiers living under Don't Ask, Don't Tell, by speaking out when they must be silent.


They aren't coming out just to 'take aggressive pride' in being gay. They're coming out because DADT hurts soldiers and their families and only by speaking out will change ever happen. Not all LGBT soldiers are able to make a bold move like that, so I'm glad that people like Choi can do so.
 

Cyia

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i'm not asking for choi to be reinstated. but it should serve as a public enough scenario for obama to initiate legislation. presidents can't repeal laws, but they damn well draft and push legislation.

there's no excuse.

Unless you're talking an Executive order, legislation has to be drafted and initiated by the Legislative branch; it's Congress' job, not the President's.
 

Don

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Legislation can be written anywhere, although it needs Congressional sponsorship to get a hearing in the system. Legislation is written lots of places, including the White House. as long as somebody's willing to put their name on it, what corporate lawyer saint writes it has no bearing.
 

Cyia

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Legislation can be written anywhere, although it needs Congressional sponsorship to get a hearing in the system. Legislation is written lots of places, including the White House. as long as somebody's willing to put their name on it, what corporate lawyer saint writes it has no bearing.

But the President can't introduce it as new legislation. That would be crossover from one branch to another.
 

rugcat

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"That's the current policy" doesn't work for me.
DADT is not just policy, it's law. When Choi came out on national TV and announced he was gay, the Army had no choice but to dismiss him. Choi knew this; that was his point and he's a brave man.

There would certainly be issues if Obama signed an order saying "do not enforce this law because I say so."

And there are plenty of conservatives in congress who will oppose the change -- enough so that it will take some time and effort to change this. Obama has affirmed that he wants the law changed -- but in terms of priorities, there's a lot of other things that need to be done which are competing with this. You can't do everything at once.

Keeping the nation from slipping into a depression. Getting troops out of Iraq, as Iraq grows more violent. Afghanistan, and the Taliban gains in nuclear armed Pakistan. A Supreme Court nominee, with Republicans are already vowing a pitched confirmation battle.

It's a terrible policy, and I'm hoping the pressure that's been applied by those like Lt. Choi will help bring the issue to the forefront and speed things up. But I don't see that this is further ammunition for the OIE crowd.
 

William Haskins

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the president can damn well publicly call on congress to draft legislation he advocates.
 

Snowstorm

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If you want out and say you're gay to get out, do you have to prove it, too?

What a goat rope. To his credit, our general denied the discharge. Scumbag pushed to the national gay support group (can't remember all the letters), they threatened a congressional hearing against me and the chain of command (oh, please, like an overworked first sergeant gives a dam). The legal beagles recommended he be discharged because of the law's wording. So the scumbag skipped out on his military contract.
 

James81

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with both houses of congress in his corner, obama could sign an executive order today that would effectively suspend DADT, while introducing repeal legislation.

it's called the bully pulpit.

the notion that he's "too busy" to do this is bullshit.

The notion that he's "too busy" just means that he was focues elsewhere. Now that this issue has been brought to light, maybe he'll be more apt to act on it.

I'm criticizing people for attacking him over something, that I'm about 90% certain he hasn't given more than 10 minutes of thought since he's been in office.

Let's see what his statement and response to THIS situation is before we hang him. That's all I'm saying.
 

robeiae

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But the President can't introduce it as new legislation. That would be crossover from one branch to another.
Right. That's why he has someone do that for him, be it Pelosi, Obey, or whomever.

Consider the Stimulus Bill. A few Congress-critters wrote it, based on proposals from the admin.

(Then the rest of them passed it without reading it, based on the advice of the admin)
 

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the notion that he's "too busy" to do this is bullshit.

ayup. that pretty much sums it up for me.

I admire the soldiers discussed in this thread for having the courage to step up and risk this sacrifice. And I admire Rep. Sestak RADM, USN (Retired) for stepping up to call for the action to rescind "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".*

I hope that their actions will serve as the tipping point for eliminating this ignorant policy.

*and yeah, it may be that Rep. Sestak is stepping up as a part of a planned run against Arlen Specter. Even so, it's the right thing to do.
 

James81

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Right. That's why he has someone do that for him, be it Pelosi, Obey, or whomever.

Consider the Stimulus Bill. A few Congress-critters wrote it, based on proposals from the admin.

(Then the rest of them passed it without reading it, based on the advice of the admin)

Which is exactly what will happen here.

He'll draft something up, it'll get tweaked or whatever, and a new policy will be handed down. I would be completely surprised if it doesn't happen.
 

Don

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i'm not asking for choi to be reinstated. but it should serve as a public enough scenario for obama to initiate legislation. presidents can't repeal laws, but they damn well draft and push legislation.

there's no excuse.

Unless you're talking an Executive order, legislation has to be drafted and initiated by the Legislative branch; it's Congress' job, not the President's.

Legislation can be written anywhere, although it needs Congressional sponsorship to get a hearing in the system. Legislation is written lots of places, including the White House. as long as somebody's willing to put their name on it, what corporate lawyer saint writes it has no bearing.

But the President can't introduce it as new legislation. That would be crossover from one branch to another.
No, but he could certainly "damn well draft and push legislation," as William so succinctly put it. There are any number of Senators and Representatives who would be flattered to be asked to claim as their own anything written in the White House.
 
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Snowstorm

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Nope, Choi came out publically (last year!) with a bunch of other West Point alums with an organization called Knights Out, to raise awareness and help get rid of DADT. It was entirely planned out and entirely a political protest. Part of their mission is to Be role models and leaders for LGBT soldiers living under Don't Ask, Don't Tell, by speaking out when they must be silent.

They aren't coming out just to 'take aggressive pride' in being gay. They're coming out because DADT hurts soldiers and their families and only by speaking out will change ever happen. Not all LGBT soldiers are able to make a bold move like that, so I'm glad that people like Choi can do so.

Choi was a military officer, and he knew the rules/regs. His mission should have been a LEADER to his troop. You say this was a planned protest. He chose to be a political activist, then his discharge was not a surprise.
 

Don

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Choi was a military officer, and he knew the rules/regs. His mission should have been a LEADER to his troop. You say this was a planned protest. He chose to be a political activist, then his discharge was not a surprise.
Damn that pesky Rosa Parks, too, while we're at it. :rolleyes:
 

Gary

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The conduct of military members is defined in the UCMJ and the UCMJ is written by Congress, not the executive branch. DADT is a good program and not difficult for service members to live with.

There are lots of policies in the armed services that seem unfair, silly, or confusing to some folks, but the military is not like a civilian job and the rules must be different for the good of the service. Feelings don't matter...success does.

Homosexuals have served honorably in all branches of the military and will continue to serve, no matter what type of policy is in effect. One of the best officers I knew in my 24 year career was a lesbian. Everyone knew, but nobody asked and she never told, so an issue was avoided and the Air Force was better for it. As noted in another post, the number of lesbian service members is a far higher percentage than in the general population, and it's not a problem with those of us who are male and straight.
 

mscelina

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Choi was a military officer, and he knew the rules/regs. His mission should have been a LEADER to his troop. You say this was a planned protest. He chose to be a political activist, then his discharge was not a surprise.

Yes, and the government responded exactly as he expected them to, which brought the issue into the public spotlight (as is evidenced by this thread) and then initiated conversations about the topic and speculation about what the administration and the Congress will do about the situation. I'd agree that the discharge is not a surprise.

However, let's look at this honestly. This was a test--a test of Obama's intentions regarding gay rights during his administration. Choi has forced the issue for the President. Now, how will he respond? So far, he's not responding. Choi's record appears to be outstanding, so why was he discharged? Because of DADT.

So now the ball is in Obama's court. It would be a simple matter for the POTUS to intervene in this single situation, to say "Hold on a little bit. I want to review the situation." It would be simple to get a coalition of members of Congress to draft legislation that would eliminate DADT.

But it's easier still to ignore it. Just like a conservative would ignore it for fear of alienating the firebreathing right-wing base.
 

Williebee

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His mission should have been a LEADER to his troop.
sic

And from all accounts seen thus far, he was, and is. Looks like now he'll be leading different troops. I wish him success.

but the military is not like a civilian job and the rules must be different for the good of the service.

I've never seen it satisfactorily explained how DADT, or any other policy discriminating against gays was, in fact, good for the service, let alone "for the good of the service."
 

SPMiller

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I don't understand why Obama wouldn't have at least submitted a bill to committee. What I don't know is:

- Have any such bills been introduced?
- Which committee handles such things?
- Has the committee in question allowed the bill(s) to stagnate?
 

William Haskins

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a bill was written during the last congress and has not been reintroduced since they reconvened in january.

he could make a statement today that would re-energize the process. instead, while bemoaning the unemployment rate, he's allowing a man who is, by all accounts, a good soldier to lose his job.

ironic.
 

Kitty Pryde

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The conduct of military members is defined in the UCMJ and the UCMJ is written by Congress, not the executive branch. DADT is a good program and not difficult for service members to live with.


Really? It's good and easy to live with? It's good and easy for a female soldier who supports her family to have no health insurance coverage for her kids, because her wife gave birth to them and she isn't allowed to tell the military about them or adopt them officially (real example, saw it in a documentary)?

It's good and easy for all the soldiers to meet their girlfriends and boyfriends and husbands and wives as soon as they get back from Iraq in one joyous celebration of not getting blown up, except for the one queer guy whose boyfriend isn't allowed to show up to greet him with kisses and hugs and flowers (real example, my best friend's roommate and his soldier boyfriend)?

It's good and easy that a female soldier with a stateside desk job can get no medical coverage for her aging partner with multiple health problems and disabling conditions, nor can she even introduce her to her coworkers and supervisors, but rather must keep her at home like a secret (real example, my friend's sister and her soldier spouse)?

The strain of being a closeted lesbian cadet at West Point made my high school best friend suicidal, to the point that she was put on suicide watch and was not permitted to lock her door at night so her superiors could come in and check on her. This happened during a period of time that an unknown masked man was coming into female cadet's rooms and molesting them at night. This is good, and also easy to live with?

And it's good because...straight guys are afraid of gay guys? more afraid of gay guys than of armed soldiers being paid to shoot at them? I don't even know that that makes any sense.

I guess the gist of what I'm saying here is that I very strongly disagree with your assertion.
 
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SPMiller

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Considering what we know about certain Congressional leaders trying to dodge punishment for supporting torture, could it be possible that they have indicated to the White House they're more interested in CYA than anything else?
 

nighttimer

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Ho-hum. Another day, another Obama smackdown. :sleepy:

Is the president supposed to micromanage EVERY facet of the government and when he doesn't he's going to be blamed for it?

I guess I should be glad nobody's started a thread about something really important like the president ordering a cheeseburger and asking for mustard, no ketchup.

Aaaaaannd now...back to "Really Trivial Pursuits." :e2hammer:
 

William Haskins

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if it wasn't important, why did he campaign on it? i have no issue with him taking no action on issues he never spoke of.