On Modern Profanity in Ancient Stories **THREAD CONTAINS PROFANITY** (duh.)

My completely inexpert opinion on that would be to stick with modern swearing, as long as it's not mixed with current slang, so "fuck you" but not "go fuck a duck, ass-hat." I think you're right that it fits the English you're using for everything else. And I'm pretty sure the main dirty words describing sex, excrement, fatherless kids, etc., have been around as long as language has. Good luck!

"Fuckest thou!" is my new favourite.

That's a tough one.

If the rest of your language is modern then, yes, the swear words wouldn't bug me. As I tend to concentrate on early to mid 20th century, it's easy for me to work around the issue.

Sorry, not much help am I?

I think I have a link to a web site that generates Shakespearean insults, much along the lines of titbrained guttersnape.

I think the first distinction that has to be made is the difference between dialogue and narrative. Profanity in dialogue is not unexpected, but in narrative ...?

Second point (which is very applicable here on AW) is what version of English the writer is primarily using - US English, British English, etc. Profanity used should not be a mix from more than one background. I can see a person from the US with an AW background using "bugger off" because we see it from our British counterparts, but, if the majority of the text is in US English, it stands out like a sore thumb.

Point three (which has been cussed and discussed many times on this forum) is the current propensity for using profanity. That wasn't the norm in the past - in books (including historical fiction) and even in daily conversation. The old school thought was that people who used a lot of profanity had a limited vocabulary.

Granted, there has been (I suppose, but I don't think anyone knows for sure) profanity throughout history. It's a writer's choice of whether and how they want to use it. But, as with any grammatical gimmick, whenever something is overused, it tends to lose its effectiveness.

In my opinion, there are some scenarios, some pieces of dialogue that would not be as effective without profanity, but for the most part, my preference is for use of more interesting words. Puma

Don't forget...

that sailors had many superstitions, you can work these into the language as swearing which won't sound modern.

Ditto if you can swear like the Spanish invoking ancestors.

Ditto if you swear using expressions about customs, manners and physical appearance.

What about mixing up religious iconography with profanity? I understand that this happened (and continues to happen) in the Med a great deal, there being a distinct North European/South European split when it comes to profanity, the Southern European being the more the better? "Virgin's tits!" or "God's balls!" sort of thing, to avoid the idea of it sounding too modern while avoiding the temptation to speak "forsoothly"

RichardB said:

When I write their profane dialogue, I use modern swear words. My thinking is that I'm translating everything else into modern (but non-anachronistic) speech anyway, so why not the swear words?

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The above sums it up. So long as you are using modern profanity that would have been likely in your era, I don't see a problem. By that I don't mean words/phrases that would necessarily have had exact counterparts in translation; I mean profanity that would have been spoken for the same effect, to express the same feelings or intentions. Just avoid current street slang, especially slang that leans heavily towards US/UK, etc.

Do you know which unique profanities they used during your era? Is it possible to find out from texts (letters or something?). You could translate from there, but I'd leave off doing that if the authentic profanities sound ridiculous or alientating. Stick with the good old classics, and you'll be fine. That said, I like Pdr's suggestions to add a little extra period flavour.

I missed something in my post last night and want to add it because I think it's worthwhile.

How many novels have you read that used - S'Blood, Sacre Bleu, Himmel, por Dios, etc? Using the swear words from the native tongue (and period) adds a level of color that is totally lost if you replace them with contemporary English. Puma

Puma said:

I missed something in my post last night and want to add it because I think it's worthwhile.

How many novels have you read that used - S'Blood, Sacre Bleu, Himmel, por Dios, etc? Using the swear words from the native tongue (and period) adds a level of color that is totally lost if you replace them with contemporary English. Puma

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I'd agree to an extent, so long as those native swear words haven't been overused to the point they become, well, overused. I'm thinking 'Zounds and the like (in books set in the Middle Ages). Since Richard's era is quite early, he could find something authentic yet fresh, something the reader could recognise as profantiy.

Period-sounding metaphor/similies might work effectively.

Swear words will work much better in dialogue than narrative, unless it's first person.

Modern English swear words would be okay, as long as, like KCathy said, you aren't using modern slang. Not only would it seem totally out of place, it would date your work as soon as the slang went out of style.

As long as the swear words fit in with the rest of the narrative and make sense for the character, I tihnk they're fine.

In an old draft of my current WIP, I debated having my character--a frustrated young lawyer in his early twenties--muttering to himself about someone "ringing the bell like every other fucking visitor." I ended up completely canning that version of the story, but I was still unsure about the word (he may have cursed to himself, but never to someone else) and usage (the "effing this: and "effing that" usage is recent, no?).

Richard - Have you looked at contemporary (or even 19th c) swear words in Naples/Italy/Italian? I suspect there are equivalents to those in use (in France and Spain particularly) in Italy/Italian. What's by/for God in Italian? What about holy (sacred) pig, bastard, etc. What about curses that are strictly from Naples? I think you can probably come up with some good substitutes. Puma

angeliz2k said:

In an old draft of my current WIP, I debated having my character--a frustrated young lawyer in his early twenties--muttering to himself about someone "ringing the bell like every other fucking visitor." I ended up completely canning that version of the story, but I was still unsure about the word (he may have cursed to himself, but never to someone else) and usage (the "effing this: and "effing that" usage is recent, no?).

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I don't know when people started using 'effing', but throughout history they must have had their own equivalents - if not in the exact translation, certainly to produce the intended effect.

do you remember that very first discussion about:

"It was the year of 867" or something like that. Same thing here.

My argument is:

by choosing period (swear) words, we are not bringing the reader close. We are pushing him away. In your case, a thousand years away. The reader is not leaving on that ship among those sailors. He is sitting in a XXI century chair, recognising swear words. It's like recognising the meaning of a joke, which is not funny at all.
It has to pop, just like it pops now.

Your characters’ reality is as real to them and as fresh, as it is to us today. Why oh why would your IX century sailors suddenly start swearing like Trojans?
See?

I personally wouldn't want the reader to have this constant impression "Ah, yes, it was so long ago, yes, I realise that."
I want the reader to live in the Then.

yeah, sorry, we type at the same time. That's reality to you

yes, I knew this about the real fights.
interesting. i want to think about it.

Richard - And here's where I'm going to differ from you greatly. I see blasted oar, stinking oar, even damn oar, etc. as much more likely in the time period. The use/overuse of fucking to the extent it's currently being used, from what I've seen, really is a modern thing and does date your writing.

Think of it another way, if you're successful with St. Mark's body and fuck goes out of popular use in the next thirty years (it's been about thirty since it gained popularity), will future readers take a look at your book and decide not to read it because of the language.

It's your choice how you want to do it, but make sure you consider every possible outcome of your decision. Puma

Puma said:

Think of it another way, if fuck goes out of popular use in the next thirty years,

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What?! Fuck goes out of use in thirty years? I hope I am dead by then. Life is not worth living. I swear, it's my most favourite word!

Richard, write your book in stone. I will have it placed on my grave.

Interesting debate. Let me just find something ... the discussion we've had with a historian once about it ...

not on the 9th century unfortunately. I think you are stuck on that one. Tooooo Dark.

I'll be back in a flash.

Check this out. This is from the first pages of Gates of Fire, the book we all know and love.
That's Spartan language.

Greetings:
"Eat This"
"Love and Kisses"

"shut your pipehole, you sniveling little shitworm!"
"How does that feel, you fucking thief?"
"you night-creeping little rat."
"bullets" <---
"diapers" <---
"to get nice and cozy" <---
"the King sleeps in a shithole over there"
"you fucking come-spot"
"psalm-singing" <----
"miserable mound of shit"
"buttfuck"


Say, let's take two problematic words: damn and shit

I will be referring to Greeks, but since we are speaking in general. and Latin is just right next door.

now see:

"Shit!" as an expletive, if someone breaks a cup. the term had no expletive value. they would not shout shit!, they would shout Omoi (something like alas) But would that have the same effect?

"damn" - oooh, too Christian. can't use.
but. how would it sound if your character said "curse you" rather than "damn you"

I am using both.

But well, just sharing. Whatever you feel like using in your book.