Vatican Versus Scientists

Bird of Prey

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100,000 back pope in battle with scientists
(AFP)

20 January 2008



VATICAN CITY - More than 100,000 people filled St Peter’s Square on Sunday in a show of support for Pope Benedict XVI after protests by scientists forced him to cancel a university speech.
The pilgrims gave a roar of approval when the pontiff, speaking after his weekly blessing, said: ‘I encourage all of you, dear academics, to always be respectful of the opinions of others, and to seek the truth and the good with an open and responsible mind.’
The 80-year-old pontiff cancelled a planned speech at Rome’s La Sapienza university last Thursday after dozens of professors and students protested his presence at the secular school.
‘I want especially to salute university youths, professors and all of you who have come today in such large numbers to St Peter’s Square to ... express your solidarity,’ the pope said.
In a rare unscripted exhortation at the end of the appearance from his apartment overlooking the iconic square, the pope said: ‘Let us go forward in this spirit of fraternity and love for freedom and truth, and common commitment for a brotherly and tolerant society.’
The final burst of applause from the pilgrims, including La Sapienza students, lasted some three minutes.
A Vatican spokesman put at 200,000 the number of pilgrims at the event-billed in the Italian media as ‘pope day’-in sunny, mild weather.
Giant screens were set up around the square to allow pilgrims, carrying banners reading ‘Holy Father We Love You’ and ‘Long Live Freedom of Thought,’ to see Benedict. . . .http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...uary/theworld_January564.xml&section=theworld

An historic role reversal. The Pope is calling for a tolerant society. I find this episode not only ironic but profound in its implications. Do we have to fear secularism now as the new threat to freedom of speech?
 

Duncan J Macdonald

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<Snippo Papal Stuff>
An historic role reversal. The Pope is calling for a tolerant society. I find this episode not only ironic but profound in its implications. Do we have to fear secularism now as the new threat to freedom of speech?
If you think that this exemplifies a historic role reversal, you need to learn more history.
 

maxmordon

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Personally, we have seem some reversals (like during the Spanish civil war, where some Republicans used to kill clergymen and shoot religious statues. This is of course forgotten compared with the fascist government of Franco) But since Secularism is something so new (I think, at least from the XVIII Century) hasn't really have a chance to show its atrocities compared with religions that have existed since the dawn of the man.

Basically, in my opinion, anything is bad taken on a extremist way. And a secular extremist sometimes are no better than your bible belt religious fanatic
 

InfinityGoddess

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Basically, in my opinion, anything is bad taken on a extremist way. And a secular extremist sometimes are no better than your bible belt religious fanatic

By what do you mean by "secular extremists"? The secularism that I'm all for allows people to believe what they want and that the government doesn't sponsor one form of religion over others.
 

maxmordon

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I know and support that church and state most be separated. But not exaggerate about this.

With Extremist Secularist I mean those odd cases where people are judged just for believe. Like the Soviet Union for many years, the Spanish second republic, some instances of the French third republic (there has been reported that a French minister even had those employees who went to mass being under survailance) China with the Tibet and some Latin American dictatorship that expelled any kind of priest or reverend out of their countries
 

Bird of Prey

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If you think that this exemplifies a historic role reversal, you need to learn more history.


The Pope is calling for tolerance. Now, in very recent years, I'll admit, that has been the position of the Catholic Church, but historically, the Catholic Church has been anything but tolerant.
 

HeronW

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The Catholic Church still thinks Galileo is fit for burning because 'Man' isn't the center of the universe..., hell, he ain't even the center of the solar system but don't let facts get in the way of rabid theocracy.
 

Takvah

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It's a shame that people of faith and people without it cannot simply agree to disagree. There seems to be a mandate on either side which demands conversion. It's wrong regardless of who it is that is doing it. God gave man free will. Politicians, clergy, activists and all the rest should simply accept that and move on. Our founding fathers as pious as they were accepted it. Jefferson and Madison went out of their way to insulate us from extremism on either side. When you hear people with a dog in this fight suggest that the Constitution be changed, you should all rise up and say, "NO!"
 
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William Haskins

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The Catholic Church still thinks Galileo is fit for burning because 'Man' isn't the center of the universe..., hell, he ain't even the center of the solar system but don't let facts get in the way of rabid theocracy.

the galileo myth is one of the hallmarks of a sort of secular fundamentalism.
 

jamiehall

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An historic role reversal. The Pope is calling for a tolerant society. I find this episode not only ironic but profound in its implications. Do we have to fear secularism now as the new threat to freedom of speech?

I see this not so much as the pope being tolerant, rather it is a case of the pope being smart. It is easy to ask others to be tolerant of yourself, it is harder to be tolerant of others.

If he'd condemned the scientists, what good would that do? It would just make him look bad.

But, by being nice and asking to be let in, he gets support.

If the Catholic church was still powerful enough to go around killing dissenters, like it could 500 years ago, would the pope still be this nice? It is hard to say. Maybe, maybe not. It is a question that can't really be answered, since all answers would be mere speculation.

But in this era, science has enormous power. Battling it directly is mostly pointless, and the pope knows that. Being nice to someone who snubs you, however, sets you up as the good guy and your opponent as the bad guy (regardless of whether this is true or not) which allows you more power.
 

Bird of Prey

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The Catholic Church still thinks Galileo is fit for burning because 'Man' isn't the center of the universe..., hell, he ain't even the center of the solar system but don't let facts get in the way of rabid theocracy.

Actually, the Catholic made some kind of statement about Galileo. . . .
He was exonerated in some fashion.
 

William Haskins

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the "common wisdom" of galileo is highly flawed and misunderstood/misrepresented (in differing ways, of course) by both devout and secular people.
 

Bird of Prey

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I see this not so much as the pope being tolerant, rather it is a case of the pope being smart. It is easy to ask others to be tolerant of yourself, it is harder to be tolerant of others.

If he'd condemned the scientists, what good would that do? It would just make him look bad.

But, by being nice and asking to be let in, he gets support.

If the Catholic church was still powerful enough to go around killing dissenters, like it could 500 years ago, would the pope still be this nice? It is hard to say. Maybe, maybe not. It is a question that can't really be answered, since all answers would be mere speculation.

But in this era, science has enormous power. Battling it directly is mostly pointless, and the pope knows that. Being nice to someone who snubs you, however, sets you up as the good guy and your opponent as the bad guy (regardless of whether this is true or not) which allows you more power.


Perhaps. The Pope could be that cunning, that calculated. But regardless, I'm not sure I'm thrilled with universities today that want to shout down other points of view. I find it a very disturbing trend. As Max said, during the Spanish Civil War, members of the clergy were killed. It had to do with the rise of Communism and its promotion of a secular state. A lot of universities were intolerant. I see something similar happening currently even though universities are supposed to be institutions of learning. I don't like the intimidation factor.
 

William Haskins

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In what regard?

i think there's a caricature in the public consciousness of an intellectual being martyred for the cause of science after being seized by backward and ignorant fanatics who refused to believe anything of science.

the historical record contradicts this.
 

jamiehall

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Perhaps. The Pope could be that cunning, that calculated.

I'm not trying to portray the Pope as a cunning, calculating man. I'm just saying that he's in a situation where it's pretty obvious what any smart person would do, and he isn't stupid. I've seen plenty of others act the same way in similar situations. If people stand to gain a lot from being nice, and will lose out if they aren't nice, it becomes impossible to judge whether their actions come from genuine tolerance for others, from being intelligent, or from a mixture of both.

But regardless, I'm not sure I'm thrilled with universities today that want to shout down other points of view. I find it a very disturbing trend. As Max said, during the Spanish Civil War, members of the clergy were killed. It had to do with the rise of Communism and its promotion of a secular state. A lot of universities were intolerant. I see something similar happening currently even though universities are supposed to be institutions of learning. I don't like the intimidation factor.

Anytime a particular set of beliefs gets held up as "THE TRUTH" absolute and unvarnished, offenses like these can occur. It doesn't matter whether that set of beliefs is grounded in religion, science or something else. I also believe that secular humanism, materialism and other such science-based worldviews need to be watched closely so that disturbing trends within them don't continue.
 

William Haskins

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one of the fundamental questions of philosophy is how people ought to live, and it is intrinsically tied to free will.

dogma, whether religious or secular, tends to become a cudgel with which to beat free will from the human animal.
 

Bird of Prey

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i think there's a caricature in the public consciousness of an intellectual being martyred for the cause of science after being seized by backward and ignorant fanatics who refused to believe anything of science.

the historical record contradicts this.

What I thought happened was that he was caught in a political cross-fire between the Medici and Urban VIII, the latter who had been sympathetic to Galileo in the past. The Medicis - long benefactors of science and art - were in no position to buck the Pope at the time, as their finances weren't secure. Beyond that, all I surmised was that it was a misunderstanding between Galileo and the Pope, the former believing it safe to promote Capernicus' Theory, having had the Pope's support at an earlier time.

Am I wrong?
 

William Haskins

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copernican theory was never the issue with galileo (nor for bruno - who was, in fact, burned at the stake).

actually, you might find this article interesting (if you know who d'souza is, you may well not agree with him on political or theological matters, but it's a well-sourced article and a fairly good compendium of the facts of galileo's trial.)

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20071125_He_didnt_suffer_all_that_much.html
 

DamaNegra

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I never understand why people are so afraid of their beliefs being challenged. I mean, if you hold THE truth, then it's obvious you shouldn't have anything to be afraid of, right? For me, this fear just tells me that these people are not even sure about their beliefs, and the insecurity runs down so deep they need to protect themselves against any new ideas of any sort. This goes either way. I remember my mom refusing to read the DaVinci Code because it would challenge her beliefs. I told her: "if your beliefs were strong, they'd resist any challenge." She didn't answer. She hasn't read the book. Whatever. I also have a friend who won't even touch the Bible because she doesn't believe in all that stuff. Well, if she really was sure about all that, she wouldn't have a problem with reading the Bible.

So, what's the big deal? Let the pope into the university. I'm sure he just wants to give a talk and not take the building by storm and burn all the books in a great pile and then burn all the teachers. Meh.
 

Bird of Prey

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The article basically states what I thought regarding the misunderstanding. Gallileo did not deliberately break faith with the Pope, though, at least in my view. Gallileo's final years must be a mystery - I suspect history has been revised a bit - because everything I've read indicates that he was refused medical attention. I don't know.