The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

That PA response about mocking reminds me of Major Frank Burns in the old M*A*S*H series.

T42, when you take the PA tour...

bring those brownies with you and offer them to the poor spellcheckers lashed to their desks!
Why the heck would they send you a scathing letter, whump you and your lawyer upside the head with a stupid stick, and then invite you graciously into the Lair!

Sounds like a bit of cut and paste going on in their collection of canned correspondences. They got two letters smushed into one!
Wouldn't it be funny of someone took them up on their offer and DID visit them with their lawyer in tow?

aka eraser said:

Nicole posted:

I don't think Jenna wants yet another PA thread on the go. PA authors have always been welcome here, whether to laud their publisher or bemoan it. At least a few of the former group have posted here over the last couple of years.
I wouldn't expect an influx of happy PA authors even if a special thread was created. They would, quite rightly, expect counter-arguments to their position and before you know it we'd be "taking it outside" (where the dedicated thread-hunter will find earlier, similar posts).

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I agree with what you said Eraser.

The separate thread idea might start some sort of separation, making it an "us" and "them" type thing anyway. Plus there are already PA authors here now. I am an ex-PA author. I think another thread would result in a calling you out sorta feel. This is about PA, not their writers.

Ed, goodluck on your show!

Diana, you sound like you've been busy as hell! I hope you get to feeling better. I think it was your response to PA authors about getting rights back and/or moving on..that single piece of advice was given to me not too long ago and was the best advice I'd received in a long time. So thanks for saying that it reminded me and hopefully will encourage others to move on as well.

T42, that letter is as everyone said a typical canned copy and paste response. It's sad to see that PA continues on their road of stupidity where it seems they become more so, everyday. Hang in there!

T42

Nice email. If you look back through the boards I think you will find similar emails were sent to other "malcontents." When will they get new material?
I will say though, that they never invited me to visit so I'm a bit jealous of you. Do you think PA will let me and my trusty digital camera tour with you?


~Kate

PixelFish said:

Quote:
Clopper said many mainstream publishers similarly do not read the entire manuscript before making an offer of publication.

I do not believe that. Not for one stinkin' minute.


....

You should check out John Scalzi's thread on the subject:


http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003418.html

To quote:

1. Clopper's contention that publishers make offers on completely unknown first-time fiction authors before reading an entire manuscript is appallingly wrong; either Clopper knows this, and is lying through his teeth, or he doesn't know this, and he's a monumental incompetent. It is true that publishers of fiction will ask that initial submissions consist of, say, three chapters rather than an entire manuscript. But the point of that is that if they like the three chapters, they will ask for the rest of the manuscript. You know, to read. Then and only then will they take a chance on a completely unknown first-time fiction writer.

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What I meant, Pixel, is that Mr. Clopper may delude himself into thinking mainstream publishers don't read the entire work, but that is wrong, wrong, wrong, and a true affront.

DaveKuzminski said:

That PA response about mocking reminds me of Major Frank Burns in the old M*A*S*H series.

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Or Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "Begone, before I taunt you a second time."

- Victoria

keltora said:

That, or someone finds sufficient numbers of photos of Larry with his pants down (in the figurative sense--no, not the literal, oh, no, Not That!!!!!!).

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Nooooooo! Don't wanna even think of pantless Clopper....:Smack:
Some things are not EVER meant to be witnessed!


Jenn

A portion of an email....

....I received from someone today who reads this thread:

I don't have a "dog in this fight." I was never a fan of TV
soap operas, but this one is fascinating because it's real, and there is a
real villain involved. I am also learning a surprising amount about (real)
publishing by reading this forum.

I wonder if the forum regulars realize how much attention _Atlanta Nights_
has generated. This is being discussed on two of the handful of e-mail
lists I'm on; the SMOFS science fiction convention runners' list, and my
own local science fiction club's list, for the Kansas City Science Fiction
and Fantasy Society. If this is any indication, there may be hundreds --
or possibly even thousands -- of other lists and blogs out there also
talking about it.

Anyway, keep up the good work, you guys are our heroes! Feel free to copy
any or all of this post to the forum if you like.

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Folks, not a whole lot I can add to this, we just need to keep pressing forward. I agree with Frank, we may not have sunk the great and mighty pirate ship yet, but there are definitely some holes under the waterline...

Check this forum out from the Frederick News Post re Larry Clopper...

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=4488

Seems that the local populace is not overly fond of their favorite son...

Acknowledgement and Clarifications

Renee Bagley said:

The separate thread idea might start some sort of separation, making it an "us" and "them" type thing anyway. Plus there are already PA authors here now. I am an ex-PA author. I think another thread would result in a calling you out sorta feel. This is about PA, not their writers.

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Heard, and respected. I will not start the proposed thread here.

But.

1) No one still defending PA is going to jump into a thread of 200+ pages (or 300+, depending on your posts-per-page count) which are 99.89% anti-PA. PA authors in this thread tend to be of the "ex" variety.

2) The point of the proposed exercise is to get those PA Authors that are still defending PA (in other words, not ex-PA authors) to join in a conversation with those who don't like PA. The Still-Defending Authors would indeed jump in intending to "call us out." That's the "bait," if you will.

3) I am not trying to make it about the authors. (At least, no more than anyone else is; we are all trying to get information out to the authors, which could be said to be an "about the authors" strategy.) What I want to do is address one of the problems of the publisher: The disturbing, cult-like manner in which PA encourages its still-happy authors to keep their discussions exclusively to the PA forums, where PA can control the information. I suggest that the solution to that problem is to provide a place for discussion that is not under PA's thumb, that is inviting enough to pro-PA authors that they'd join in, and that brings "them" into contact with "us" in a peaceful and informative way that hopefully stands a chance at breaking down the "them vs us" illusion.

Obviously such a place would have to be a) not at AbsoluteWrite.com, respecting everything Victoria and aka eraser have said, and b) heavily moderated to maintain the Q&A format and the respectful atmosphere.

If a moderator could be found (and if I have to, you're looking at her), where, I wonder, would an appropriate place for this hypothetical environment? I've actually got phpBB capability at littlebull.com, but maybe there's someplace more public where this experiment could be run?

In the meantime, some PA authors have formed an agency called Title Wave Management and are agenting poetry and other books. I've written to them asking for guidelines and costs. They boast of a sale already to PA.

Lo and behold, here's their response:

The base fee is $300. That covers a minium pitch to at least 5 publishing
houses/presses a month. 12 pitches amonth costs $600, and it goes on from there
depending on how aggresive you wish us to promote. Even though it covers a
certain amount of pitches a month, we pitch that amount every month until your
manuscript is published. So if you wish to do the 5 pitches a month for $300, it
can easilly add up to over 20 pitches in four months, and it doesn't cost
anymore. It all depends on what your needs are. Some of our writers just choose
to opt for the cheapest plan, the $300, and so far that's worked out great for
them. The average turn around time for a publishing deal so far has been 2-6
months.

If you wish to submit a manuscript to us for review, please email back the title
of your manuscript and what genre it's in so that we can add you to our review
list. Then we'll email you back with the address and submission guidleines for
your manuscript.

Keep writing,

Jason Sheets

Hey PA, since you will probably read this:

I am NOT a happy PA author, so that lowers your number to 10,999!! Also, there are several others and I'm quite sure the 11,000 to which you refer, is completely false.

Addendum.

victoriastrauss said:

...and simply make room for everyone here.

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I don't want to discount what Victoria says here. So here's a question: What will it take for pro-PA authors to feel welcomed, comfortable, etc. posting on this thread? How do we get them that need the information to willingly start lurking and maybe even posting on this thread that they feel (albeit incorrectly) is just full of clueless bashing?

(No, I'm not going to do a SimonSays reprise. That was SimonSays, right? With the "stop being so insulting" dead horse? No, really, though. The above paragraph is not a rhetorical question. I really want to explore whether that's even possible. You think I actually relish the thought of closely moderating a brand-new bulletin board? Exsqueeze me?)

Ed Williams said:

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=4488

Seems that the local populace is not overly fond of their favorite son...

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His reputation definitely precedes him. I'll let you in on a little secret, too. Back when "Larry Clodhopper" was leaving anti-PA messages in PAers' guestbooks, the e-mail address was traced back to netcrafters.net, which just happens to host a site for AmErica.

Here's another author trying to get out of thier contract. She is told the same thing as everyone else. I just can't believe these people and their holier-than-thou attitude.


http://www.badbusinessbureau.com/reports/ripoff126840.htm

T42 said:

... PA a letter stating that I wanted results by the end of the day and they are so dumb that they sent me another persons letter.


"...is sheer nonsense, and does nothing but clarity the attorney's credibility."

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Sorry, I know there's a boatload of crap in their email, but this just stood out and smacked me upside the head. CLARITY?? My God, they can't even insult someone with proper English. Calling all Editor Nazis...damn, where is an editor when you need one? Oh, sorry, they're knee deep in Spell Check.

Literary Lola said:

Sorry, I know there's a boatload of crap in their email, but this just stood out and smacked me upside the head. CLARITY?? My God, they can't even insult someone with proper English. Calling all Editor Nazis...damn, where is an editor when you need one? Oh, sorry, they're knee deep in Spell Check.

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You're a better editor than I am, Lola -- I didn't even catch that literary gem.

It appears that Larry owns NetCrafters. Because of that, I doubt that any reports to PA's ISP would be effective since he owns the ISP. This makes for some serious problems regarding copyright violations that might be useful in bringing in a Federal agency.

What I'm suggesting here is that any author whose book rights were reverted and whose book is still being sold by PA should first report that to the ISP that PA operates upon. There's a standard address for such reports. It's always abuse@ISPaddress, so in this case it would be to [email protected] . State your case there and ask that the ISP enforce your copyright as they are required to do by law. If necessary, the ISP should block that site until they remove your copyrighted material. If the ISP refuses, then you have something to bring up with the FTC and the FBI. Perhaps some other agencies as well.

Ed Williams said:

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=4488

Seems that the local populace is not overly fond of their favorite son...

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Oh my goodness. They're having a field day over on that Frederick board about their dealings with the infamous Mr. Clopper. Seems he mananged to piss everyone off. LOL. Once a questionable businessman, always a questionable businessman. Veddy interersting, indeed.

Nicole, there are a couple of older PA threads on this board and a couple (at least) on the Take It Outside board. I don't think Jenna would have any objection to a discussion/invitation such as you're proposing taking place on one of those (resurrected) threads. She just doesn't want any new PA-specific threads started.

Nicole, it's a noble idea....

...and you know I respect you greatly, but this is my opinion - a board constructed to encourage pro-PA people to post will have a hard time getting off the ground. The PA believers are conditioned to believe that we are the enemy, and if we were in any way sponsoring the proposed board they would be afraid to post for fear the New Three Stooges would have them excommunicated.

One thing that does seem to be helping is the media coverage PA has recently received. Most people, other than the most ardent PAvidians, will take a hard look at what an entity like the AP or Washington Post has to say. I also think "Atlanta Nights" is a powerful tool in our arsenal. We aren't swaying everyone, but we're definitely making progress. Sadly, the most pro-PA people would probably have to see Moe-randa, Larry, or Curlem hauled off to jail before they would suspect that PA is a scam. And even that might not be enough, sometimes if you want to believe something badly enough you are going to continue to believe it no matter what.

And Nicole - if we give it a shot and it works, I will be proud to admit to you that I was wrong...

Ed Williams said:

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=4488

Seems that the local populace is not overly fond of their favorite son...

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So Clopper has a HISTORY of bad business practices as long as his nose...

And his "authors" think he is the answer to their prayers? An expert at publishing.

Sheesh! The man is a loser on ALL accounts. And a crook.

Laura J. Underwood (A Little Bit of Travis Tea--My ATLANTA NIGHTS can poke out your EYE OF ARGON any day!)

DRAGON'S TONGUE forthcoming from Meisha Merlin in the Summer of 2006. Preview the novel at Embiid.net

Me, too, Kelly! I wish there was some way to make them stop with the 11,000 happy authors. I am not happy with PublishAmerica.

The incessant use of "11,000 happy authors" being all the verification that PA needs to justify its actions is reminiscent of how it was touted that the majority of voters who put Nixon in office couldn't be wrong. Plain and simple, PA's use of those numbers is merely part of their brain-washing propaganda to make those who are still on the PA boards believe that they're a majority when in reality the PA authors who are posting are all there are left who even remotely believe the PA garbage. In other words, they don't realize that's why the other authors aren't posting. If more of those other authors would just speak up once publicly, it would do a lot to deflate PA's numbers so that the truth would be more visible.