The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Re: To write or not to write an article about PA?

The cleverness of PA's website sales pitch is that it _doesn't_ claim that gets its books into bricks-and-mortar stores--only that they are "available" (which they are--by special order, and sometimes if the authors themselves have persuaded an individual store to stock), and that bricks-and-mortar stores including Barnes & Noble, Borders, and Books-A-Million are their largest customers (which because of those special orders they may well be--after the authors themselves, of course). This is intended to be misleading, since many people will assume that "available" means "stocked", and won't realize that "order" only means "special order". But it isn't actually untrue.

- Victoria

Re: To write or not to write an article about PA?

I've found that more placew are reticent about stocking the POD books more from the no returns policy of the publishers rather than the actual print quality of the books. I have seen some POD books that made extremely well and I have seen others that look like something a third grade student did with their school computer and handbound it with rubber cement.

To write or not to write an article about PA?

I believe that a court of law would use the 'reasonable man' interpretation, rather than the tricky language on the web site. 'Would a reasonable and prudent man expect the books to be stocked and available in a bricks and mortar bookstore based on the PublishAmerica verbage?' And the answer is yes.

In any event I'm not an attorney, but I know how to hire one. We have sent all the PA materials to our law firm in New York, they specialize in entertainment and publishing. We've had them on retainer for a year now. They've requested our approval to have one of their litigators review the materials as well, and we said yes.

Wish us luck. If anybody has any ammo about PA they think would help, we'd appreciate it.

Dee

www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com

Re: To write or not to write an article about PA?

Suggestion? Set up a website for writers to type in PA stories. Require registration to post, but don't display it, just the stories. Vet what you get. Show the real ones. Wait awhile. Then write about PA.

Re: To write or not to write an article about PA?

Set up an e-mail address where people can send you interesting threads from the PA bulletin board. The rules would be: Full thread (unedited) and URL.

Things show up on that board that their moderators miss for a couple of hours.

Also, to prove bad intent, check out <a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/" target="_new">www.authorsmarket.net/</a> for false, misleading, and harmful advice.

Re: To write or not to write an article about PA?

Also, to prove bad intent, check out www.authorsmarket.net/ for false, misleading, and harmful advice.

Click to expand...

should we count the days (hours maybe?) until they take that down now?

with the mention of lawyers and that site on the same page...

Won't help them, not really

Why? Because all the search engines have that site cached. Therefore, there will still be copies that the owners can't touch in order to delete. Those won't last forever, but they'll last more than long enough to make a difference.

Re: Won't help them, not really

I know of one thread certainly, where the PA moderater made what is in my opinion a legally false statement. At the very least it is misleading. To ensure the thread does not go anywhere before you see it, if you want the link I can email it to you.

<edit> I'm gonna have to send them a crappy manuscript to publish so I can write on their message board.:smack
Of couirse Then I can be one of the Pirates like HB:snoopy

Re: Won't help them, not really

Out of morbid curiosity, does the scope of any investigation into PA unprofessional practices include their publishing at least one cover using an unauthorized celebrity image? If nothing else, I’d think it’d prove their ignorance or callous disregard for many things a traditional publisher would know and care about.

CAO

Re: Won't help them, not really

At the very least, that should be reported to the celebrity whose picture was used. Give the title of the book, the ISBN, and where you saw it so it can be verified.

PA

OK, where do I start? I am a newly "published" PA author. I've been investigating the business end of publishing in my spare time for about six months. Yea, I'm not even weaned yet.

I have several issues with PA, but a whole lot more with the industry in general. I am a businessman of 25 years who writes for many reasons, one of which is to escape from the back-stabbing, lying, cheating, stealing world of trading dollars and services. Watching ignorance become the lever to extract value is not entertaining. I am stuck doing it 8 hours a day and while I do my level best to warn people and educate along the way, the basic story goes on endlessly. Honesty is out of style. Therefore, I am a relic.

Use whatever definition you are comfortable with. I write because I have to, because I love it, because it helps me. Thirty years of throwing away the last manuscript was great therapy. But now that I am grown up, (sort of) I actually know how to finish a good story (I think). The problem is, as I escaped from my own business woes, I failed to research the publishing industry. I was positively recalcitrant to do the homework until the signals got so loud I had to listen. But alas, it is too late for what I consider to be an excellent first novel. I get it now. It is too late.

Ironically, as has been stated here already, a good writer need not get discovered in today's world. Mark Twain wouldn't stand a chance. It's a jungle out there.

Sure, there is definitely a large amount of trash circulating. But why does a writer need a law degree and contacts with the rich and famous to get a fair hearing? I know, it's the numbers … it's the economy… stupid.

Given the right set of circumstances, I would be happy to testify to my own experience with PA. But they'll blackball me in a New York minute and then I'd be even less known than I stand to be now. Don't misunderstand. I don't want to take over the literary world. I'm not an ego-maniac. I am a middle-aged man who wants to do what he loves and make enough money to support a family. That's all. I want to migrate into a new job!

I'm not a dreamer either. If I wasn't certain that my work was good enough, I'd just keep throwing manuscripts away. If that's where I end up, so be it. But the dozen people I trust to evaluate my work all agree.

So if I haven't convinced you that I'm a shameless wanna-be, please bear with me.

As an idealist, it seems to me that a book should stand on its own merits. Yes, I understand how lame that sounds. I believe the author should be anonymous. That's what I want. It's all I want. Yet good books stand little hope swimming in the sea of mediocrity that PA pushes. Now I get it.

There is some talent at PA from what I have seen. Most of it is young and undisciplined, naïve and without true direction. But it is there; and it is being lied to. The law is beside the point. People who put the best of themselves into a project, whether they have talent or not, should be treated honestly and respectfully. I have seen sarcasm dealt out like candy and false compliments given where courteous criticism was all that was called for. Some of them do need to go back to school, but that is no reason to treat them as idiots who cannot ascertain the difference between false praise and the poorly written form letter.

I jumped on getting published because I was ignorant. I actually believed that a small press who didn't ask for money up front must be a respectable business. I did not expect miracles. I expected professionalism. I expected to talk with an editor about the points of the book and the style of the writing. I expected a close look at consistency. I expected criticism. When I got, "Hurry up and give us the final submission", I became skeptical. It got worse from there.

I wanted desperately to take three more months and finish polishing the story. It is good as is, but with just a little more work, it would have been complete. PA said, "We'll give you two weeks."

Later, when my 'editor' emailed her corrections, I found more mistakes than in the original submission. Again, I was given two weeks to read, review and edit (insert large number) words. For the most part, it was identical to the submission; but as I said, during the copy process there were various typos and punctuation errors that were not in the manuscript. I was correcting my editor!

There is more to the story, but I will spare you. Generally speaking, people, including lawyers and judges, do not listen to disgruntled employees or clients. Buyer beware. They will listen to successful professionals, however. That is what it will take to expose PA, a successful writer who had a horrible experience doing business with them. It is my dream to be that writer.

I am promoting a hopelessly idealistic campaign of word of mouth. I do not expect a single person to lift a finger. I am asking people to look past the blasted publisher's name, buy my book at Barnes & Nobel or Amazon.com and read it. If anyone can prove to me that he/she actually read it and did not enjoy it, I will buy it back. If at some point I can gain an audience, I promise to speak honestly about PA. Problem is, I have a seven-year contract that says in essence, 'I will not criticize my publisher, and he will not criticize me'. So the goal is ten years.

Simultaneously, my worst nightmare is coming to pass too. Since my book has come out, I have had almost no time to write. Marketing, planning, reading this and other boards, looking for people who might listen for thirty seconds – all of these things are affecting my usual level of inspiration and taking away from my coveted research time. I also have four children and ten employees. I'm not afraid of work. I'm afraid of working at the wrong things.

This board has been particularly helpful in verifying my growing suspicions. I started writing when I was 12. Through the years, it has become a bigger and bigger part of my life as my spectrum of experiences and observations have widened. I am too old to learn the required gymnastics of publishing and promoting. I have had enough of business. Still, I am too stubborn not to pursue this last career wish. As I find so often, the ironies of real life are far more unbelievable than anything I could have invented.

Thank you, and keep up the good work. I'll be watching.

- noname

Re: PA

>>I have a seven-year contract that says in essence, 'I will not criticize my publisher, and he will not criticize me'.<<

If so, the contract has changed since the last time I saw it, just a few months ago. Would you mind quoting that clause here? Or if you prefer, contact me [email protected]. If the contact has changed, I'd like to document it.

I'm sorry for the sense of disillusion you're feeling right now. It can be really tough to pick yourself up after such a disappointment. But if you have one book in you, I'm sure you have another--and truly, you don't need contacts or a celebrity name to break into "big" publishing (or to land a reputable small publisher)...just a good book. I know a lot of writers, none of whom are celebrities or have any special connections--but they all got published anyway. With your next book, give the "traditional" market a determined try. All you have to lose is postage.

One last thing: Trust me, PA cannot blackball you except on its own message board. PA's only connection to the real world of publishing is the writers.

- Victoria

Re: PA

Hi, clonesrus2001.

If you want to write and publish your novels, please, join me in the "Uncle Jim" thread up on the Writing Novels board.

I try to give good advice.

The idea that first-time writers, the unknown writers, can't get published is a false one that the bottom-feeders and scammers push because it fills their pockets.

Take heart.

You should write your next book. Forget the running around doing promotion.

Even if you do all the publicity that PA suggests and do it perfectly, even if you spend all your time on the phone arranging signings with increasingly reluctant bookstores, you won't sell enough books to make it worth your time or recoup your expenses.

Write more, and better books. Run out the clock. After seven years you'll get your book back. You do the final polish and sell it as a fresh work, because no one will have seen it.

Have to mention this

Two of the ads at the top of the page were for super hero costumes. Jim, Victoria, do you suppose they know about you?

Re: PA

Clone, you're obviously articulate and intelligent and I have little doubt that your book is a good one. But I'm loathe to part with my hard-earned dollars in order to add to PA's coffers.

I take mild umbrage with one of your statements. You are NOT too old to learn the "required gymnastics of publishing and promoting."

There is a goldmine of information on this and other writing sites. I've been freelancing for half my life and have learned more in the last three years than the previous 25. On this site alone you have the benefit of hundreds of writers' accumulated experience.

You chose the wrong publisher. So have thousands of your brethren. Some are trying to get the rights to their book back. A few seem to be succeeding (check out the Mindsight board for one poster's on-going attempt to get hers back). Many have chosen to put the experience behind them and move on. Your decision is up to you but I hope you don't let one wrong choice derail your writing career.

A common, and true refrain you'll hear a lot here is that every traditionally-published writer was unknown and unpublished at one time. It takes a good book, some research on agents and pubs, perseverance and postage; not a magic formula or networking with people who have an "in."

Your disillusionment is understandable but I hope you don't let it cripple you.

PA woes

Dear new friend,
I don't agree with you about your situation. Mine is similiar, I didn't check on them because they were highly recommended in a writing group I was attending. To make a long story short, my book can't be sold anywhere, period! The price, the poor quality, the errors, etc,etc,etc, and on and on. I am too important to myself to let them do this to me. I guarantee you the judge, the jury, and the lawyer, WILL listen to me. They (PA) will be run out of town. One more thing, I'm old -fashioned and believe in honesty too, and it will prevail. If we can't sell the books we put our hearts and souls into, how can children and consenting adults know that honesty is alive and well? We are the ones who have the chance to change this greedy, crooked world. We have to persist, why not, PA is.

Fran

Re: PA woes

dear Fran;

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what writing group were you in that recommended PA to you? Was it an organization with a name, or just a group at a local library?

There's plenty of PAvidians out there who keep on bringing new meat into the PublishAmerica pyramid scheme, I'm sorry to say... I only hope that your experience has put others off of it from the same group.

good luck in the future!

well,

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> am a businessman of 25 years <hr></blockquote>

So you are what--maybe 40 or 45? I fit in that age bracket.

You are not too old to learn the ropes--the ropes are pretty easy. But they do take time to navigate. Keep writing and when you finish the next book go the traditional way.

Shawn

Odd about PA books and authors

I went to amazon.com, hit books, hit advanced research, put PublishAmerica in the publishers box, then searched.

3,085 books are listed. BUT they say they have 8000 authors, which means more than half are in the pipeline waiting to be published. 0r more than half are out of print or some combination thereof. I would believe it's the former - the authors are waiting to have their books published.

I then sorted by publication date and went to the 117 May releases. 60% have no cover image loaded. Only one has any description. Uploading the cover and book description is the publisher's responsibility and is basic 101 marketing. But PA doesn't do it in a timely fashion. Covers sells books and yet 60% of their May titles don't have covers.

15 of the authors in May had published another title, but only one was not PA or another POD publisher. So nearly 90% of the authors are first time authors. That means authors who don't have experience with the publishng process or what to expect. I don't know of any other traditional publishing house (as they so loosely define themselves) that has only first time authors. Do they want only first time authors?

Only 21 of the books had any ranking at amazon.com which means only 21 had any sales through amazon.com. These are brand new releases and only 21 titles had sales.

In an email that PublishAmerica sent me they state in separate paragraphs contradictory information. In one paragraph they state "soon we will sell our one millionith book" in another paragraph they state. "In the past two years we have sold more than a quarter of a million books," So when did the other 750,000 books sell?

At 250,000 total books sold divided by the 3,085 titles on amazon.com that means an average of 85 books per title sold. Being generous and using the 1 million books sold that's still only 340 per title.

What bothers me the most about this information is that they seem to be recruiting naive authors. What business model would only want first time authors and generate average sales of only 85 to 340 sales per title?

Curious.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com

Re: Odd about PA books and authors

What bothers me the most about this information is that they seem to be recruiting naive authors. What business model would only want first time authors and generate average sales of only 85 to 340 sales per title?

The vanity press business model.

BTW, based on other sources and other information, I believe that the actual average sales are around 75/title.

Even if I'm 100% off, and average sales are 150/title, that's still pathetic.

PA prices its books $5 above the price of similar books printed using identical technology. That's the vanity-press fee, hidden in the cover price. The author, and the author's family and friends, are still paying to be published, but they're doing it on the installment plan.

PA knows that authors love their books, and will do anything to sell them. They know that they don't need to require authors to buy a certain number of books -- authors will buy them without being told to. $5 * 75 is a $375 vanity fee -- perfectly in line with Xlibris, iUniverse, AuthorHouse, and all the rest of the PoD vanities.

Re: Odd about PA books and authors

Dee, PA also publishes under "AmErica House" and a couple other names left over from previous incarnations.

CAO

Re: The book in question

<post deleted by mod>

(Please, no personal attacks/humiliation of authors here.)

Re: The book in question

Yup, that's the one I was thinking of. Stunning, isn't it?

CAO

Re: The book in question

wow... I am truly speechless...

gee, I wonder if PA has a good set of lawyers on call? Betcha Mr. Bloom's lawyers might have something to say about that wonderful cover...

*chuckles*

Re: The book in question

It will be interesting to see how PublishAmerica explains away this "oversight" on their part regarding copyright and Mr. Bloom's photo as I simply find it very difficult to believe that they would actually pay a licensing fee. After all, that would cut into their profits.

I wonder whether they'll accept the responsibility or state that the author produced the cover?