CNN Report on Ayers/Obama

Takvah said:

Tacking on 4 years to Bush's 8, assuming Barry wins.

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Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Tacking on 4 years to Bush's 8, assuming Barry wins.

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My apologies. I shouldn't have assumed it meant something else.

Bartholomew said:

Wait -- this Ayers person was never convicted? And he's been given awards for his activities in community service?

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Well, OJ was never convicted, either. (Until recently)

But Ayers was, and is, an unrepentant political activist. He believed, and apparently still believes, that violence is an acceptable response to a repressive government. That's actually a very American tradition; if you'll remember, that's how our country was founded in the first place.

A lot of these sixties radicals mellowed as they grew older. They got married. They had kids. Simply put, they grew older. Youth is a time of both innovation and excess. Revolutions are accomplished not by old men with beards, but by young men (also with beards) in their twenties. Lenin was 25 when first arrested for his political activities. Leon Trotsky was held in jail for two years. He was nineteen at the time.

Many radicals, while not giving up their beliefs, have publicly renounced the violence of their earlier days. But few of them regret it, I would wager. Bill Ayers was not trying to bring down the government; he was trying to end the Vietnam war through violent political protest. Thus his famous (and stupid) statement that he regrets not having done more. They simply came to understand it was not an effective strategy for change, not in the US.

So, being still interested in social change, they became lawyers, social activists, and community organizers. And some, in that role, became quite effective -- such as Bill Ayers. He became part of mainstream Chicago politics, and did a lot of good for the underprivileged there. And a lot of people were more interested in whether he could help them get funding for a school now than what he might have done in the past. So, Obama, along with many, many other Chicago pols, came in contact with him in various ways during their careers.

Now, if you believe that Ayers' actions were unforgivable, that whatever he does now doesn't wipe away his past, and that no one, including Obama, should have ever dealt with him in any way, that's a defensible point of view.

But to cast it as "Obama associates with terrorists" and can't be trusted is absolute nonsense.

Williebee said:

Is it possible that "more" is more to stop the war sooner?

We have an interesting thing happening here, in these threads.

We're looking at Ayer's actions of forty years ago. But "we" are looking at them from different POV's. Some of us were 10-15, 20, or 30 years old back then. Some of us weren't even born yet.

Reading through the threads, I can see that it makes a real difference.

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And some of you are victims of our declining educational system, which began in the 60s.

I was in my 30s then, and I had enough education and world travel and perspective to see the difference among sincere protestors, spoiled brat college kids who did not want to give up the good life (as if they would be drafted while in school), Marxist agitators who wanted a communist victory in Viet Nam, and the naieve. For some it was a national collective temper tantrum.

Most of the time I felt as if I was similar to Orwell in Spain (He was shot at by fascists and Stalinists). I was opposed to committing land forces to southeast Asia as were Eisenhower and MacArthur and the findings of Wild Bill Donovan's team in 1953, and I could not stomach the flag burning, anti-grunt, SDS, and Weatherman garbage either. Am I still pissed at LBJ, Simon, the Hahvahd Wuss Kids who knew better than the military and the above mentioned demonstrators? You "betcha'" and the latter have returned with a vengeance with the Obama campaign.

Williebee said:

My apologies. I shouldn't have assumed it meant something else.

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Strange, I knew exactly what he meant when I read it.

Not specious in his case, Coloradoguy. Ayres still wishes he had done more. That is the point on which to focus if nothing else. If Obama walked away from him after his comment on 9/11, then I might concede your point.

The misconstrued comment that had to do with Ayers' book and NOT 9/11? That one? I always took it as he 'wished he could have done more' to stop the war. Not necessarily that what he wished he could have done would have been violent.

I don't care much about McCain's actually-been-convicted Keating friends, and I don't care about this either. Which is the worse crime - affilliation with an organization that engaged in misguided youth activities to protest an unjust war, or raping people for millions of dollars? Depends on your POV, I guess. Certainly both are criminal acts, so therefore both candidates know criminals. Oh, wait, Ayers was never convicted, so I guess it's just McCain who knows actual criminals. (yes, I know, it's splitting hairs, I'm just point out the ridiculousness of both arguments)

ColoradoGuy said:

I met Cathy Wilkerson in 1966, and for a few years afterwards I was deeply involved in the anti-war movement. On those grounds am I unfit for any public office?

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Unfit for anything. Except, possibly a mod.

rugcat said:

Unfit for anything. Except, possibly a mod.

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Biggest group of corrupt, elitist so and so's this side of the galaxy.

McCain has apologized. Sincerely or not, that is up to each of us to decide. Did I miss Ayres apology for the deaths and destruction his organization caused? And remember, the voters could have voted out of office and still can all who support any war by theiir voting in Congress.

Okay, we will not agree, and I promise not to blow you up.

Ageless Stranger said:

Biggest group of corrupt, elitist so and so's this side of the galaxy.

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My bribe was taped?

donroc said:

My bribe was taped?

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Filmed.


Check Youtube.

Arrgggghhhh! Hope they caught my good side.

donroc said:

Not specious in his case, Coloradoguy. Ayres still wishes he had done more. That is the point on which to focus if nothing else. If Obama walked away from him after his comment on 9/11, then I might concede your point.

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I want to add another consideration to this, totally independent of however one wishes to characterize Ayers. Which is: walking away precludes inclusion, understanding, consideration, acknowledgment of plurality, and so forth and so on and so on.

We chose to associate with each other here and might be exclusionary, with Mac's blessing, in order to proceed apace with our shared goals. A country (or indeed our global civilization), however, does not have the luxury of such limited scope or purpose. To exclude the fact of extremes, of outliers, of fringes, of whatever is not centered in the bell curve, is head-in-the-sand self-defeating.

donroc said:

Arrgggghhhh! Hope they caught my good side.

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Call the press!

Donroc has a good side!

The right side of course.

Bartholomew said:

Care to clarify that? Or are you just being mean spirited? I'm getting really sick of the negativity I see in this forum regarding the presidential candidates. How is your statement here any different than wearing a shirt that says, "Palin is a cunt?"

Candidates are open game. Opinions about candidates without sources in softcore are fine. But attacking them? Presenting some nasty piece of garbage like this as fact? Please, stop. Post crap like this on youtube. Our forum is better than this.

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Yeah. Burkowitz repented, so given the logic of many posts, all should be forgiven, and he anyone associating him shouldn't be judged. Have you looked into the educational system that Ayers and Obama promoted?

I'm in shock that few dispute Ayer's actions but are kissing the feet of "the one" so hard they'll excuse ANYthing.

I don't dispute it. BUT in this country we're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, judged by a jury of our peers. He wasn't captured - he surrendered. He wasn't convicted of anything. Ever. He admitted to being a part of a group, but never convicted of a crime.

NOW, in 2008, he's a law abiding citizen, a respected educator, and part of a charity board that works to improve Chicago schools. A board Obama also happens to be a part of.

Ayers is not running. Obama is running. That they're acquainted with each other is inconsequential, since Ayers is NOW an completely free, law abiding citizen never convicted of a crime.

Someone compared him to OJ. Well, OJ WAS found guilty in a civil suit. Or responsible, rather, for the deaths of two people. He also was now found guilty of other crimes. Ayers? Never found guilty. OJ never seemed to leave his past behind, apparently Ayers has. We should too.

Should we all now check the backgrounds of all our Facebook friends to see if they've done anything 40 years ago (OK, 25)? Damned if we're associated with them now.

Look, I certainly don't kiss the feet of "that one." But I hardly see how it can be relevant. It's not like Obama is palling with Ayers discussing how to overthrow this country or making bombs or even engaging in any illegal activities. They're on the same board, working on educational issues. I have friends who have some radical ideologies and who knows what they've done in the past, but hey, they're not in jail, and it also doesn't mean I agree with them. I'm friends with lots of people. I have 170 of them now just on Facebook alone.

I really think McCain and the Obama haters are trying to grasp as the last straw, and that's why they keep drumming on that issue. Ooooh, terrorist! They're trying to use irrational fear as a way to divert from the real issues. And we're having a lot of issues right now as a country! Same old crappy tactics and Americans are not buying it. Well, enough of thinking Americans are not buying it.

ColoradoGuy said:

True, it was a mixed-up time. I was in my twenties and in the middle of it all, got arrested a couple of times, and all the rest. My sister tip-toed down a more dangerous line--her roommate was one of the radicals blown up in the famous "bomb factory" in NYC.

The experience confirmed for me my life-long religious pacifism. By the current standards, it appears, my activities then would make me unfit to hold any public office now. That's why I think the whole Ayers thing is an empty, specious, bloody-shirt sort of argument.

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Everyone, we probably shouldn't be palling around with ColoradoGuy.

Captshady said:

Yeah. Burkowitz repented, so given the logic of many posts, all should be forgiven, and he anyone associating him shouldn't be judged. Have you looked into the educational system that Ayers and Obama promoted?

I'm in shock that few dispute Ayer's actions but are kissing the feet of "the one" so hard they'll excuse ANYthing.

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I think you mean Barack.

It's okay. Swahili confuses me too.

A legal decision does not deprive of us of the right to express our opinions to the contrary.

donroc said:

A legal decision does not deprive of us of the right to express our opinions to the contrary.

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Or our opinions that those opinions are wrong and short-sighted and uninformed.