Purgatory's Pit of Doom

ink wench · Mar 7, 2011

SteveCordero said:
They need a query enema.

EDIT: And, speaking of which, I got a R by one of those agents I was referring to. LOL

I love the phrase query enema. (((Steve)))

SteveCordero said:
Kell, I get that feeling about my stuff as well, LOL. If the agent hates the pages then I find comfort in that. It seems silly to me that agents reject or request something solely based on a query.

Gonna disagree slightly here. I buy books based on concept, which is essentially what a query is selling. If the concept doesn't grab me, I don't care how fabulous the voice or writing is. So I get that. I do think it makes the most sense for agents to ask for a query plus pages because then if the concept grabs, they can get a glimpse of the writing without needing to request. But eh, I totally get the concept first thing.

PrincessofPersia said:
Got my first rejection today. Huzzah.

(((Princess))) But go with the RQs!

So... realized I've reached the 3 month mark on one of my fulls. Said agent has responded to fulls she's requested after mine, and according to her QT stats, she almost always responds within a month. I'm so far out of her typical pattern that I'm wondering if she never received mine. Ugh. I hate nudging.

soulcascade · Mar 7, 2011

Gah, Ink sounds like she's sitting on your MS and pondering.

Crap. That seems to happen to you a lot

OL · Mar 7, 2011

SteveCordero said:
I have different experience with the bolded.

I'm been in the situation where I got a reject on a full and then queried them again when they said they were interested in other work. Even though the agents in question may only want a query (no pages) I attatched the first 10 pages/1st chapter.

I simply wrote it as: "For your convenience, below is the first 10 pages."

That way if the agent doesn't like the pages she won't be wasting your time and hers. And, yes, the agents have asked for more pages after that. So you're selling it as making it easier for the agent since you already have a connection with her.

Popping for a moment here. Sending pages is a good idea. Attaching them is not. NB recommended pasting in the first five pages in the body of your email. A lot of agents will auto-reject anything with an attachment.

SteveCordero · Mar 7, 2011

Other Lisa said:
Popping for a moment here. Sending pages is a good idea. Attaching them is not. NB recommended pasting in the first five pages in the body of your email. A lot of agents will auto-reject anything with an attachment.

Agree 100%, Lisa.

I was referring to pasting the pages into the email. I never attach any unless the requirements specifically say so. I corrected my post above. My bad.

SteveCordero · Mar 7, 2011

ink wench said:
Gonna disagree slightly here. I buy books based on concept, which is essentially what a query is selling. If the concept doesn't grab me, I don't care how fabulous the voice or writing is. So I get that. I do think it makes the most sense for agents to ask for a query plus pages because then if the concept grabs, they can get a glimpse of the writing without needing to request. But eh, I totally get the concept first thing.

Not really a disagreement here Ink because I agree with you.

I would include concept into what I referring to as "category requirements" (genre, book length, etc.) for the query.

PrincessofPersia · Mar 7, 2011

I just assumed by attached you meant in a physical query, lol. I didn't even think that someone would just attach a file to a stranger or quasi-stranger.

ink wench · Mar 7, 2011

SteveCordero said:
Not really a disagreement here Ink because I agree with you.

I would include concept into what I referring to as "category requirements" (genre, book length, etc.) for the query.

Ah... I'm thinking of concept as a bit more specific. E.g., an agent reps paranormal romance, but there's no reason to think my paranormal romance is going to be her cuppa. Just because she likes the genre, doesn't mean she likes my specific idea (concept).

PrincessofPersia · Mar 7, 2011

ink wench said:
Ah... I'm thinking of concept as a bit more specific. E.g., an agent reps paranormal romance, but there's no reason to think my paranormal romance is going to be her cuppa. Just because she likes the genre, doesn't mean she likes my specific idea (concept).

That's true, but I've read concepts or summaries of books and movies that I thought I would hate, but then ended up loving. I think agents should take at least 5-10 pages with a query just for those situations.

soulcascade · Mar 7, 2011

It's such a toss up, isn't it? I can see what Ink's saying and I think it's a valid point, but I agree with Princess. I have my favorite genre like a lot of others, but I've also fallen head over heals for books/movies that I wouldn't have glanced at twice if I'd just considered them on the concept alone.

That said, I get the agent's POV too. They get SO MANY QUERIES, I can't imagine having to add sample pages to read through on top of that quagmire

kellion92 · Mar 7, 2011

I agree that query plus pages makes sense -- they need to be intrigued by the concept and like the voice/style. Some people have fantastic concepts but can't pull it off, and a lot of books sound similar (including many big deals on PM) until you get into the pages, where many of them distinguish themselves with excellent writing, character, and voice.

I had always figured that I had a quieter concept that worked because of my execution, but it turns out that I do worse sending query plus pages than just query, so there goes that theory. *eyeroll here*

SteveCordero · Mar 7, 2011

ink wench said:
Ah... I'm thinking of concept as a bit more specific. E.g., an agent reps paranormal romance, but there's no reason to think my paranormal romance is going to be her cuppa. Just because she likes the genre, doesn't mean she likes my specific idea (concept).

Yeah, there is a distinction between concept and genre, but we can slice the concept down to it's bare essentials. It could be the right genre but not an intriguing concept. Also, the concept may be so intriguing that agent may request pages even if the genre is not something she reps.

clare · Mar 7, 2011

I need some advice, and after receiving two rejections this morning, I think this may be the best place to get it.

I am querying a MG novel- contemporary fantasy. A small group of kids from around the world learn how to do magic with string figures (think cat's cradle) and get into trouble with the "bad" string magicians. The MC is a 12 year old Navajo Boy named Jacob Benally. Cyia just commented on my thread in Children's SYW to warn me against using Jacob for a Native American character, especially Jacob B. I did't know why, so I googled "Jacob B" the first suggestion in the drop-down list was Jacob Black, so I hit it. And found out that the Jacob of "Team Jacob" Twilight fame is a Native American. I read a lot of YA, but I'm not into paranormal, and Twilight never interested me. I think Cyia is right and I will have to rename Jacob (which would mean renaming the book too), but I've already sent out 25 queries (and recieved 14 rejections).
So, what do you think? Is it no big deal? Do you think some agents read my query and thought, "a Native American boy named Jacob? Form rejection." And if I do rename the MC and the book, could I re-query after a few months?
I recently rewrote my first chapter and I was so excited about it I sent five queries last Friday. One of those has already rejected- I feel like writing him to ask if the name had anything to do with it.

soulcascade · Mar 7, 2011

Hey Clare

My 2 cents

1) Yes. I think it would be helpful to rename your character and your book. The name Jacob B is just too 'out there' right now. It'd be like naming a character Harriet Potter or something - the first thing an agent is going to think is 'knock off' and want to move on.

2) I wouldn't re-query those agents you've already queried unless you RADICALLY changed the plot...to the point where the concept itself has changed (I'm talking a major overhaul here, not just re-writing the first chapter or so). I'm thinking if an agent were interested in the concept, they would've asked to see some pages regardless of the character's name.

3) I wouldn't bother e-mailing that agent to ask why they rejected your query. They probably have forgotten already. That said, if you're hell bent on it the worst you're going to get is stone cold silence.

Hope that helped

SteveCordero · Mar 7, 2011

Clare, I don't believe agents would reject you simply because of a name or the fact that it fits in with another well known character.

That said, there is no need to add extra angst to this endeavor. As such, I would change the name to put your mind at ease.

Changing names isn't hard to do and it doesn't change your story.

From the query perspective of the 25 sent out, I say don't sweat it. Twenty-five isn't alot in query-verse. Do you want to let those go? So be it. If not, just wait till you get a request and submit the pages with the name changed. I wouldn't even mention it.

Heck, I would even correct the query I sent them (some agents request the query be re-sent with the sample pages). They won't know.

That's just one person's advice. This issue is obviously worrying you and the only way to resolve it IMO is to change the name.

kellion92 · Mar 7, 2011

I wouldn't worry too much, Clare -- your book is nothing like that one. If the name is bothering you, change it. Agents wouldn't reject for that reason -- it might not even register unless they're hardcore Twilight fans (I didn't pick it up). It might get changed but I doubt that MG readers in two or three years would get the reference -- too young.

Leigh.Lyons · Mar 7, 2011

SteveCordero said:
Mornin' Pit

Preemptive {{{Ink}}}

Kell, I'm in the same boat on queries. I've pretty much stopped because I have a bunch out and they majority are responders. So I think agents are backed up. They need a query enema.

EDIT: And, speaking of which, I got a R by one of those agents I was referring to. LOL

Ask and you shall receive, Steve?

PrincessofPersia · Mar 7, 2011

kellion92 said:
I wouldn't worry too much, Clare -- your book is nothing like that one. If the name is bothering you, change it. Agents wouldn't reject for that reason -- it might not even register unless they're hardcore Twilight fans (I didn't pick it up). It might get changed but I doubt that MG readers in two or three years would get the reference -- too young.

I didn't get the reference either. I'd say you're okay.

Leigh.Lyons · Mar 7, 2011

clare said:
I need some advice, and after receiving two rejections this morning, I think this may be the best place to get it.

I am querying a MG novel- contemporary fantasy. A small group of kids from around the world learn how to do magic with string figures (think cat's cradle) and get into trouble with the "bad" string magicians. The MC is a 12 year old Navajo Boy named Jacob Benally. Cyia just commented on my thread in Children's SYW to warn me against using Jacob for a Native American character, especially Jacob B. I did't know why, so I googled "Jacob B" the first suggestion in the drop-down list was Jacob Black, so I hit it. And found out that the Jacob of "Team Jacob" Twilight fame is a Native American. I read a lot of YA, but I'm not into paranormal, and Twilight never interested me. I think Cyia is right and I will have to rename Jacob (which would mean renaming the book too), but I've already sent out 25 queries (and recieved 14 rejections).
So, what do you think? Is it no big deal? Do you think some agents read my query and thought, "a Native American boy named Jacob? Form rejection." And if I do rename the MC and the book, could I re-query after a few months?
I recently rewrote my first chapter and I was so excited about it I sent five queries last Friday. One of those has already rejected- I feel like writing him to ask if the name had anything to do with it.

I'd write them off as a loss and move on down your list with a new name and title.

Leigh.Lyons · Mar 7, 2011

kellion92 said:
I wouldn't worry too much, Clare -- your book is nothing like that one. If the name is bothering you, change it. Agents wouldn't reject for that reason -- it might not even register unless they're hardcore Twilight fans (I didn't pick it up). It might get changed but I doubt that MG readers in two or three years would get the reference -- too young.

Here's the thing, I haven't read the books (I think I saw a movie) but even as she said Jacob Benally, it hit my mind as "Jacob B." kinds might actually know who he and tw1l1ght are because, sure, the books are YA, but when I was a kid, I read anything I could get my hands on, usually the books my mom and older siblings left laying around. Odds are, a good number of young readers have head them.

My mom's 5th grade girls have all read and OMG LUVV!! The Tw1l1ght books. These are 10-year-olds. (I can rant about how bad the T books are, but I won't :rant:

)

clare · Mar 7, 2011

Thanks, everybody, for the advice. A "middle way" was suggested--changing Jacob's Last name to something not "B". Would that help enough?

Leigh.Lyons · Mar 7, 2011

clare said:
Thanks, everybody, for the advice. A "middle way" was suggested--changing Jacob's Last name to something not "B". Would that help enough?

Maybe keep the last name but change the first? Or are you married to "Jacob"? There's a site I love for picking names called fakenamegenerator.com there is also babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com. I'm fond of babynamesworld because of the search function. There are so many options for how to search for a name it's ridiculous!

kellion92 · Mar 7, 2011

Clare, I don't know if changing the last name is enough, but I didn't have a strong association with the name Jacob. In the version of the query I read, you didn't mention his ethnic background, did you?

Cricket18 · Mar 7, 2011

kellion92 said:
A lot of the agents that sound so perfect -- are asking for a book just like what you have -- pass, and right now I'm consoling myself with the weak tea of being in the "maybe" file for an agent I like a lot but who doesn't officially rep my genre. I guess sometimes they get tired of "perfect for them" books and get interested in something they never thought about.

Me too. There's an agent who has my query + pages. I'm out of her norm for response times so I'm hoping I'm in the "maybe" folder.

PrincessofPersia said:
That's true, but I've read concepts or summaries of books and movies that I thought I would hate, but then ended up loving. I think agents should take at least 5-10 pages with a query just for those situations.

Agreed. Blurbs on books are written by professional blurb writers. We are not those people, which is why I think query writing and novel writing are two very different art forms. And I've seen some terrible queries, but read pages that were great. So I think it's nice when an agent acknowledges this and reads the pages.

clare said:
So, what do you think? Is it no big deal? Do you think some agents read my query and thought, "a Native American boy named Jacob? Form rejection." And if I do rename the MC and the book, could I re-query after a few months?

Erm, would've never gotten the reference. Then again, I have no idea what Jacob's last name is. Agents know two things are easily changeable: names and titles. I really wouldn't worry about it. At all.

PrincessofPersia · Mar 7, 2011

Cricket18 said:
Agreed. Blurbs on books are written by professional blurb writers. We are not those people, which is why I think query writing and novel writing are two very different art forms. And I've seen some terrible queries, but read pages that were great. So I think it's nice when an agent acknowledges this and reads the pages.

Exactly. I've had betas who were so-so about the work based on my summary/query, but then absolutely loved the script (and the one novel I wrote). I'm just not that great at writing queries. My best query is mediocre at best lol.

ETA: Just had a little good news. I got a new beta reader, and she said she really liked my latest script. She said she loves the pacing and how frantic it feels--the plot is so complex that it makes her need to see how I'm gonna resolve it. Hopefully an agent will want to read it so they can think the same thing, lol.

Still no news though, but I queried 4 more agents. That's 24 out there now.

ink wench · Mar 8, 2011

Clare, I wouldn't worry about the name causing rejections, but you might want to consider changing.

Princess, yay and good luck!

Sent a nudge to the agent with 3-month full last night. Now I wait for the email that says "Oh, didn't you get my rejection?"

Purgatory's Pit of Doom

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