The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Proof Nightmare

This is a nightmare. My proofs are a mess and the editor at PA seems to think that the changes I am requesting are "stylistic," (versus grammatical/punctuation related as I am asserting) and they refuse to make any changes-- which is a complete load of you- know- what. She can't even send and email that is free of grammatical errors and this is who is supposed to "edit" my book? YIKES! I have asked for my rights back several times on the grounds that as it stands, my novel does not meet publishing standards. I am getting no where fast. My greatest fear is that they are going to send this abomination to press without making necessary changes. This is the week from hell!

Here are some email excerpts that my "qualified editor" sent to me:

First email:
I assure you that your manuscript has been edited line for line. Per you
contract, we only edit grammar and punctuation mistakes, not anything
stylistic.

Please send me some examples of what you have found that you feel are a part
of the "myriad of grammatical errors that would probably
make a seasoned editor cringe."

At this time, I am reviewing your manuscript as well.

Most recent:
I looked at the document and what you corrected was not wrong. You
changing the way it is written is style. We do not correct style. I am not
at liberty to change your sentences to sound better or more concise,
because that is changing your style, your wording. And per policy, we can
not do that. I can change grammar and punctuation with you have already
written. So, I am asking that you send me a list of corrections, that do
not pertain to style and word changing, by the two-week deadline. I can
change things like "peak" to "peek"...that is why we have a two-week
deadline...to catch the little things...I will be awaiting your list.



:head I can't seem to get her to understand that inserting commas into a sentence does not make it a correct sentence!! She also edited sentences that were FINE!! GRRRRRR! Anyone have some words of wisdom?

DO NOT AUTHORIZE...

I promise you that per your contract if you ask a lawyer they HAVE to adhere to what they promised you. The absolute minute that you send back any revisions, your done. The book will be printed incorrectly. Don't go to print!!! Tell them no if you have to shout it. They have to have final say from you per your contract. It's in their print. If not they have to release you. YOU HAVE POWER! Do not give it up to see your work in print. It's worth more than that.

:head

Re: Proof Nightmare

Anyone have some words of wisdom?

Get with me in e-mail.

Professionalism.

and most business leaders would not be engaging in dialogues on boards such as this as representatives of their companies.

Click to expand...

Try telling that to politicians. How many political ads did you see on tv where they bashed each other? I know they are not business leaders but still. I think Lynn has a right to keep her sig under her name, she is not fishing for ms. or trying to con people into going with her company.

Kevin

Re: Proof Nightmare

NCQ -

I've got an idea - I don't know if it would work, but you might want to contact PA and in a non-confrontational manner let them know that you are quite unhappy with how your book has been edited. Let them know that because of the quality of book, you have no intention of promoting your book in any way shape or form. Let them know that you have no intention of buying any copies of your book yourself or encouraging anyone else to buy it either. And that you would like out of your contract.

If they know they will not make A dime off of you, maybe they'll let you out of the contract before they spend any more money on your book. They know that they are going to do nothing to market it - so they'll realize that there will be no profits from you.

There are still expenses they will need to incur creating cover art, etc. whatever electronic typesetting needs to be done, printing and binding your author copies. It may not cost them a lot of money, but it will cost more than they will make. Maybe they'll cut their losses and let you out now.

Like I said - don't know if it will work or not - but it might.

Re: Did I miss something?

Hmm...let's see if I understand this: It's not right for an ex-PA author/current publisher to comment on PA and/or publishing issues, but it's A-OK for a current, but anonymous PA author to post here regarding those same issues?

One posts credible information, sans malice, and is not afraid of her using her real name and established credentials.

The other...well, the other doesn't, is too afraid, and doesn't have any.

It's a head-scratcher for sure.

Lynn, if an ersatz author thinks less of you and Behler as a result of your posts here I have a hunch it just means one less rejection letter you'd have to write.

Re: Expressions

I said at least three - maybe four times that Lynn is obviously free to post what she wants where she wants.

But I think a certain amount of gravitas can be gained by seeing where a person chooses to share information. This board does often slide into snarkiness and sarcasm. It does not have the demeanor of some other venues.

You don't see the heads of the major studios posting on the Hollywood oriented boards dissecting the current Disney trial. In private many are probably gleeful at the revelations about Mr. Ovitz's tenure at the Mouse House, but as the heads of major corporations - it is inappropriate for them to join into the discourse on these boards - even if their remarks are above reproach. They may express their opinions in more dignified venues - an interview in Time, an op-ed piece on corporate avarice.

I certainly meant no disrespect toward Lynn. And hopefully for her, there are few out there (and I don't mean on these boards I mean out there beyond these boards) who share my view.

Excrement

This board is about P.A. and other lousy publications.

Could we please cut the crap and stay on topic.

There is a TAKE IT OUTSIDE board if you really want to continue voicing your personal opinions of each other. Including, what you're doing right and wrong in the subject of business management.g
Simon you're way to uptight... relax! At least Pro&Con has somewhat of a sense of humor.

Quite frankly I could care less how the information posted is obtained and by who. ...and the sarcasm is a nice touch...

Cheers people

Re: Did I miss something?

AKA:

"Lynn, if an ersatz author thinks less of you and Behler as a result of your posts here I have a hunch it just means one less rejection letter you'd have to write."

Frank - thank you so much for illustrating my point so beautifully.

This comment is snarky, mean-spirited and nasty. It was written to belittle and insult me and for absolutely no other purpose.

This is the atmosphere that Lynn posts in. THESE are the people that she is seen associating not only herself with, but her company as well. Even the moderators on this site behave in this manner. Not the classiest place for a publisher to be hanging out. The publishers I know hang out at Elaine's.

Re: Did I miss something?

Aka,

ROFL :rofl

You get me every time with your jokes. You are good!

We should go fishing and have a beer if they'll let you out of Canada. I'm sure you could keep me from beating you fishing by keeping me laughing with all of your funny jokes.

I don't really care how many posts Lynn makes or comments on. She has the right to post anytime she wants to post.

I make a lot of sense even though you won't give me the credit. That's okay. I'll still go fishing with you

I call it like I see it regardless if it is PA or another issue that interest me.

I just made a couple of observations.

1. I don't see any other publishers on any of the boards I
visit. Name them if that is not the case.

2. Lynn seems like an advertisement to me when she adds her
company's name as part of her signature and then toots
her horn that she has two more books scheduled to be
reviewed in the (I think) Publisher's Weekly.

Sorry I made you pull the hook out of the water long enough to nail me as usual.

I need to know the answer

Does Ingram provide monthly reports to each publisher on how many copies of each title has been sold and in what venue?

Dee
"The Making of a Bestseller: Success Stories from Authors, and the Editors, Agents and Booksellers Behind Them," Dearborn Trade, March 2005
www.BrianHillAndDeePower....eller.html

I think so?

Dee;

I think they provide reports as you have to contract with an account with them for them to distribute your books. I have the contract so I am sure that they have reports. You can get those online as well. It's public information.

Everyone who knows Molly Brown. She's taken a turn and is ill so has not been able to write on the boards. I'm sure she'd like to hear from ya'll. If you read this Molly, I wish you well.

:thumbs

Re: Professionalism.

Gee, SimonSays, how about saying that to some other folks such as TNH at Making Light at URL nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/ or PNH at Electrolyte at URL nielsenhayden.com/electrolite since they seem to also be opinionated individuals who also work with a publishing company?

Perhaps GD at Asimov's at URL www.asimovs.com/discus/ shouldn't engage in small talk?

When it comes down to it, it appears that only your sense of decorum is infected by others appearing here to state their opinions and offer advice.

Dave Kuzminski, Knight Spirits, ISBN 1-55404-094-9, Double Dragon Publishing Inc. www.amazon.com/exec/obido...s&n=507846

Re: Professionalism.

Meanwhile, back at PA....

<BLOCKQUOTE>Can your book be at least ORDERED through B&N and Borders? I tried to order a PA book from my local Borders, and was told they couldn't even order it!
Has ayone else had this problem?
If our books can't be stocked or even ordered through the book stores, we've got a problem which must be addressed by PA. I'm sure PA management don't like that anymore than the authors do; after all, it means their profits will suffer.
Also, has anyone had a problem getting their book through Amazon.com?
Someone PLEASE answer. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/6506.htm" target="_new">Barnes and Noble decision </a>

The problem is in the switchover to the One Source program. Expect it to be done by the end of March '05. But no, PA managment won't do anything.

This is for two reasons: First, they're powerless to do anything. I'm not certain that anyone at Ingram's even returns their phone calls. Second, their profits don't have anything to do with bookstore sales. They don't care if the books can be ordered, through bookstores, except in as far as they need to claim to future happy authors that their books will be "available" in bricks-and-mortar bookstores.

What this does to PA's claim that they aren't a PoD, when Ingram is clearly treating them as a PoD, remains to be seen. I expect they'll be ignoring this one and hoping it'll go away.

I was going to say something about HB's comments in that same thread, but I think I'll do it in a separate post.

Professionalism

Dave -

I do not go to any of the sites you mentioned, so I don't know what the tenor of those boards are.

And incidentally I have no issue with the tenor of THIS board. I just can't imagine any of the publishing industry professionals that I know contributing to a forum such as this one because of the prevalence of nastiness and pettiness that permaeates it. I don't think they want to be seen as a part of that pettiness and nastiness - because of their professional status. I think they would choose, actually let me rephrase that, i KNOW they have chosen more dignified venues and/or to remain anonymous.

And I'm not talking about writers - I'm talking about those who are employed by or who run companies in the industry. Publishers, editors, agents, etc. For all I know their are many of them on this board, but if they are on this board - they post in such a way that they are not associating themselves with their companies - and I believe that is a much more professional way to go.

Just because you don't agree with my opinions, doesn't mean that I am evil or mean or that I don't have a right to my opinions.

Re: Professionalism

SimonSays, those are where they typically hang out, but they've been known to frequent other boards. When they do, and I've seen them do so, they use their names. All three I mentioned are editors. All three are well respected in the industry. I could name others, but I felt these were enough to illustrate my point.

Re: Professionalism

>>2. Lynn seems like an advertisement to me when she adds her company's name as part of her signature and then toots her horn that she has two more books scheduled to be
reviewed in the (I think) Publisher's Weekly.<<

General discussion of who should post what where and why is fine (if off-topic), but the sniping at Lynn is getting tedious, and way too personal. I suggest this subject be dropped. If that's impossible, please take the discussion to the Take it Outside Board.

Thanks.

- Victoria

Re: Proof Nightmare

Well I took a gander at those sites Dave, and although I just scanned them, there does appear to be a much different tone on those boards then on this one.

Less rancourous, less emotional, less petty, more professional if you will.

When your editor friends start posting on THIS board on a regular basis and get involved with this dialogue, maybe I will change my opinion. I've been known to do that.

Re: Proof Nightmare

I've got an idea - I don't know if it would work, but you might want to contact PA and in a non-confrontational manner let them know that you are quite unhappy with how your book has been edited. Let them know that because of the quality of book, you have no intention of promoting your book in any way shape or form. Let them know that you have no intention of buying any copies of your book yourself or encouraging anyone else to buy it either. And that you would like out of your contract.

Click to expand...

Thank you Simon. I have already tried that, without success. I have a complaint on file with the BBB and I have some other legal actions in the works. I am also not opposed to launching a protest on their steps in MD if need be, though I am hopeful things will not come to that.

Becca,
Thank you for the reminder that I am not powerless in all of this. I refuse to give them final approval on my proofs and am going to take my time with them. With two small children, my freelancing jobs, and the responsibilities of caring for an ailing elder parent, I have my hands full. The last thing I need is to get twisted into knots over PA, particularly when I still hold some of the cards legally. They did, after all, fail to provide a competent and complete editing of my MS (IMHO).

Re: Proof Nightmare

Gordon van Gelder and Teresa Nielsen Hayden both appeared, using their real names, on Marti's short-lived board. I didn't keep copies of their posts, but I believe they were polite.

Some folks here are more polite than others, this is true. I like to think of myself as being more on the polite side, but still I don't see anything wrong with analysing the messages from the PA Infocenter, line by line.

I know of several industry professionals who post here under pseudonyms. (Some of them have psudonyms or noms-de-net of long standing from many venues, where there isn't really a big mystery about who those people are. If I were to post as "Red Mike," a name that I've used in on-line forums for well over a decade, it might not be clear to the newbies, but I wouldn't be concealing myself from those who had a bit more experience.)

Anyway...

HB says:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
JD and Danielle, what I wrote was basically "managers are liars". They don't want to be bothered with some new author who calls or walks in and asks to be stocked.<hr></blockquote>

He also says that PA's business model is the same as that of the traditional publishers, and traditionally published authors have to do the same things that PA authors must do to get their books on shelves.

How, then, does he explain that new authors from traditional publishers are able to get bookstore display while PA authors (himself included) can't?

HB, if you're here, would you care to answer?

Oh, briefly, back to Marti (who has my utmost sympathy, BTW). What was the big surprise she had cooked up for the bobbleheads, that she was keeping secret until she could launch it? Did that ever happen?

James D. Macdonald
http://www.navy.mil/

Re: Expressions

James - you always manage to stay above the fray. If the tenor of this board was always near or at your level of communication (or Anne's or Victoria's) - I would not feel the way I do.

Re: Expressions

Simon said:

The publishers I know hang out at Elaine's.

Click to expand...

No kidding, Simon? Which publishers would those be? And what would they be doing clear up in the East 80s, when the industry's in Midtown? Elaine's was always more of a writers' hangout. To some extent, it still is.

The publishers I know best eat overcooked cheeseburgers, chicken tandoori, bad Chinese takeout, good takeout tuna salad, and sandwiches brought from home. Respectively. When they go out for something fancier, they do go to good restaurants -- but not, so far as I know, to Elaine's. Maybe your buds are different. But in spite of the publishers I know not hanging out at Elaine's, you can find books they've published in any good bookstore you cared to name, and innumerable wire racks as well.

And now for the really big question: If you've got all these red-hot publishing connections, how come you're hanging around here?

Re: Expressions

Actually Sofi - I know two. Perhaps 'hang out' was an exaggeration I do not know their regular habits - but one of them took me there and I met the other one when I was there.

As for why I hang around here, I'd thought that would be obvious Sofi - I do it to annoy you. I have a thing for pushing the buttons of sanctimonious hypocrites such as yourself.

Re: Expressions

(laughs merrily)

BBB

Still no report from the Frederick Better Business Bureau on our pals at PA: <a href="http://www.dc.bbb.org/codbrep.html?ID=7004667&cons=y" target="_new">This report is not available because it is being updated.</a>

So, kids, keep those cards and letters coming. No need to say anything here on line. Just pass the word by email to your pals who are still held in irons on the pirate ship.

And when you're sending in your facts, don't forget to inform these folks:

Office of the Attorney General
Consumer Protection Division-Beth Silverman
200 St. Paul Place
Baltimore, MD 21202