Hypothetical Church and State Question

Contemplative

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To be clear, I don't think Satanists should be able to desecrate Christian churches. I do think there is a valid spiritual meaning to some Satanic desecration-style ceremonies -- it's a ritualized rebellion against dogma and a refusal to embrace or tolerate the cultic awe they feel mainstream religion tries to inspire -- but their faith's rights end where the Christians' buildings begin.

My point was that the state cannot be allowed to privilege one ideology or faith over another in its official policy.

I'm not against the idea that Christianity is one of our social norms. I think that's fine, and part of our heritage, for the same reason that I think a heteronormative society can also be a gay-friendly one.

But this is about the state actually funding a historic church, and then having to decide between engaging in religious discrimination or allowing the desecration and thereby destroying the value of the thing they're paying for (because really, a church has absolutely no value beyond its quality of sacredness in the eyes of the faithful who gather there, save the real estate value a plain building of its type would have -- and the government isn't trying to preserve that.)
 

Williebee

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ut this is about the state actually funding a historic church, and then having to decide between engaging in religious discrimination or allowing the desecration and thereby destroying the value of the thing they're paying for (because really, a church has absolutely no value beyond its quality of sacredness in the eyes of the faithful who gather there, save the real estate value a plain building of its type would have -- and the government isn't trying to preserve that.)

This brings up an interesting point that was... assumed, I guess. The idea that there is anything to desecrate. The building was moved. The original site was not. Would the building still be sacred? If not, did the city allow anyone in to re-consecrate or sanctify it after the move?
 

Plot Device

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A friend of mine got married in a very old and very cute church building in Upstate New York (I was a bridesmaid btw) which used to be a Quaker meeting house about 150 years ago. The deed of the building --a deed dating back 150 years-- specifically mandated that no musical instruments were to be used inside the building. So to this day that church only sings a capella music. So when she got married, they used the church's sound system to amplify a pre-recorded music tape of organ music performing the Pachelbel Canon in D. I asked her if it was possible for a lawsuit to be launched to overturn that aspect of the deed and finally allow actual instruments. She shrugged and said no one cared because no one in that church even wanted musiscal instruments and preferred the a capella style. MAYBE if a lawsuit were launched it could be overturned, but such a move hasn't been tested yet (at least not in THAT church).

I would think that if the deed of this government-owned church building specifically forbade several very clearly delineated activities, they could legally prevent a Satanic group from doing anything weird in the building, regardless as to whether it's private or government owned. Also, if the building was ONLY available to the public for "weddings and funerals" then a "desecration ceremony" doesn't seem to fit the bill of what is allowable.

Meanwhile, a lot of very picturesque churches in very picturesque locales all over the world are constantly bombarded with requests from total strangers to lease their buildings for weddings. But in order to avoid weirdness and conflicts, these churches blanketly deny weddings to anyone who is not a church member.
 
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Summonere

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The township may own the building (in this case, a church) but mere ownership does not allow it to infringe upon the exercise of any right therein, as it would were it to allow one group to meet in said building but not another.

Township ownership of a church does not constitute law-making, and therefore is permissible. That's why the following...

I can understand the state [sic] owning and maintaining certain churches of historical value, but I fail to see why it should be able to respect an establishment of religion.

The township in question is on shaky ground. By maintaining the property as a religious facility, they're giving state approval to the religion(s) in question.

...are incorrect.

Quoting the relevant portion of the first amendment, bolding the most pertinent part for redundancy's sake:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Since this is the law of the land, townships are not at liberty to contravene it. That which they do that does not make such law is okay. Even if that means owning a building which happens to be a church.

Thus your hypothetical would have to be allowed in case X if it were allowed in case Y. A township-owned building is merely a township-owned building, and as such remains available to all who wish to visit, no matter the historical status of the building.

As a source of dramatic conflict, yours seems like an excellent idea.

(My study of law was only ancillary to my primary studies, which covered a very limited spectrum of law, so this opinion, not even a legal one, isn't worth a jellybean.)
 
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Contemplative

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I would think that if the deed of this government-owned church building specifically forbade several very clearly delineated activities, they could legally prevent a Satanic group from doing anything weird in the building, regardless as to whether it's private or government owned. Also, if the building was ONLY available to the public for "weddings and funerals" then a "desecration ceremony" doesn't seem to fit the bill of what is allowable.

Isn't this pretty much the textbook definition of institutional discrimination? Making laws targeting one group implicitly instead of textually, to persecute that group? The same argument has been made with regard to blacks and Marajuana legalization -- many stronger drugs that are European cultural traditions rather than African ones are legal, so (some people believe) the war on drugs can be seen as racial discrimination.

I have faith in Satanists to host a wedding in a church in such a matter that Christians would feel the church had been desecrated anyway, all while staying within the letter of the law.
 

benbradley

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Shouldn't this be in the story research forum? A mod can kick it over to TIO when it REALLY heats up! :D
Yeah, I'm in one of my sinister/mischevious moods today. I thought of this a few days ago. In the township where I live they moved all the inconveniently placed (i.e from a development POV) historic buildings to one spot, now called "Olde Stone House Village". There's an old house from the 1750's, an old post office, other old structures including an old church. The township owns the property. They allow people to arrange to use the church for religous ceremonies like weddings.

What, exactly, could they do, if, say, a Satanist requested to use the church for a nice little desecration ceremony? Nothing would be damaged. The Satanists would be respectful of the township's property. Could they prevent the Satanists from using the church? I almost wish I was a Satanist just to see the hubbub. Well, no, I really don't wish I was a Satanist, but I wish I knew some willing to try to use the church.

Interesting? Stupid? What have I been smoking? (nothing, I'm at work). What do you think? I may try to squeeze this into a novel I'm working on.
Yes, Satanists or even secular groups should be able to rent and use the building for their purposes, consistent with not causing physical damage.

Some sort of spiritual "desecration" would only be a problem for one of the other groups renting the facility (I won't call it a church at this point - it's only a church while Christians hold a service in it, and it's only a synagogue when it's holding a Jewish service, etc.). The local government officials, IF they're properly doing their job (which might be a plot point...), should rent to the Satanist group without batting an eye. It might then be the Christian group that gets upset when they hear about this other use of the facility. You then have the problem of "spiritual desecration" which the government cannot by law recognize. The Christian group can object and complain, but their only real recourse is to grin and bear it, or find another place to have services.
I, also, know very little about Satanism, so for the sake of argument, I'm assuming that the desecration will in no way physically damage the property. I don't even know if real Satanists have desecration ceremonies, but it sounds like something one would think a Satanist would do.
In spite of growing up in a Baptist church, I don't have enough enough knowledge of Christianity to say, but I would imagine they would consider a Satanic group meeting at the same facility to be enough of a desecration.
Well, darn it, in my novel, they'll do desecrations, whether they like it or not.

The township in question is on shaky ground. By maintaining the property as a religious facility, they're giving state approval to the religion(s) in question.

Even if they don't discriminate based on the religion of the person using the facility, and even if the facility has no outward appearances of being a particular denomination's building (say it has generic kaleidoscope stained glass windows and no steeple), the moment they allow state sanctioned use by some parties, they've just made the state disregard the beliefs of another group.

In certain cases, worship services can't be held in sites used by other religions.
It would then be the potential renters' responsibility to see who else rents (or has rented), and decide if it's within their beliefs to have services there. I presume the names of the groups renting there would be public knowledge.

By getting the state involved in it at all, they've - by default - alienated a segment of the population with state funds on a religious basis.
This might make an interesting case to take to the Supreme Court, but in my view it's the responsibility of the potential renters to evaluate the suitability of a facility for their purposes. I don't see how the government could be held liable if some previous use of the facility is deemed "incompatible" with the religious beliefs of a potential renter.

But I can see a possible result that due to such a disagreement, the local government makes a rule that the facility cannot be rented for religious services, but I'm not sure that would be legal.
And say three couples wanted to use the facility at the same time. Is it first come, first serve, or would a church wedding, a secular wedding and a hand fasting be given the same consideration?
My understanding is facility rentals, public or private, are always first come, first served.
I consider it a hate crime, and I would think it would be treated accordingly, along with cruelty to animals.
So an animal sacrifice in a religious service would have twice the sentence of a "regular" cruelty-to-animals charge?
 
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Bird of Prey

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So an animal sacrifice in a religious service would have twice the sentence of a "regular" cruelty-to-animals charge?

As far as I'm concerned, life imprisonment.
 

frimble3

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If the township 'bought' the church, either someone sold it, or it was abandoned. If it's original congregation had wanted it to remain a church of their faith, they should have hung onto it. As far as I can see, it's now just a church-shaped building, like those quaint, secular 'chapels' some places build just for the wedding trade. Doesn't the abandoning denomination usually deconsecrate the church when they leave, turning out the spiritual lights? Esp. as they will no longer be around to see that it's appropriately tended?
 

Andrew

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The building should be available for any group.