Wandering Sage Publications (formerly Emerald Falcon Press)

priceless1 · Feb 6, 2009

Michael said:
it's obvious that these guys are vultures. They're picking at every little thing and you don't know the correct answers to everything, so it might be best if you step aside and wait for Dave.

Vultures? Come on, now. John's knowledge base is selective at best. He knows all the inner workings of many things, but remains conveniently ignorant of some of the most basic aspects of the company. It doesn't add up. And when things don't add up, there are going to be questions.

but others seem quite confrontational ... as if they're trying to get a rise out of you. They may say that because I'm new to this and inexperienced that I should take into account their more experienced opinions, but I know an Inquisition when I see one.

I guess this is a matter of perspective. When someone new is discussed on the board, it's natural to have their feet held to the fire. It's a bewares board, meaning that this is done to protect and educate authors. What is the problem in this? We continue to ask tough questions because we're not getting the answers - like who is this elusive distributor John eludes to? This is an important factor for authors.

And yes, Michael, it makes good sense to take into account those who have been knocking around the industry for a while, but this is, in no way, an inquisition. It's an attempt to find out who WS is. And where is this Dave?

To my mind, it bodes well that you are willing to come here and submit to this torture.

I agree that he's a sport to come here and answer questions. I know that my tech guru would rather eat razorblades than come here. And why should she? She doesn't speak for us.

Michael · Feb 6, 2009

Michael said:
The thing is, I am taking their opinions into account; I am reluctant to submit anything to Wandering Sage until I know for sure the company knows what it's doing...

Priceless1, it just seems to me that constructive criticism isn't usually presented this way. But from what I can see, you are in a good position to offer this kind of information (Behler Publications), so I definitely respect what you have to say.

And I understand that your intentions are good ... "to protect and educate authors" ... something I can appreciate very much. If it weren't for boards like this, I could be in serious trouble by now. Still, who watches the watchers?

Like I said, you all have legitimate concerns. It's how they're presented that has me a little confused.

M.R.J. Le Blanc · Feb 6, 2009

John Dexheimer said:
Okay, I'll comment on this, cause you make a good point.

Let me ask you a question, what about the authors that cannot get their own agent?

We have a few authors that DO have their own agent that work FOR them. But, for those new authors out there, that are publishing their first book, that a normal agent would look at, scoff at, and say "Go away, you're not worth my time." Those are the authors our agents help.

An author wants to get their own agent, they have the power and writing or artistic talent where they can do that, we wont stop them. You can have your own agent, but if you don't, and you're willing to work hard, and promote yourself to get your foot in the door, we will help you, that is the purpose of our agents.

Is that wrong of us?

Yes it is.

If every single agent in my chosen genre rejected me, it means there's something wrong with my ms. Either it's not ready for publication or there's just no market for it. That's just a fact of life. But I've said it before and I'll say it again - an agent working for a publisher is NOT working for my best interests.

Sheryl Nantus · Feb 6, 2009

Michael said:
Like I said, you all have legitimate concerns. It's how they're presented that has me a little confused.

I asked a legitmate question. Among others.

I got a rude answer. Aside from not being informative it also ignores the question of HOW these books get into bookstores and onto shelves.

And, again, until Dave makes an appearance and displays his amazing knowledge of publishing, economics and how the world works it seems that WS is not the place to go if you want to see your book on the shelf at your local bookstore. And keep your money in your wallet.

We've seen this sort of business model before. Heck, I got caught up in one myself. It's nothing more than a way to keep the author on the hook by making their limited success directly tied to the number of books they buy.

You don't need an agent to "book" you into conventions. You *do* need to purchase a booth and then buy copies from your publisher for resale, hopefully at a price that you can make money at. Money which many authors don't have, most of the time.

Any publisher that has no way of getting the word out about their books other than through the author is going to depend on that author to stay afloat. That and selling trinkets, obviously.

victoriastrauss · Feb 6, 2009

John Dexheimer said:
I've herd everyone her knock on POD... do this little experiment, call a "BIG" time publishing, for real, pick up the phone and this not once, twice, but four or five times, call big the big time and million dollar publishing houses. Say "I am a small press, and I was looking to know what kind of printing do you do?" and you know what they will tell you... POD. If you call up and say you're an author, you will get a different response.

Don't tell me "No I won't." either, because I said the same thing to Dave when he told me that. I said to him "What? You're full of it!" And so on speaker phone we made a few calls, and it was proven to me at that time, that even the BIG HOUSE publishers, while they tell you "Nooo, we don't use POD, that's bad, we're so much better than that!" to save costs and money and storage fees, that is EXACTLY what they do now, because they are not STUPID!

Digital technology (a.k.a. print on demand) ceases to be cost-effective at (I believe) runs of around 1,000 copies. Above that, economies of scale make offset far less expensive. So while it's true that the big publishers use digital technology, they do so selectively--for ARCs sent out ahead of publication, and to keep slower-selling backlist books in print. For frontlist titles, they use offset.

Many smaller publishers use a hybrid model, mixing digital and offset technology--for instance, an initial large print run done offset, and digital for reprints.

Because digital technology is not cost-effective for large print runs, when a publisher uses digital technology exclusively it's a marker for smaller print runs, which in turn is a marker for limited distribution and marketing. Conversely, commercial success will push a publisher away from exclusive reliance on digital technology, because with bigger numbers, offset is cheaper.

John, I'm curious about your agents--what exactly do they do?

- Victoria

Michael · Feb 6, 2009

Sheryl Nantus said:
I asked a legitmate question. Among others.

I got a rude answer.

Yes, you did ask a legitimate question - as I said. On the other hand, I have read John's posts and I can't find anything "rude" in them. It's true that he isn't answering the questions satisfactorily but, as far as I can tell, he has been polite. I understand that being polite doesn't change the fact that he isn't providing the answers.

Sheryl Nantus said:
And, again, until Dave makes an appearance and displays his amazing knowledge of publishing, economics and how the world works it seems that WS is not the place to go if you want to see your book on the shelf at your local bookstore. And keep your money in your wallet.

I agree, of course, as I said.

JulieB · Feb 6, 2009

Sheryl Nantus said:
You don't need an agent to "book" you into conventions. You *do* need to purchase a booth and then buy copies from your publisher for resale, hopefully at a price that you can make money at. Money which many authors don't have, most of the time.

I've asked him upthread if he had agent and publicist confused, and he hasn't returned. Until then, I'll give him the benefit of a doubt.

He's talking about booking authors into SF conventions, which is different. Each convention has different criteria for author guests, but they shouldn't have to buy books to bring. If the publisher has distribution and offers a decent discount and return policy, then dealers will buy the books to stock at their tables. People buy books from the dealers (or bring 'em along with them) and have the author sign at the convention. The dealers make money, and the publisher and author get sales. Good for all!

Usually the authors take care of booking themselves at conventions, but it's not unheard of for small publishers to help their authors out in this way.

Michael · Feb 6, 2009

JulieB said:
He's talking about booking authors into SF conventions, which is different. Each convention has different criteria for author guests, but they shouldn't have to buy books to bring. If the publisher has distribution and offers a decent discount and return policy, then dealers will buy the books to stock at their tables. People buy books from the dealers (or bring 'em along with them) and have the author sign at the convention. The dealers make money, and the publisher and author get sales. Good for all!

Yeah, I talked to someone at Chronicles who has a small press in the UK. This was what he told me.

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 6, 2009

John Dexheimer said:
We at one point had tried to get an author's book submitted to Opera... what her producers told us is "Send us $5000 and we'll consider it!"

John, please understand that this is trade libel, and potentially actionable, unless you can prove that it is true. I have been involved with the publishing industry for many, many years, and I have never heard an accusation that anyone at Harpo Productions took any kind of payola. That doesn't even make any sense, considering how much money Harpo Productions makes from its television properties.

If you got suckered by someone who presented themselves as a book publicist and told you that for $5000 they could get your writer's book on Oprah, that person was ripping you off and had no ability to deliver. That's not how the selection process works on Oprah.

Anna Magdalena · Feb 6, 2009

If the representative did say this, could it have, perhaps been a joke? After all, the TV company must get hundreds, nay thousands, of small publishers contacting them and someone might have been getting a bit, um, fed up with fending them all off?

Just a thought.

Gillhoughly · Feb 6, 2009

Seriously stop knocking POD, it's not something bad, it's awesome, it's great, and and it's what 97% of the industry uses now, even if they will bold face lie to you can tell you they don't.

Could you please cite your source for that statistic?

veinglory · Feb 6, 2009

Who is knocking POD per se? I love POD, nothing that looked red and flaggy here to me was related to POD versus offset. I use a POD press myself. It is certainly not what 97% of the undustry uses unless mean mean by percebtage of titles, including self-publishing. (c.f. % of volume of turnover, sales or profit).

Michael · Feb 6, 2009

Okay, now I'm more confused. Libel? I hope not. And 97%? This much I know, because I did some research on the subject a while back: With large print runs, offset becomes much less expensive than POD. I received quotes from five different printers, and the highest cost (of those five quotes) for an offset run of 1500 was about $4.00 a copy, as compared to about $8.00 a copy POD.

Why would the big publishers print most of their books on demand when offset is cheaper? John, are you sure you have this right? Because it really doesn't make sense.

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 6, 2009

Michael said:
Okay, now I'm more confused. Libel? I hope not.

Saying that Oprah's producers charge publishers money to consider their books seems awfully like trade libel to me--smacks of payola a la the 1950s scandal. I have never heard any such rumor before, either.

Why would the big publishers print most of their books on demand when offset is cheaper?

They don't. Again, people who work in publishing know this isn't true.

John, are you sure you have this right? Because it really doesn't make sense.

I have no idea where John is getting this misinformation, but it really doesn't behoove him to keep spreading it.

Anna Magdalena · Feb 7, 2009

Why are some people here confused about the difference in costs between POD and off-set printing? It's a sliding scale: publishers with huge print runs use off-set. Small publishers who only sell in hundreds find POD cheaper.

Victoria Strauss explained it clearly in #130. It made sense to me.

If John can tell us who he spoke to at Oprah's company and told him that they required a big bung, he should go public. This is of huge interest. But if he has no evidence then he should stop right now. What he is saying is indeed libel.

People who muddy the waters usually do so because they've something to hide. (or don't know what the heck they're talking about.)

Michael · Feb 8, 2009

Okay. Thanks for keeping me straight, everyone. I think I'll stop wasting your time ... for a while, at least...

I've learned quite a bit by following this thread.

J.D.74 · Feb 8, 2009

JulieB said:
John,

Perhaps you mean "publicist" instead of "agent?"

That very well may be, I'll have to write that down for Dave. They got "agent" from the unfinished website. So I'll double check on that and get back to you.

Thanks.

J.D.74 · Feb 8, 2009

priceless1 said:
As much inside information as you appear to possess about WS, I can't believe you wouldn't know whether you have sales teams.

I'm sorry it's so hard to believe that I don't know every last detail about what goes on with the publishing, but it does interest me, and that is why Dave teaches me what he can, when he can. Then on top of that I have the technology side of the company to take care of on top of learning how all the publishing works.

So I do admit to not knowing everything, if you hold that expectation of me *shrug* sorry to disappoint.

priceless1 · Feb 8, 2009

John Dexheimer said:
I'm sorry it's so hard to believe that I don't know every last detail about what goes on with the publishing, but it does interest me, and that is why Dave teaches me what he can, when he can. Then on top of that I have the technology side of the company to take care of on top of learning how all the publishing works.

So I do admit to not knowing everything, if you hold that expectation of me *shrug* sorry to disappoint.

Well, John, for crying out loud; it's a simple question: "Dave, who distributes our books?" If he says Ingram and B&T, then I know that you lack distribution. If Dave says, "Why, IPG/Consortium/ Midpoint/BluSky, etc., of course," then I would see that you do, in fact, have a sales team repping your titles to the genre buyers. I have my doubts because that information is lacking in iPage.

You keep saying that you only deal with the technology side of the company and lack all the pertinent information, yet you manage to inject yourself into quite detailed conversations regarding Oprah, POD vs. digital printing. You can't have it both ways. You should either limit yourself to the tech questions or bring someone in who can answer our questions. But you can't share all kinds of intricate details then run and plead, "I'm just the tech guy," when asked the simplest question of all. Makes no sense.

J.D.74 · Feb 8, 2009

priceless1 said:
John's knowledge base is selective at best.

You're right, and I've admitted that. I'd like to be able to answer all your questions on the publishing front, I just can't right now. All I can do is apologize for my ignorance on a few "KEY" areas of knowledge. For the questions I cannot answer here, I write down on a list and make a point to be educated on the next time I sit down and have a meeting with Dave.

I wish he could find the time to come here and write directly to everyone too. To fill in the blanks that I leave for you.

priceless1;325783It's a bewares board said:
There is nothing wrong with that pursuit in my opinion. But there are times even for me, that with the way some people "ask" their questions, it seems like more of an 'attack' than an inquiry. But I try to see past that and believe that at heart, everyone asking questions is really trying to find out how we work, and not cut us down.

That WAS my big concern when coming on this board and deciding to write on this thread with it's location on the forum, that concern of mine was put at ease a while ago. Wandering Sage is a good company with hard working people in it, none of us are perfect, and our way of doing business might not be exactly what you're looking for, but it is still our duty to explain how we operate.

There is no problem asking hard questions, go ahead and ask them. If you get an answer that you do not like, as I'm sure you all have, okay. We cannot please everyone. But what I tell you is the truth, and what I do not know, I do not attempt to BS my way though, I tell you "I don't know."

For the record, I'm not just a "Tech guy" I'm President of Wandering Sage Technologies. Yes I am a techie, my knowledge of computer, networks, software, and hardware is extensive, but I do find interest in publishing, and that is why I choose to work with Dave and Wandering Sage, so I can learn about it while I do other technical jobs for the company. 10 years down the line, I may say to heck with computers, and just do the publishing work that Dave already does, it's possible. But I have to start somewhere, and right now I do not know everything, or even most, of what you would expect from a seasoned publisher.

priceless1 said:

I know that my tech guru would rather eat razorblades than come here.

Click to expand...

HA! Well I don't think it matters if you're a tech or not, I think what matters in that aspect is how well you can work with the public and people. I've always been good working with people, especially when it's face to face, going through mediums like this can get a little dicey.

If I may get off the topic of Wandering Sage for just a moment, I'll tell you about one of the things that I came across in my life that really changed how I looked at customers and clients, and people in general, and most importantly how to treat them.

This is one my favorite books, I came across it like 6 or 7 years ago, it's by Jeffrey Gitomer, and it's titled "Customer Satisfaction is WORTHLESS, Customer Loyalty is PRICELESS" How to make customers love you, keep them coming back, and tell everyone they know you. This book to me is the holly bible of customer service. It's fun to read, and very enlightening. Anyone that works for me, is required to read that book before I'll even let them talk to any of my customers.

I think the most important principle that book taught me, is when you're dealing with someone, rather they walk through your door, and email you out of the blue, you're being given a "Chance and Opportunity" to turn that person into a "Loyal" customer. That is how I view everyone anymore. Everyone asking questions on this board, I see the C&O to make you loyal Wandering Sage clients. So I'm going to try my VERY best to make that happen.

If it doesn't, then I've lost nothing but a little time and effort, but if I get just one person from this forum to say "Hey, Wandering Sage doesn't sound so bad, let me give them a shot." then I've made my goal and I'm a happy camper.

I don't mind the questions, or even the way they are asked sometimes. I try my best to answer them, that's all I can do right now.

M.R.J. Le Blanc · Feb 8, 2009

But to be honest John, your company DOES sound bad. Not because of malicious acts, because I don't see that, but for the simple fact DAVE DOES NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE. I don't care how much determination he has or how much good intentions - the fact remains until proven otherwise that Wandering Sage Books has no distribution legit publishers have, and has no idea how to determine a good saleable manuscript from a not-so-good one. And employing agents to rep writers if they don't have their own? Come on, there's a very good reason real publishers don't do that. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's innovative or thinking outside the box. It's not a smart move.

There's a saying: having no agent is better than having an inexprienced one. I'd like to add another: having no publisher is better than having an inexperienced one.

J.D.74 · Feb 8, 2009

Final Post.

Hey everyone, while going through the tread today and trying to keep up with everyone everyone has posted recently, it just seems to me more and more that, no matter what I say, it's just going to be good enough. With my lack of in-depth knowledge on publishing, I think maybe I made the mistake of "trying" to answer your questions in the first place.

I just got off the phone with Dave, and told him that I'm no longer going to be coming to this thread. So he can come on here when he's ready to resolve any outstanding questions I've not been able to answer.

I will say this, the time I have spent here has been quite challenging, and even fun, because I personally love to debate. But there comes a point in any debate when it must end. I'm happy with the fact that some of you all have said openly that you do not believe Wandering Sage is a scam. That was my BIG goal, I feel that is no longer an issue.

Dave said he will try to come on here later tonight once he gets home. He has been reading through this thread every few days and catching up when he can. So look forward for him to coming here.

I've tried my best to explain things to you from my understanding, I may have been off the mark on a few things, or maybe misunderstood how certain things works, but I stand by my statement that everything I've said has been accurate to my own knowledge.

Thank you for having me here and for the vigorous debate. I wish all of you the best of luck with your writings, and I hope you find fame and glory out there.

Goodbye.

John

---------------
My new favorite quote, for myself.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Abraham Lincoln

priceless1 · Feb 8, 2009

John Dexheimer said:
But there are times even for me, that with the way some people "ask" their questions, it seems like more of an 'attack' than an inquiry.

John, when people have to ask the same question several times and get the run around, as I felt we did with your explanation of distribution, then, yes, the questions become a bit more direct. I asked a simple question, and here is what we got:

but when I did mention to him the question about the distributors, he had a funny/confused look on his face when I told him that about the CaoPaux saying Baker & Taylor and Ingrams are not distributors. He said the yes they are. But again, I cannot answer those questions. If you have a technical question, no problem, but questions like that are best answered by him.

and this:

Also on the note of answering the questions about distributors, I mentioned the thread to Dave the other day as a reminder, with everything he is doing it continues to slip his mind.

This is not a technical question. It took longer for you to find out about the Oprah thing or to be "educated" on how big publishers use digital printing - than it would have been to ask who distributes your books. Yet you continually dodge the question. Your avoidance speaks volumes. So until the very busy Dave enters into this discussion, I see little point in pursuing the subject.

Dave said he will try to come on here later tonight once he gets home. He has been reading through this thread every few days and catching up when he can.

Hold the phone; he can read through this thread but not come here and answer basic questions? I find that...odd. John, you've been a good sport, but the facts are that you were the wrong spokesperson from the very beginning. No one ever insinuated you were a scam, but we did have questions. Simple, basic questions that don't take a lot of thought or research. And I would think anyone concerned about presenting themselves in the right light would ensure they have the right person answering the questions.

Anna Magdalena · Feb 8, 2009

This 'I'm just the techie guy' is wearing more than a bit thin, John. If you don't know anything about publishing why did you choose to come on her and give us all the run around? It's like my going on a TV sports channel to answer questions on the finer points of baseball. If Dave can read this thread but can't somehow manage to answer answer the questions you can't and then leaves you to make it up as you go along then I reckon your job title shouldn't be President of Wandering Sage Technologies but Resident Sock Puppet. And we meet a lot of those guys here.

Shadows Rising · Feb 8, 2009

I read through this and wasn't going to say anything, but just wow, you people are really rude. Find something better to do with you lives.

Good bye.

PS: Go ahead and tear me down the same way you do everyone. But it really just shows how pathetic you are.

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